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KOS - Best Wreslter In MMA?

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Tailgunner

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Jackelope you are probably the only person in the MMA world who thinks KOS outwrestled GSP in that fight.

99% of the MMA world has commented on how GSP beat KOS at his own game, which as everyone knows is wrestling.

What else can you call it?

Post #31   9/3/07 7:41:23PM   

grappler0000

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Posted by Tailgunner

Jackelope you are probably the only person in the MMA world who thinks KOS outwrestled GSP in that fight.

99% of the MMA world has commented on how GSP beat KOS at his own game, which as everyone knows is wrestling.

What else can you call it?



The problem is that he is too busy trying to be right instead of looking at the situation objectively. Everyone knows it wasn't a pure wrestling match, but it doesn't change the fact the GSP was able to dominate the wrestling aspect of the fight. Nobody here has said that GSP could beat Koscheck in a straight up wrestling match, but that's what he insinuates in each rebuttal. Either way, I think I'm probably about done with pressing the issue.

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Post #32   9/3/07 8:10:46PM   

jgtribbett

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Posted by SpiderSilva

GSP makes all westlters look stupid
KOS could be untill they sign Lesaner



kos could be... what? not the best wreslter and courture would through lesnar's ass around

Post #33   9/4/07 12:16:06AM   

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Posted by Tailgunner

Jackelope you are probably the only person in the MMA world who thinks KOS outwrestled GSP in that fight.

99% of the MMA world has commented on how GSP beat KOS at his own game, which as everyone knows is wrestling.

What else can you call it?



Yeah, you're not getting what I'm saying. I never said Kos dominated GSP in a wrestling match. I'm done with this as obviously I'm not getting through. I just don't think people appreciate the scope of what WRESTLING really is and I hate seeing people write on the internet who equate MMA grappling on the ground to WRESTLING. When some ignorant person writes Koscheck got out "wrestled" by GSP it insinuates all of the sudden to the mostly ignorant fans (ignorant when it comes to knowledge about wrestling) that some guy like GSP can dominate wrestling greats like Koscheck in a straight WRESTLING match up. Which is a terrible assumption and an insult to the WRESTLING community as a whole.

So for the last time- GSP did not WRESTLE Koscheck. They were in an MMA bout which contained some ground fighting.

When a person says something like


99% of the MMA world has commented on how GSP beat KOS at his own game, which as everyone knows is wrestling.


It really speaks volumes about their ignorance on the wrestling game since that MMA fight was not a WRESTLING match. I'd hate to see that equation forment into a mass ignorance of people (which unfortunately it already has) who equate MMA grappling with collegiate or greco roman wrestling.

Post #34   9/4/07 5:43:20PM   

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IMO, this thread has gotten to the point equivalent to arguing about whether throwing a punch in the stand-up punching is boxing or some other striking martial art.

Wrestling, BJJ, Judo, etc. have a large degree of overlap in the techniques used. Some are used for the same reasons and some aren't.

For example. There are a number of holds in judo used to pin your opponent. So if I'm a judo guy and I was fighting a wrestler and was able to hold him down for an extended period of time. Let's say for simplicity sake that that was the only action on the ground.

Did I "out-judo" him because I am a judoka? Or did I out-wrestle him because he is a wrestler?

Like wise, in wrestling you don't want to be pinned to your back. But in BJJ you might let your opponent up to get a submission. Does that mean that the wrestler technically out wrestled the BJJ guy because he got up?

All in all I think this is a case of semantics and that's it.

Post #35   9/4/07 6:25:42PM   

NatedawgThaM

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Kos is a GREAT wrestler and better then GSP. GSP is just all around better and an all around great MMA fighter so there was tons of factors that led into GSOP's dominate victory. Every wrestler gets taking down. Doesent mean the others a better wrestler...

My chocie is Kevin Randleman or Mark Coieman. Both explosive as a mother and once they have your leg they don't let go!

Theres only few that can say they have stopped a Kevin or Mark takedown...

great wrestlers with so much wasted potiential if only they new basic sub. defense. They need to hire a simple JJ instructor!!!

Post #36   9/4/07 7:15:50PM   

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Post #37   9/4/07 9:15:22PM   

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Posted by metal_mecca43


Posted by SpiderSilva

GSP makes all westlters look stupid
KOS could be untill they sign Lesaner



kos could be... what? not the best wreslter and courture would through lesnar's ass around



lesnar would destroy couture in terms of wrestling...thats not even close.

Post #38   9/4/07 9:56:43PM   

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Posted by Jackelope

When some ignorant person writes Koscheck got out "wrestled" by GSP it insinuates all of the sudden to the mostly ignorant fans (ignorant when it comes to knowledge about wrestling) that some guy like GSP can dominate wrestling greats like Koscheck in a straight WRESTLING match up. Which is a terrible assumption and an insult to the WRESTLING community as a whole.



I'm sorry that you take the statement so personally, but nobody has said that GSP could beat Koscheck in a wrestling match...in fact I've pointed out several times that I definitely didn't mean that, yet you still keep treating the situation that way. We all get it...it wasn't a wrestling match. I'm pretty sure that all of us here realized that we were watching an MMA fight. As stupid as you think everyone else is, we do realize it. Please stop trying to read between the lines.


Posted by Jackelope

So for the last time- GSP did not WRESTLE Koscheck. They were in an MMA bout which contained some ground fighting.



Who said anything about ground fighting? Rush made a great point that there is a lot of overlap in grappling styles...which, if you reference many of my previous posts, I intentially avoided included the ground game as it was a grey area. Rather than get into an even lengthier debate, I stuck stictly to takedowns in my statement (which I'm sure everyone here can attribute their takedown/defense to their wrestling training). GSP took Koscheck down at will and stuffed all but of Koscheck's (I think it may have actually been a reversal, but don't remember off hand). If you put everything else aside, GSP's wrestling was better...without a doubt. (warning: this statement only applies to the referenced MMA match and not to a non-extistant wrestling match)


Posted by Jackelope

When a person says something like


99% of the MMA world has commented on how GSP beat KOS at his own game, which as everyone knows is wrestling.


It really speaks volumes about their ignorance on the wrestling game since that MMA fight was not a WRESTLING match. I'd hate to see that equation forment into a mass ignorance of people (which unfortunately it already has) who equate MMA grappling with collegiate or greco roman wrestling.



First of all, the whole Collegiate/Greco Roman conversation was completly seperate from the Koscheck/GSP discussion. I'm sure that there are several people on this site that have a plethora of wreslting knowledge...and plenty that have noone. But, that doesn't matter, as I am actually knowledgable and made what I feel was a valid statement. My statement was "he(GSP) did infact beat him(Kos) at his own game (wrestling)". You've called my statements ignorant numerous times.

I was a better wrestler than him. - GSP (referencing the fight)

Next time I'm gonna work on my wrestling. - Koscheck (post fight)

George, one of the most impressive things in this fight, is that you out-wrestled the wrestler. - Joe Rogan (post fight w/ GSP)

Now, I only have one question...are GSP, Koscheck, and Rogan all ignorant or are you? I am awaiting your witty response about how it wasn't a wrestling match or that I'm ignorant.

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Post #39   9/4/07 10:02:48PM   

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Now, I only have one question...are GSP, Koscheck, and Rogan all ignorant or are you? I am awaiting your witty response about how it wasn't a wrestling match or that I'm ignorant.



No Grappler you, GSP, Kos, Rogan and 99% of the MMA world are all ignorant, why don't you learn what REAL wrestling is all about!!

Post #40   9/4/07 11:06:58PM   

roadking95th

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Back to the original question...No. Believe-in-judo81 listed the top 5. You could prob mix and match their rank and have an arguement but... Of course, by "wrestling" I am ONLY refering to Folkstyle, Freestyle and GrecoRoman, not Judo, BJJ, Sambo, or Catch, which would all would have different fighters listed in the top 5.


Posted by Believe-in-judo81

1.Mark Coleman
2. Matt Lindland
3.Kevin Randleman
4.Dan Henderson
5.Randy Couture

Those guys are the best pure wrestlers in MMA right now, you can argue it all you want but their records and performances state otherwise.

Post #41   9/5/07 12:06:42AM   

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Grappler, I'm not insulting your wrestling knowledge. I see that this has turned into something ridiculous and I'm sorry to anybody who's been annoyed by it.

I never once considered you to be one of the people I spoke about when I said that there is a number of "ignorant" people when it comes to wrestling. Obviously since about post 2 or 3 of mine and your discussion I've seen that you have some knowledge of the wrestling game. So if you take offense to the term ignorant know first off that I wasn't calling you wrestling ignorant. Second off know that ignorant is not meant the way I am using it as an offensive term it just means somebody lacks the knowledge because they've not been exposed to it.

As for quoting Joe Rogan on what he said- that is exactly what I'm talking about when people throw the term wrestling around and it gives the vast majority of the audience who does not know wrestling the impression that what occured in the octagon had something to do with a collegiate form of wrestling. If Joe or anybody else for that matter had said from the beginning that GSP's Jiu Jitsu was dominant over Koscheck's wrestling, or he beat Koscheck at the ground game I would have been just fine with that.

Instead the evil underground subcultural world of wrestling-ignorant MMA fans (whom I've started a personal crusade against to snuff them from the earth) has all of the sudden been exposed to the notion that if the two were to compete in a collegiate wrestling match a celebrated division I wrestling champion can be out "wrestled" by GSP because he is just that naturally gifted of an athlete thanks to the supposedly "know it all" Joe Rogan. Therefore throwing out all of the hard work Kos, or any other decorated wrestler has put in towards actual collegiate wrestling because obviously it requires no skill or hard work, just being "the most athletic man in MMA today!" (As Joe would say about GSP)

If you need a brighter example (although a bit exaggerated, I'll admit) To me it's like hearing people say Chuck Liddell is a better basketball player than Michael Jordan if Michael Jordan was to play Chuck Liddell in a basketball game and Chuck Liddell punched the shit out of him and scored more baskets. Obviously if he was doing that, they weren't in a basketball game, yet if some announcer comes up and says "You beat Michael Jordan at his own game!" then you'll get some idiot who's never played Basketball in his life thinking "YEAH, he sure did, Cletus!"

The term wrestling gets thrown around and yeah, I do take it personally. What can I say, I am, was, and always will be a wrestler. Not to mention a hard headed one who hates losing, and will fight to the bitter end in case you couldn't tell.



Really I can't break it down more Jerry's Kids than this. If you can't get what I'm trying to illustrate then I'm sorry. I guess I'm just too retarded to get my point across, and that's why I'll always be a WRESTLER and never a LAWYER! haha

Oh, and whoever that other dude is trying to poke fun and be an idiot.. really.. save that. I've got respect for Grappler because he's willing to talk it out like a man, not throw around stupid tiny little insults to try to piss people off. Although the occasional smart ass comments he and I have made to each other are pretty funny, I think.

Post #42   9/5/07 2:42:51AM   

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Post #43   9/5/07 4:48:55AM   

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Jackelope, I think we probably are just looking from two different angles here, which prevents us from seeing eye to eye. I do understand much of what you are saying, but I don't feel we are on the same page....not to fault either of us, as it's just the nature of debate. Anywho, I'm glad we were able to keep it somewhat civilized. It's a difficult task at times, but it's what seperates this site from that other infamous MMA site

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Post #44   9/5/07 3:45:29PM   
 
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