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Massachusetts commission reviews controversial bout, will discuss rule changes

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grappler0000

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The Massachusetts State Athletic Commission said it will look into modifying its rules following a controversial amateur bout that took place in April.

"The commission agreed it deserves careful examination," Terrel Harris, a spokesperson for the MSAC, on Friday wrote in an email to MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com).

At a meeting planned for October, the commission's medical advisory board is expected to offer an opinion on whether a "per se rule" is needed to immediately end matches in which a fighter loses consciousness from a submission hold.

A per se rule is defined as a generalized rule applied without consideration for specific circumstances.

The commission addressed the amateur fight during a meeting on Thursday and decided that further review was necessary.

The bout at the center of the debate took place April 20 at a commission-sanctioned event held in Chicopee, Mass., called "Warrior Nation Xtreme Fighters Alliance: Warrior Nation III." The bantamweight contest took a bizarre turn after one combatant, Justin Kristie, applied a triangle choke that caused his opponent, David Baxter, to perform what appeared to be a tapping motion and then go unconscious at the end of the first round...

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Post #1   8/11/12 11:35:24AM   

bigrand826

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Man, that was pretty bad. Everyone was in the cage like the fight was over then they say to get ready for a second round. I didn't time it, but that was likely more than the 1 minute allowed between rounds.

Post #2   8/11/12 1:14:53PM   

pmoney

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Last time I checked, a fighter tapping and subsequently losing consciousness is usually the end of the match.... did I miss something?

Post #3   8/11/12 2:13:40PM   

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Outside of safety and medical issues I don't see too much wrong here. The round ended without someone being finished. I didn't see anything that definitively constitutes a tapout. There was no submission, no KO nor did the referee intervene to stop the fight. The bell rang to end the round. As far as the extra time between rounds I would bet it is because the available powers that be were probably trying to figure it out and then convey the message to the referee that the fight needs to go on. The only real question is...for health reasons should a fighter be allowed to compete after being obviously unconscious? I don't think so. The guy wanted to fight and ended up winning it though. This is a tough debate with a lot of variables, gray areas and differing opinions. I am skeptical about this statement where there is no saving by the bell. I see all kinds of fights where people are saved by the bell. How many times do you see a guy caught in a choke and the bell rings as he is about to tap or go to sleep? How many times do you see the bell save some guy who is getting his brains beat out? I see these things an awful lot. So where is the "line"? One side is claiming that unconsciousness is the line....if so...is that in print?

Post #4   8/11/12 3:28:16PM   

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Posted by Sir_Karl

Outside of safety and medical issues I don't see too much wrong here. The round ended without someone being finished. I didn't see anything that definitively constitutes a tapout. There was no submission, no KO nor did the referee intervene to stop the fight. The bell rang to end the round. As far as the extra time between rounds I would bet it is because the available powers that be were probably trying to figure it out and then convey the message to the referee that the fight needs to go on. The only real question is...for health reasons should a fighter be allowed to compete after being obviously unconscious? I don't think so. The guy wanted to fight and ended up winning it though. This is a tough debate with a lot of variables, gray areas and differing opinions. I am skeptical about this statement where there is no saving by the bell. I see all kinds of fights where people are saved by the bell. How many times do you see a guy caught in a choke and the bell rings as he is about to tap or go to sleep? How many times do you see the bell save some guy who is getting his brains beat out? I see these things an awful lot. So where is the "line"? One side is claiming that unconsciousness is the line....if so...is that in print?



I don't really see the grey area here. It comes down the simple question. Is the fighter awake? No - fight is over. Yes - go another round.

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Post #5   8/11/12 5:57:15PM   

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Posted by Sir_Karl

Outside of safety and medical issues I don't see too much wrong here. The round ended without someone being finished. I didn't see anything that definitively constitutes a tapout. There was no submission, no KO nor did the referee intervene to stop the fight. The bell rang to end the round. As far as the extra time between rounds I would bet it is because the available powers that be were probably trying to figure it out and then convey the message to the referee that the fight needs to go on. The only real question is...for health reasons should a fighter be allowed to compete after being obviously unconscious? I don't think so. The guy wanted to fight and ended up winning it though. This is a tough debate with a lot of variables, gray areas and differing opinions. I am skeptical about this statement where there is no saving by the bell. I see all kinds of fights where people are saved by the bell. How many times do you see a guy caught in a choke and the bell rings as he is about to tap or go to sleep? How many times do you see the bell save some guy who is getting his brains beat out? I see these things an awful lot. So where is the "line"? One side is claiming that unconsciousness is the line....if so...is that in print?



The round ended with a fighter unconscious. That's a technical submission. You can be saved by the bell if you're in a hold and still awake but if you're out, you're out and the fight is over.

There should be no instances where you're woken up and allowed to continue fighting.

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Post #6   8/11/12 6:41:41PM   

machodog76

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The round ended with a fighter unconscious. That's a technical submission. You can be saved by the bell if you're in a hold and still awake but if you're out, you're out and the fight is over.

There should be no instances where you're woken up and allowed to continue fighting.
This ^^^

Post #7   8/11/12 8:07:29PM   

bjj1605

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Posted by FlashyG



The round ended with a fighter unconscious. That's a technical submission. You can be saved by the bell if you're in a hold and still awake but if you're out, you're out and the fight is over.

There should be no instances where you're woken up and allowed to continue fighting.



Exactly.

The guy who won this fight by submission got robbed and its really a shame.

Post #8   8/11/12 9:02:32PM   

Lungsofsteel

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ya i posted this earlier last month, that ref should be banned along with all those doctors thats insane

Last edited 8/12/12 12:41AM server time by Lungsofsteel
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Post #9   8/12/12 12:41:06AM   

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Just so I'm clear, when a guy "Goes to sleep" from a choke it's because his brain is not receiving an adequate amount of blood to do it's job right? I'm not making that up am I? So this ref, and these doctors decided that an individual who's body had essentially shut down because it couldn't function properly due to lack of blood flow to the brain could get up and fight a second round? Do you guys remember the Thiago Silva/Machida fight? At the very end of the first round Machida Ko's Silva but Silva was recovered within a matter of seconds. If you look at the official time of the KO it was 4:59 of round 1 but if you go back and watch the ref is jumping in to break up the fight for the end of the round as Machida is landing the strike. This would be the equivalent of letting Silva get up in that fight and fight the second round. I understand a KO and a Submission are two different things, but when it comes to being choked out unconscious both are a direct result of your body seeking to prevent you from additional trauma. I'm with the previous posters these overseers should be axed from the sport.

Post #10   8/12/12 7:58:55AM   

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I agree that the fight should have been stopped by the ref (from the tap or from him going out to end the round), but I don't feel the medical staff were wrong, or to blame, in their assessment that he was fit to continue. From a blood choke held for that short of span and him regaining consciousness as quickly as he did, the oxygen in his brain tissue would be normal by the start of the next round and unless he was having vision difficulty or impaired speech/motor skills there was no risk in allowing him to continue fighting from the medical staff's perspective.

I don't like that this rule even has to be put in place because if a ref sees that he should stop the fight at that point (although he missed the tap, so I'm not sure he knows the responsibilities of being a ref). Don't defer to asking medical staff if he can continue when the guy just tapped and is unconscious to end the round. That should be a swift determination by the ref that the fight is over. Be a ref and make the call.

EDIT: Yeah, jjock, it's the oxygen blood flow reaching the brain tissue. Air choke's are rarely used as they take more effort, time, and are more dangerous. Blood chokes will put pressure on the arteries on both sides of your neck (Straight down from the ears, in line with the adam's apple. Basically where you check your pulse.) without damaging the throat.

Last edited 8/12/12 9:26AM server time by Kpro
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Post #11   8/12/12 9:17:07AM   

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now we got this tyrone mims situation....damn this is making this sport look bad and its the refs and doctors....we needs people like bas rutten reffing

Post #12   8/12/12 9:19:09PM   

KungFuMaster

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I agree with the masses but on another note - what a great show of heart from the fighter who was literally out of it at the end of the first round.

That chokee's adrenaline shot up to a new and higher level while the choker took an adrenaline dump when he thought he won the fight.

The most bizarre moments of this fight is when the chokee laid there at the end of the first round while twitching as if he was having a seizure and yet the ref looked to be asking, "Hey man, are you OK? Can you continue? A homeless bum would have known what to do. ( steal his wallet and ask someone to call for paramedics )

Now, Kpro is correct. ( I believe it was Kpro ) The ring doctor virtually had no choice in letting the fighter continue if the fighter demonstrated coherency. I don't know what powers of authority ring doctors have but in this case - the ref already made an error by not calling the fight - so that leaves the doctor with only one objective and that is to determine if the fighter can continue.

Post #13   8/13/12 12:58:38AM   

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Just want to point out that this exact same thing happened in 1999 with Chuck Liddell vs Jeremy Horn, and in an age of basically made-up rules, the ref called the fight when Liddell was clearly waking up from the choke. As stated above, it's a technical submission.

On a similar note, Machida vs Thiago Silva was actually called after the bell when Silva was knocked out. Time says there was 1 second left, but if you watch the fight, it's really a moment after the bell sounds that the ref waves it off.

That's two examples of referees making smart judgement calls, and I wish the ammy ref in the above fight had done the same.

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Post #14   8/14/12 11:10:17AM