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Fedor Emelianenko Officially Retires

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Posted by zephead

Thanks for everything you did for the sport. I hope you have as much success in your postfight career as you had in your fight career.



I wish he could read this. Thanks to DCRage's ban hammer, he can not.

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Post #46   6/23/12 3:47:57PM   

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Posted by jlock003

That being said you (generic not Al) can't ignore his recent losses and write them off. Hell, most Fedor fans chalked up the Werdum loss to getting caught, and the Hendo loss to an early stoppage.



It depends on what you mean by "ignore his recent losses."

As in, for what purpose are we ignoring them.

Literally speaking, no, you can't ignore the losses because they happened.

But when it comes to judging his legacy, you absolutely can ignore them. All of his losses occurred late in his career when he was past his physical prime.

This guy beat all of the best HWs of his era. He dominated most of them. He beat guys like Noguiera, Coleman, Cro Cop, Randleman, and Hunt just to name a few.

Its really easy to pick apart a guys record after the fact. People have done the same to Chuck Liddell.

But the fact of the matter is, at the time no-one could be sure that Fedor would win those fights. He fought great fighters and they were usually larger than him.

I'm not gonna sit here and butt heads with you. You have your opinion and I have mine. But I just have one question.....


If Fedor isn't the greatest HW of all time, who is? Tim Sylvia? Brock Lesnar? Randy Couture?

IMO no one else has even come close to earning that title.

Post #47   6/23/12 4:04:27PM   

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Posted by bjj1605


Posted by jlock003

That being said you (generic not Al) can't ignore his recent losses and write them off. Hell, most Fedor fans chalked up the Werdum loss to getting caught, and the Hendo loss to an early stoppage.



It depends on what you mean by "ignore his recent losses."

As in, for what purpose are we ignoring them.

Literally speaking, no, you can't ignore the losses because they happened.

But when it comes to judging his legacy, you absolutely can ignore them. All of his losses occurred late in his career when he was past his physical prime.

This guy beat all of the best HWs of his era. He dominated most of them. He beat guys like Noguiera, Coleman, Cro Cop, Randleman, and Hunt just to name a few.

Its really easy to pick apart a guys record after the fact. People have done the same to Chuck Liddell.

But the fact of the matter is, at the time no-one could be sure that Fedor would win those fights. He fought great fighters and they were usually larger than him.

I'm not gonna sit here and butt heads with you. You have your opinion and I have mine. But I just have one question.....


If Fedor isn't the greatest HW of all time, who is? Tim Sylvia? Brock Lesnar? Randy Couture?

IMO no one else has even come close to earning that title.



I'm really not trying to butt heads with you at all. I'm happy to have someone challenge/question my view who can string coherent sentences together instead of calling me a jackass for not appreciating the sport's heritage. If someone were to ask me, "Who was the greatest boxer of all time?" I would say something along the lines of Sugar Ray Robinson, or Muhammad Ali and the reason for that would be because they have withstood the test of time and you could stack them up skill for skill with any boxer in their respective divisions and they would have a major advantage. I don't see how anyone could say Fedor (even in his prime) would have an advantage over a JDS today, an Overeem today, a Carwin today, a Velasquez today, even a Lesnar today. Perhaps the confusion is with my understanding of the "All time" argument because that transcends time. Who would I call the greatest heavyweight of all time? I wouldn't. I wouldn't call Anderson Silva the greatest middleweight of all time today. The sport is too young and is still evolving.

Last edited 6/23/12 4:29PM server time by jlock003
Edit note/reason: n/a

Post #48   6/23/12 4:28:10PM   

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Posted by jlock003


Posted by bjj1605


Posted by jlock003

That being said you (generic not Al) can't ignore his recent losses and write them off. Hell, most Fedor fans chalked up the Werdum loss to getting caught, and the Hendo loss to an early stoppage.



It depends on what you mean by "ignore his recent losses."

As in, for what purpose are we ignoring them.

Literally speaking, no, you can't ignore the losses because they happened.

But when it comes to judging his legacy, you absolutely can ignore them. All of his losses occurred late in his career when he was past his physical prime.

This guy beat all of the best HWs of his era. He dominated most of them. He beat guys like Noguiera, Coleman, Cro Cop, Randleman, and Hunt just to name a few.

Its really easy to pick apart a guys record after the fact. People have done the same to Chuck Liddell.

But the fact of the matter is, at the time no-one could be sure that Fedor would win those fights. He fought great fighters and they were usually larger than him.

I'm not gonna sit here and butt heads with you. You have your opinion and I have mine. But I just have one question.....


If Fedor isn't the greatest HW of all time, who is? Tim Sylvia? Brock Lesnar? Randy Couture?

IMO no one else has even come close to earning that title.



I'm really not trying to butt heads with you at all. I'm happy to have someone challenge/question my view who can string coherent sentences together instead of calling me a jackass for not appreciating the sport's heritage. If someone were to ask me, "Who was the greatest boxer of all time?" I would say something along the lines of Sugar Ray Robinson, or Muhammad Ali and the reason for that would be because they have withstood the test of time and you could stack them up skill for skill with any boxer in their respective divisions and they would have a major advantage. I don't see how anyone could say Fedor (even in his prime) would have an advantage over a JDS today, an Overeem today, a Carwin today, a Velasquez today, even a Lesnar today. Perhaps the confusion is with my understanding of the "All time" argument because that transcends time. Who would I call the greatest heavyweight of all time? I wouldn't. I wouldn't call Anderson Silva the greatest middleweight of all time today. The sport is too young and is still evolving.




Really a prime Fedor couldnt beat Carwin/Overeem/Lesnar?

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Post #49   6/23/12 4:31:12PM   

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Way too much to quote. Again I'm not trying to argue with you, but either I'm not understanding your point, you're not understanding mine, or a little of both. What was his prime? Was his prime over at 30? Was he in his prime when he fought Werdum? He looked good against Hendo. The only fight he looked terrible in was the Silva fight. He can still fight. He just fights the same way he always has. His management hurt him. That was my original point. Had he made the move he needed to and that was offered to him years ago it wouldn't even be a point of contention.

Post #50   6/23/12 4:38:25PM   

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Posted by jlock003

Way too much to quote. Again I'm not trying to argue with you, but either I'm not understanding your point, you're not understanding mine, or a little of both. What was his prime? Was his prime over at 30? Was he in his prime when he fought Werdum? He looked good against Hendo. The only fight he looked terrible in was the Silva fight. He can still fight. He just fights the same way he always has. His management hurt him. That was my original point. Had he made the move he needed to and that was offered to him years ago it wouldn't even be a point of contention.



The post above wasn't me (bjj1605), that was a different poster (Shawn9111).

I basically agree with him though. I personally would pick prime Fedor over any HW currently on the UFC roster. I wouldn't even think to much about it.

To be clear though, your answer to my question is "no one." That's sort of a logical impossibility my friend.

You could say "Fedor is the best HW of all time so far but will soon be surpassed." But what you seem to be saying is "No HW is the best HW."

Out of curiosity, how closely did you follow the sport say.... 8 to 10 years ago.

Post #51   6/24/12 2:06:02AM   

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Fedor is to MMA as Jordan is to basketball.



Michael sucked with the wizards. He had flashes of brilliance but he didn't win a championship with that team and he wasn't the league MVP or the scoring champion or anything like that.



Did that take away from his legacy? No it did not

/ thread

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Post #52   6/24/12 2:21:19AM   

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Posted by bjj1605


Posted by jlock003

Way too much to quote. Again I'm not trying to argue with you, but either I'm not understanding your point, you're not understanding mine, or a little of both. What was his prime? Was his prime over at 30? Was he in his prime when he fought Werdum? He looked good against Hendo. The only fight he looked terrible in was the Silva fight. He can still fight. He just fights the same way he always has. His management hurt him. That was my original point. Had he made the move he needed to and that was offered to him years ago it wouldn't even be a point of contention.



The post above wasn't me (bjj1605), that was a different poster (Shawn9111).

I basically agree with him though. I personally would pick prime Fedor over any HW currently on the UFC roster. I wouldn't even think to much about it.

To be clear though, your answer to my question is "no one." That's sort of a logical impossibility my friend.

You could say "Fedor is the best HW of all time so far but will soon be surpassed." But what you seem to be saying is "No HW is the best HW."

Out of curiosity, how closely did you follow the sport say.... 8 to 10 years ago.



Gotta love when you mistake a fight camp for a person. Regardless, I thought I defined my understanding of greatest heavyweight of all time well, but I can see where you would take issue with my lack of answer as an answer. I've followed the sport "closely" since about 02 and if you look at my posts even from 07 I was saying then that Fedor needed to be fighting top competition in order to cement his legacy as greatest heavyweight of all time. If somebody put together a best heavyweight to date argument I might even be hard pressed to argue against Fedor, but I don't feel like anybody has answered my question about when his prime was over? It seems to me that Fedor fans like to give him credit for his wins over guys like lindland, Sylvia, and Arlovski but want to throw out his losses because he was "past his prime." (by throw out I mean disregard them concerning his all time ranking). My post initially was to say that I still think with better management and a better camp he could be a force to be reckoned with at a lighter weight. Out of curiosity who would you rank as the best lhw, mw, ww, and lhw fighters of all time? Can we name an all time greatest Featherweight, Bantamweight, and Flyweight fighter? If so then I think therein lies the discrepancy.

Post #53   6/24/12 3:21:27AM   

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Fedor reached his prime in terms of skillset and attribute, around 2003-2005. Before his hands started to break every fight. And before he stopped utilizing his grappling as an offensive weapon.

He was still good enough to win against pretty much everyone in the world with just his brawling, but his skillset got more limited and he became much more managable to fight against as he slipped out of his prime.

But he still wrecked Sylvia and Arlovski as a fading star, while they were both Top 5's

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Post #54   6/24/12 7:22:24AM   

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Posted by jlock003
Out of curiosity who would you rank as the best lhw, mw, ww, and lw fighters of all time? Can we name an all time greatest Featherweight, Bantamweight, and Flyweight fighter? If so then I think therein lies the discrepancy.



Easy Money.

Jon Jones
Anderson Silva
Georges St. Pierre
BJ Penn
Jose Aldo
Dominick Cruz
& No, because i don't know more than 3 of them.

All-time essentially means up to this moment. As someone in the future can surpass them, but that also applies to all sports. So you wouldnt be able to name a Boxing All time fighter either based on this discrepancy.

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Post #55   6/24/12 7:25:20AM   

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Posted by Pookie


Posted by jlock003
Out of curiosity who would you rank as the best lhw, mw, ww, and lw fighters of all time? Can we name an all time greatest Featherweight, Bantamweight, and Flyweight fighter? If so then I think therein lies the discrepancy.



Easy Money.

Jon Jones
Anderson Silva
Georges St. Pierre
BJ Penn
Jose Aldo
Dominick Cruz
& No, because i don't know more than 3 of them.

All-time essentially means up to this moment. As someone in the future can surpass them, but that also applies to all sports. So you wouldnt be able to name a Boxing All time fighter either based on this discrepancy.



I disagree entirely with the aforementioned understanding of greatest of all time, BUT framed in that light I would concede, but I can foresee in the very near future a current heavyweight surpassing the greatness of Fedor. I still don't know how Liddell or Wanderlei wouldn't be #1 on that list with the same criteria, but I've clearly got a different understanding than most people at least on this subject at this time :) Again though I appreciate the explanation and solid logic. It's hard to argue with people who have a system and it's refreshing to see. Oh and I meant I would concede that with the understanding of greatest of all time that you've laid out that Fedor would fit that description. I want that to be clear. I just wouldn't define the Greatest of any weight class in mma to date because of the sports evolution but I seem to be drastically in the minority there so well done :)

Post #56   6/24/12 1:17:09PM   

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Posted by jlock003
Brett Rogers gave Fedor the fight of his life etc...None of that is meant to take away from his legacy it is forever cemented in the minds of all who were privileged enough to see him fight at the height of organized mma in Japan. Calling him the best Heavyweight of all time however is like calling Miguel Torres the best bantamweight of all time or Wanderlei Silva the best 205'er of all time. That's all I'm saying.



1) Rogers did not give Fedor the fight of his life. He did a little better than expected but he was in no way dominating that fight

2) Up until now, Torres is the best bantamweight in history. Time will eventually say otherwise but at this point in time, iirc, he has more title wins and defenses in a major organization than anyone else. By this time next year Cruz may beat Faber/Barao and someone else and could be considered the BW GOAT but until then Torres had a dominating run and took out anyone who was at the top of the division and was considered top 5 p4p...do you consider Cruz top 5?

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Post #57   6/25/12 8:12:36PM   

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Posted by george112

Fedor is to MMA as Jordan is to basketball.

Michael sucked with the wizards. He had flashes of brilliance but he didn't win a championship with that team and he wasn't the league MVP or the scoring champion or anything like that.

Did that take away from his legacy? No it did not

/ thread


I'll throw in Randy Johnson to this as well

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Post #58   6/25/12 8:15:21PM   

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Posted by jlock003

I disagree entirely with the aforementioned understanding of greatest of all time, BUT framed in that light I would concede, but I can foresee in the very near future a current heavyweight surpassing the greatness of Fedor. I still don't know how Liddell or Wanderlei wouldn't be #1 on that list with the same criteria, but I've clearly got a different understanding than most people at least on this subject at this time :) Again though I appreciate the explanation and solid logic. It's hard to argue with people who have a system and it's refreshing to see. Oh and I meant I would concede that with the understanding of greatest of all time that you've laid out that Fedor would fit that description. I want that to be clear. I just wouldn't define the Greatest of any weight class in mma to date because of the sports evolution but I seem to be drastically in the minority there so well done :)



so is it safe to say that you dont think Babe Ruth is one of, if not the, greatest of all time? How about Nolan Ryan or Joe Dimaggio? How about Gordie Howe or Maurice Richard for hockey?

btw you still have avoided the question others have asked: who do you put as the #1 HW of all time?

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Post #59   6/25/12 8:19:58PM   

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Posted by emfleek


Posted by zephead

Thanks for everything you did for the sport. I hope you have as much success in your postfight career as you had in your fight career.



I wish he could read this. Thanks to DCRage's ban hammer, he can not.





Sometimes I wish the PG had a "Classics" board with classic threads locked and a list of epic quotes

Post #60   6/25/12 10:29:26PM   
 
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