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SHOGUN signed by UFC!!!!

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JBatch

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Very nicely put Nubby. This is one of the first times I completely agree with you, but that is probably because we usually don;t see eye to eye on Tito Ortiz. lol

There is almost no downside to the UFC buying Pride and giving us unified rules and a judge on all talent because they actually fight each other.

Post #31   5/23/07 5:46:50PM   

warglory

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Posted by nubby

Well not to insult you but you don't have very good business sense. The WWE is still the most lucrative wrestling organization with not a single close competitor. The reason the WWE has seen any down turn is speculated to be a direct result of the increase of popularity in MMA.

If you look at the most recent transition of pride fighters to UFC you will notice they are already starting to get paid more money. So the competition between pride and UFC for talent was actually only existant because the UFC had not reached a high enough profit threshold to justify higher payouts until recently.

Also to say that because a fighter gets paid more they will perform better is just borderline stupidity. Crocop gets paid 300k a fight and his performance has been lackluster at best since entering the octagon. I highly doubt that paying him 500k a fight will garner any better performance from him.

As for having all your money making bouts, timing was never an issue with the UFC, it was all about marketing. The same is still true. Look at every single promotional commercial for UFC 71, it's all about Chuck getting his loss avenged and has nothing to do with some sort of artifical superbowl of MMA. The superbowl of MMA should be every time a belt is up for grabs because it should be the two best fighters going at it.

What's the point in having a belt if everyone knows that there is some one else across the pond that is better with his own belt. Unifying the structure, the rules, the environment. This will make the entire industry better at whole because then the only question is about the fighters and not wether or not pride or bodog or cage rage or ufc has the best fighters. It becomes, who is the best fighter, period?

Notice how people are no longer worried about who is better between Liddell and Rua. You know why? Because we will have an answer soon enough and the stage will no longer be a question because Rua is becoming a UFC fighter. He will be given a few fights to adjust to the new rules, but if he trully is a great fighter he wont have a problem proving it.

Lastly, just because Asia is used to watching MMA in a ring doesn't mean they don't like the UFC. The reason that the UFC isn't big in Japan is because the UFC isn't pushed in Asia. Look at europe... why is it that UFC is blowing up over there? Its from all the promotion. The same will be true when a lot of Japanese MMA stars sign up for the UFC. Imagine the type of support the UFC will see from the Asian fans if Okami can pull off a win against Franklin. They would shit their pants. And frankly I would too.



1. You are seriously trying to tell me that a lack of competition in a capitalistic market equates to good business? This, my friend, is known as a monopoly. The WWE is the most lucrative pro wrestling organization because there is really no threat to them. Yeah, sure, there is TNA, but can anyone seriously say that TNA is going to beat WWE in a television ratings war anytime soon? WWE's most creative years were when they were head to head in the ratings war with WCW back in the late 90's. Once all their competition was bought out, the product became stagnant. Pro wrestling, by the way, is not the only example that I can come up with, this model happens all across the board in business, its common in economics.

2. Money doesn't make fighters fight harder? Tell that to the lower card guys who are getting 5k. Or tell that to the guys who get docked 10% of their purse because they are not pressing the action. Of course the main eventers don't need to worry about money, but a lot of the fighters do. Having a single showdown, every year, would create not only great competition, but hopefully the best performances these "professionals" can offer.

3. Marketing can only take you so far. Dana admitted in an interview that his CFO was worried about how much money they were putting into marketing on the ufc 70 show. How does Dana expect to reach Asian markets which already have several well established organizations when the UFC is blowing its wad on a Western market like the United Kingdom? The UFC doesn't even have full support in the United States. You are talking like the UFC is some unstoppable juggernaut, but the UFC is still wet behind the ears in its present form, and Zuffa can NOT get too cocky by eliminating one of the largest mma markets in the world. It's simply a stupid idea to get rid of PRIDE at this juncture.

Post #32   5/24/07 12:02:30AM   

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Shogun will be fighting either Babalu or better yet Jason Lamebert at UFC 72

There has been a 5th main card fight slot open and its obviously for this, and we will have 10 fights on the card same as 70

Post #33   5/24/07 7:23:50AM   

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Good and Bad in my opinion. Its coo because we will get to see Chuck vs Shogun (given he beats Rampage). But its bad because they are taking more fighters from Pride and putting them in the UFC.

Post #34   5/24/07 7:44:15AM   

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Posted by wkm311

Good and Bad in my opinion. Its coo because we will get to see Chuck vs Shogun (given he beats Rampage). But its bad because they are taking more fighters from Pride and putting them in the UFC.


But why is that bad? Because you like the pride format better?

Post #35   5/24/07 11:04:42AM   

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Posted by warglory


Posted by nubby

Well not to insult you but you don't have very good business sense. The WWE is still the most lucrative wrestling organization with not a single close competitor. The reason the WWE has seen any down turn is speculated to be a direct result of the increase of popularity in MMA.

If you look at the most recent transition of pride fighters to UFC you will notice they are already starting to get paid more money. So the competition between pride and UFC for talent was actually only existant because the UFC had not reached a high enough profit threshold to justify higher payouts until recently.

Also to say that because a fighter gets paid more they will perform better is just borderline stupidity. Crocop gets paid 300k a fight and his performance has been lackluster at best since entering the octagon. I highly doubt that paying him 500k a fight will garner any better performance from him.

As for having all your money making bouts, timing was never an issue with the UFC, it was all about marketing. The same is still true. Look at every single promotional commercial for UFC 71, it's all about Chuck getting his loss avenged and has nothing to do with some sort of artifical superbowl of MMA. The superbowl of MMA should be every time a belt is up for grabs because it should be the two best fighters going at it.

What's the point in having a belt if everyone knows that there is some one else across the pond that is better with his own belt. Unifying the structure, the rules, the environment. This will make the entire industry better at whole because then the only question is about the fighters and not wether or not pride or bodog or cage rage or ufc has the best fighters. It becomes, who is the best fighter, period?

Notice how people are no longer worried about who is better between Liddell and Rua. You know why? Because we will have an answer soon enough and the stage will no longer be a question because Rua is becoming a UFC fighter. He will be given a few fights to adjust to the new rules, but if he trully is a great fighter he wont have a problem proving it.

Lastly, just because Asia is used to watching MMA in a ring doesn't mean they don't like the UFC. The reason that the UFC isn't big in Japan is because the UFC isn't pushed in Asia. Look at europe... why is it that UFC is blowing up over there? Its from all the promotion. The same will be true when a lot of Japanese MMA stars sign up for the UFC. Imagine the type of support the UFC will see from the Asian fans if Okami can pull off a win against Franklin. They would shit their pants. And frankly I would too.



1. You are seriously trying to tell me that a lack of competition in a capitalistic market equates to good business? This, my friend, is known as a monopoly. The WWE is the most lucrative pro wrestling organization because there is really no threat to them. Yeah, sure, there is TNA, but can anyone seriously say that TNA is going to beat WWE in a television ratings war anytime soon? WWE's most creative years were when they were head to head in the ratings war with WCW back in the late 90's. Once all their competition was bought out, the product became stagnant. Pro wrestling, by the way, is not the only example that I can come up with, this model happens all across the board in business, its common in economics.

2. Money doesn't make fighters fight harder? Tell that to the lower card guys who are getting 5k. Or tell that to the guys who get docked 10% of their purse because they are not pressing the action. Of course the main eventers don't need to worry about money, but a lot of the fighters do. Having a single showdown, every year, would create not only great competition, but hopefully the best performances these "professionals" can offer.

3. Marketing can only take you so far. Dana admitted in an interview that his CFO was worried about how much money they were putting into marketing on the ufc 70 show. How does Dana expect to reach Asian markets which already have several well established organizations when the UFC is blowing its wad on a Western market like the United Kingdom? The UFC doesn't even have full support in the United States. You are talking like the UFC is some unstoppable juggernaut, but the UFC is still wet behind the ears in its present form, and Zuffa can NOT get too cocky by eliminating one of the largest mma markets in the world. It's simply a stupid idea to get rid of PRIDE at this juncture.




Not trying to sound like a dick but you do realize every professional sport is run by a monopoly to ensure we get to see the best play the best. The NBA, NHL, MLB, EPL and NFL are far superior to any other association in thier respective sport and it does not hurt the game it enhances it.

If the UFC becomes the big league than Pride will be triple A, WEC AA, and KOTC A and then EliteXC, K1 etc are the "smaller" competitors.

Post #36   5/24/07 12:23:03PM   

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Posted by JBatch

Not trying to sound like a dick but you do realize every professional sport is run by a monopoly to ensure we get to see the best play the best. The NBA, NHL, MLB, EPL and NFL are far superior to any other association in thier respective sport and it does not hurt the game it enhances it.

If the UFC becomes the big league than Pride will be triple A, WEC AA, and KOTC A and then EliteXC, K1 etc are the "smaller" competitors.



I'm not sure if this is the best example... While pro-sports like the NBA, NFL, etc can be looked at as somewhat of a monopoly, there is still very energetic and healthy competition between the teams within these leagues to keep things fair for the players.

The problem with the UFC "owning" the sport is that there will be no other "team" to offer the healthy competition. There could be serious problems with fighter salaries, etc...

Sorry if this stuff has already been posted, I didn't read all of the posts before this... Just wanted to be a dick and try to point out a flaw in your arguement

And incase anyone was wondering, I do like the Pride format better... I don't get why people complain about restarts etc... Most of Pride's rules were in place to keep fighters active in the ring and encourage finishing a fight instead of leaving it in the judges hands... I'd much rather see a fight restarted in the center of the ring, as appose to two fighters clinched against a cage for the better part of a round, IMHO it seems like knit-picking to me...

Post #37   5/24/07 5:06:22PM   

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Posted by pv3Hpv3p


Posted by JBatch

Not trying to sound like a dick but you do realize every professional sport is run by a monopoly to ensure we get to see the best play the best. The NBA, NHL, MLB, EPL and NFL are far superior to any other association in thier respective sport and it does not hurt the game it enhances it.

If the UFC becomes the big league than Pride will be triple A, WEC AA, and KOTC A and then EliteXC, K1 etc are the "smaller" competitors.



I'm not sure if this is the best example... While pro-sports like the NBA, NFL, etc can be looked at as somewhat of a monopoly, there is still very energetic and healthy competition between the teams within these leagues to keep things fair for the players.

The problem with the UFC "owning" the sport is that there will be no other "team" to offer the healthy competition. There could be serious problems with fighter salaries, etc...

Sorry if this stuff has already been posted, I didn't read all of the posts before this... Just wanted to be a dick and try to point out a flaw in your arguement

And incase anyone was wondering, I do like the Pride format better... I don't get why people complain about restarts etc... Most of Pride's rules were in place to keep fighters active in the ring and encourage finishing a fight instead of leaving it in the judges hands... I'd much rather see a fight restarted in the center of the ring, as appose to two fighters clinched against a cage for the better part of a round, IMHO it seems like knit-picking to me...



I understand the hole your pointing out. Yet with guys like Leben telling the UFC to pay him more or lose his PPV selling power. It is not a true monopoly until nothing else exists to challenge its authority over wagers etc.

Post #38   5/24/07 5:51:44PM   

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Posted by nubby


Posted by wkm311

Good and Bad in my opinion. Its coo because we will get to see Chuck vs Shogun (given he beats Rampage). But its bad because they are taking more fighters from Pride and putting them in the UFC.


But why is that bad? Because you like the pride format better?



Because if they take Shogun out of Pride, Pride will become weaker. Soon Pride won't have alot of good fighters anymore because the UFC snagged them all.

Post #39   5/24/07 6:15:56PM   

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It looks the reason they are stealing the Pride fighters is because Zuffa didn't get the Pride fighters in the sale. It looks as though anyone under contract with DSE that had an exclusive contract can either sign with the UFC or be out of action while this things goes to court, which could be years.

Post #40   5/24/07 6:58:59PM   

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This "merger" isn't going well. If the UFC wants to kill Pride, just do it already. Let's not bother with pretense.

Post #41   5/24/07 7:00:43PM   

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Posted by Northrend


Posted by nubby


Posted by wkm311

Good and Bad in my opinion. Its coo because we will get to see Chuck vs Shogun (given he beats Rampage). But its bad because they are taking more fighters from Pride and putting them in the UFC.


But why is that bad? Because you like the pride format better?



Because if they take Shogun out of Pride, Pride will become weaker. Soon Pride won't have alot of good fighters anymore because the UFC snagged them all.



Yes but why is that inherently bad? If they are coming to the UFC and they are fighting the guys everyone has been waiting for, doesn't it seem like the positives far outweight the negatives? And the negatives seem more like opinion than anything else. If you like pride better than UFC than I understand your plight but if you like them both then this move should really do nothing but excite you. Imagine if Dan Henderson and Emelianenko make the move as well.

For people like chris leben, he doesn't really have that much selling power when compared to fighters like Chuck Liddell and Randy Couture. Sure people know his name, but no one is really going to miss him.

With Shogun coming to the UFC, I bet his pay will go up and the casual fan will learn who he is. Same with Wanderlei Silva if he makes the move as I believe he will.

Post #42   5/24/07 7:16:58PM   

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Posted by nubby


Posted by Northrend


Posted by nubby


Posted by wkm311

Good and Bad in my opinion. Its coo because we will get to see Chuck vs Shogun (given he beats Rampage). But its bad because they are taking more fighters from Pride and putting them in the UFC.


But why is that bad? Because you like the pride format better?



Because if they take Shogun out of Pride, Pride will become weaker. Soon Pride won't have alot of good fighters anymore because the UFC snagged them all.



Yes but why is that inherently bad? If they are coming to the UFC and they are fighting the guys everyone has been waiting for, doesn't it seem like the positives far outweight the negatives? And the negatives seem more like opinion than anything else. If you like pride better than UFC than I understand your plight but if you like them both then this move should really do nothing but excite you. Imagine if Dan Henderson and Emelianenko make the move as well.

For people like chris leben, he doesn't really have that much selling power when compared to fighters like Chuck Liddell and Randy Couture. Sure people know his name, but no one is really going to miss him.

With Shogun coming to the UFC, I bet his pay will go up and the casual fan will learn who he is. Same with Wanderlei Silva if he makes the move as I believe he will.




Well first I do like Pride more then UFC. You do make some good points, but I feel that Shogun/Wandy won't be able to fight as frequently as they did in Pride. Nor will they be able to compete in Grandprix anymore. And the people that are in Pride, when fighting in the GP, wont have nearly as much competition as they did with Shogun/Wandy.

Post #43   5/24/07 8:07:20PM   

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Posted by Northrend


Posted by nubby


Posted by Northrend


Posted by nubby


Posted by wkm311

Good and Bad in my opinion. Its coo because we will get to see Chuck vs Shogun (given he beats Rampage). But its bad because they are taking more fighters from Pride and putting them in the UFC.


But why is that bad? Because you like the pride format better?



Because if they take Shogun out of Pride, Pride will become weaker. Soon Pride won't have alot of good fighters anymore because the UFC snagged them all.



Yes but why is that inherently bad? If they are coming to the UFC and they are fighting the guys everyone has been waiting for, doesn't it seem like the positives far outweight the negatives? And the negatives seem more like opinion than anything else. If you like pride better than UFC than I understand your plight but if you like them both then this move should really do nothing but excite you. Imagine if Dan Henderson and Emelianenko make the move as well.

For people like chris leben, he doesn't really have that much selling power when compared to fighters like Chuck Liddell and Randy Couture. Sure people know his name, but no one is really going to miss him.

With Shogun coming to the UFC, I bet his pay will go up and the casual fan will learn who he is. Same with Wanderlei Silva if he makes the move as I believe he will.




Well first I do like Pride more then UFC. You do make some good points, but I feel that Shogun/Wandy won't be able to fight as frequently as they did in Pride. Nor will they be able to compete in Grandprix anymore. And the people that are in Pride, when fighting in the GP, wont have nearly as much competition as they did with Shogun/Wandy.


What's stopping the UFC from putting on it's own tournament similar to the Grand Prix?

Post #44   5/24/07 8:21:00PM   

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We very well might see the same format as IFL. 90% of these fighters belong to "Figh Clubs" and they all have very marketable fighters, so why not. This all really dependant on fighter's managers and agents. I would rather not see my fighters fight so often. This way they can "heal" between fights and still have ample time to train correctly. Thus providing a better fight. I would not be surprised if this turned into a huge tv contract w/one of the major primetime networks like abc, cbs, fox, espn, etc. These networks sign ridiculous contracts to air NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL, etc. Then UFC could PPV "World Cups", superfights, overseas, playoffs/tourneys/grand prix, etc.

Im sure Zuffa is not going to make any rash decisions on their investment. They have made such an impact in Europe that I wouldnt be surprised if they setup an office their and host half of their events their. Their is A LOT of talent in Europe. Hence european TUF, etc.

Asia will not be as difficult as everyone thinks. They will approach it the same way they did w/Europe. Im sure they are preceding cautiously w/Asia though of the Yakuza and 'other' entities. They are going to have to build a relationship w/K-1 whether they would like to or not.

BTW they need to pass the "open guard" rule.

Post #45   5/24/07 8:46:27PM   
 
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