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How should Submission(strikes) be ruled?
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Tko 34 77%
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Submission (Strikes)   [View Full Version]
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Pookie » Posted 4/8/07 11:48:00PM

This is a crazy technicality, if the system is to be based on merit of ones knowledge, A Submission(Strikes) should be a tko: it was strikes that finished the match.

Can i get feedback from a mod on this please, could we do a petition on this in the MMALounge or something, a poll with all members asking how it should be scored, because in all honesty Submission(Strikes) and TKO(Chokeout) need to be reversed.

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BJ Penn beat Frankie Edgar more times than Benson Henderson beat Frankie Edgar.

MikeBillotto » Posted 6/21/07 12:51:00PM

ufcboss » Posted 6/22/07 2:47:00AM

wolfman » Posted 6/22/07 2:06:00PM

I agree, I didn't pick Sanchez to win by TKO. Yet, I can see the complaint. In the past people have brought up this suggestion and I agree with you. I knew the only way Sanchez was going to beat David was by TKO or decision. Yet, I think the people who picked Sanchez to win by sub. did not envision him winning by submission due to strikes.

In all honesty, their ignorance was bliss for this pick imo. I know anyone can get subbed no matter what their credentials are, see Forrest vs. Shogun. Yet, I assume most people on here knew that David was going to be tough to submit due to his impressive background in BJJ. Mind you he is the only member of BTT who is not Brazilian. So, if you picked Sanchez to win by sub., then good for you. Especially if you imagined David was going to tap due to strikes. It was a definite possibility as he does tend to turtle up when hit. However, I am sure that most people who picked Sanchez by submission figured he would win by an "actual" submission, for lack of better words. Anywho, that is my opinion and view on the subject. I just feel for the people who picked TKO and have been in a way "cheated" out of 7 or 11 points. Feel free to agree or disagree.

emfleek » Posted 11/18/07 4:54:00PM

If the guy physically or verbally taps, it should be ruled as a submission, in my opinion.

Am I missing a point here or something? Do you have an example?

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"I'm like the superhero coming in with the anti-bullsh*t." - Nick Diaz

wolfman » Posted 6/22/07 2:06:00PM


Posted by emfleek

If the guy physically or verbally taps, it should be ruled as a submission, in my opinion.

Am I missing a point here or something? Do you have an example?



Everyone sees your point and officially the ruling is a submission, yet as Pookie mentioned it was the strikes that stopped the fight. Yes, David did "submit" due to strikes, yet you can't deny how this could be seen as a TKO. I respect your opinion though and see your point. I just think that Pookie brings up a good point.

jiujitsufreak74 » Posted 9/24/07 7:28:00PM

i completely and utterly understand where you are coming from and it is certainly valid to think that way. however, i think that they should stay the way they are. technically a submission is not a lock, is as emfleek said when a fighter submits to his opponent and declares that he has lost. whether this be from a lock or punches it should still be a submission. they only thing that causes confusion is that over the years we have called locks and chokes "submissions" due to the fact that they normally lead to a tap out. but just because one is more common to cause a submission doesn't mean the other method isn't a submission. same goes for a choke out. the opponent did not submit and therefore the fight should not be ruled a submission. just because KO usually comes from a strike doesn't mean a KO from a choke is any less of a KO. the opponent is unconscious either way and should be ruled a KO. now, again i totally understand where you are coming from but imo they shouldn't change it. i know it gets frustrating fantasy wise but it is what it is and it is correct.

hyper22 » Posted 2/2/07 7:17:00PM

A submission due to strikes is a SUBMISSION

therefore it was a submission that finihsed the fight, it doesnt matter if it was an RNC or strikes or an armbar.

How can it not be ruled a submission when the fighter SUBMITS?

wolfman » Posted 6/22/07 2:06:00PM


Posted by jiujitsufreak74

i completely and utterly understand where you are coming from and it is certainly valid to think that way. however, i think that they should stay the way they are. technically a submission is not a lock, is as emfleek said when a fighter submits to his opponent and declares that he has lost. whether this be from a lock or punches it should still be a submission. they only thing that causes confusion is that over the years we have called locks and chokes "submissions" due to the fact that they normally lead to a tap out. but just because one is more common to cause a submission doesn't mean the other method isn't a submission. same goes for a choke out. the opponent did not submit and therefore the fight should not be ruled a submission. just because KO usually comes from a strike doesn't mean a KO from a choke is any less of a KO. the opponent is unconscious either way and should be ruled a KO. now, again i totally understand where you are coming from but imo they shouldn't change it. i know it gets frustrating fantasy wise but it is what it is and it is correct.



Very true and I agree overall. It's hard because I see how both sides are "correct", as do you. I just feel that this site should have a vote on the matter of the ruling. Unfortunately, not everyone would vote and probably would not get an overwhelming majority to overturn the current point system. So, the official ruling will be this sites ruling as well. Which is fine, I just think the suggestion is reasonable and worthy of debate.

Pookie » Posted 4/8/07 11:48:00PM

I understand your arguements, BUT IMO the way points should be given out is in a manner reflective of knowledge in the sport.

No one who had submission picked thought that it was because he was going to give up when he got punched. 99% of people at the very least thought it was going to be by a grappling manuever causing the tapout.

It's rewarding luck over skill in this case (and most cases that this occurs) and i feel strongly that there should be a pinned poll in the Main threads about it done by the mods.

Please, let us vote on this matter.


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BJ Penn beat Frankie Edgar more times than Benson Henderson beat Frankie Edgar.

hyper22 » Posted 2/2/07 7:17:00PM


Posted by Pookie

No one who had submission picked thought that it was because he was going to give up when he got punched. 99% of people at the very least thought it was going to be by a grappling manuever causing the tapout.





How can you possibly act as if you know the motives behind peoples picks?

I picked Diego by sub, it doesnt matter if I thought Diego was going to RNC him or Armbar him or pound him out until Bielkheden tapped. The point is Bielkheden SUBMITED.

He didnt want anymore of the fight and tapped, how this is even an issue is beyond me, the man submited.

wolfman » Posted 6/22/07 2:06:00PM


I understand your arguements, BUT IMO the way points should be given out is in a manner reflective of knowledge in the sport. No one who had submission picked thought that it was because he was going to give up when he got punched. 99% of people at the very least thought it was going to be by a grappling manuever causing the tapout.

It's rewarding luck over skill in this case (and most cases that this occurs) and i feel strongly that there should be a pinned poll in the Main threads about it done by the mods.

Please, let us vote on this matter.






That is what I was trying to get at with my original post. You were just more blunt about it.

wolfman » Posted 6/22/07 2:06:00PM


Posted by hyper22


Posted by Pookie

No one who had submission picked thought that it was because he was going to give up when he got punched. 99% of people at the very least thought it was going to be by a grappling manuever causing the tapout.





How can you possibly act as if you know the motives behind peoples picks?

I picked Diego by sub, it doesnt matter if I thought Diego was going to RNC him or Armbar him or pound him out until Bielkheden tapped. The point is Bielkheden SUBMITED.

He didnt want anymore of the fight and tapped, how this is even an issue is beyond me, the man submited.



Let's logically try and think outside the box. We see your point, can't you at least see our point(s)? Of course he can't obviously know the motives behind everyones' picks, you and I both know this. Yet let's think about this. When most people select a fighter to win by submission I would imagine they select him to win by an "actual" submission. For instance, a RNC or armbar as you mentioned.

Yes, submission due to strikes in not uncommon, but in all honesty most of us do not usually select submission to reflect "due to strikes". I know I am making an assumption here as well, yet I have to agree with Pookie that most due not pick submission for that exact reasoning. Of course, there are always exceptions where someone may have picked for that reason. I just think you need to stop looking at this as black and white and try and see what we arguing.

Kpro » Posted 1/27/07 9:53:00PM

I disagree with the premise of the question as I've given it quite a bit of thought, and used to feel that way. The remedy is not to rule a Submission (Strikes) as a TKO and a TKO (Rear Naked Choke) as a Sub, as that is truly not the case by technicality.

The only proper remedy would be to choose Strikes or Hold as the finishing maneuver as that clearly differentiates the finish, whether they tap from Strikes or pass out from a Sub or not.

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If I was 50 years younger I'd kick your ass!

Pookie » Posted 4/8/07 11:48:00PM


Posted by Kpro

I disagree with the premise of the question as I've given it quite a bit of thought, and used to feel that way. The remedy is not to rule a Submission (Strikes) as a TKO and a TKO (Rear Naked Choke) as a Sub, as that is truly not the case by technicality.

The only proper remedy would be to choose Strikes or Hold as the finishing maneuver as that clearly differentiates the finish, whether they tap from Strikes or pass out from a Sub or not.



I understand, but why do we have to stick by it because its a technicality?

_______________________________________
BJ Penn beat Frankie Edgar more times than Benson Henderson beat Frankie Edgar.

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