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What is the future of MMA?

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BeeR

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Posted by KungFuMaster



People think GSP has great wrestling. No he does not. .




so you're saying one of the best wrestlers, if not the best (arguably) in MMA isnt a good wrestler?

Post #16   11/15/11 12:32:07PM   

gravy13

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Posted by BeeR

no he wouldnt.
he would have lost it once the drug tests came back.

thats why he decided to LET silva slap on a triangle at the last minute.




This pretty much sums it up.....

Post #17   11/15/11 1:37:15PM   

KungFuMaster

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Posted by BeeR


Posted by KungFuMaster



People think GSP has great wrestling. No he does not. .




so you're saying one of the best wrestlers, if not the best (arguably) in MMA isnt a good wrestler?



That is what I am saying. He is so good on his feet and it opens his opponents up for easy take-downs. GSP has the speed to cover a lot of ground which makes it almost impossible for his opponents to stop his downs. Why? Because his opponents are too busy worrying about his stand up.

Being able to take someone down in MMA does not require excellent wrestling techniques. It requires practice and good timing which GSP is good at because he devotes a lot of time into studying how to take people down. When a fighter is moving or advancing toward you, he will eventually have to lift his strong leg. Once that leg is lifted, you can shoot in and not expect to sustain much damage from a punch or strike. If you are not planted well on the ground, you cannot deliver a powerful punch or strike and GSP knows this because he studied karate and the aesthetics of balance.

Post #18   11/15/11 2:02:50PM   

BeeR

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ok so him out wrestling guys like fitch and kos, who are amazing wrestlers and being able to hold them down, a la pure wrestling, means he's not a good wrestler? he can take down any wrestler without striking, and he can hold down any wrestler, that means he's a phenomenal wrestler. he would beat these guys in pure wrestling. I dont know what GSP impersonator fights you've been watching....

Post #19   11/15/11 2:42:07PM   

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Posted by gravy13


Posted by BeeR

no he wouldnt.
he would have lost it once the drug tests came back.

thats why he decided to LET silva slap on a triangle at the last minute.




This pretty much sums it up.....



yeah, sarcasm, understand? guess not.
also, no, he most certainly would NOT have the belt, and wouldnt have had it any more then a week.

Post #20   11/15/11 2:48:24PM   

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Posted by BeeR


Posted by gravy13


Posted by BeeR

no he wouldnt.
he would have lost it once the drug tests came back.

thats why he decided to LET silva slap on a triangle at the last minute.




This pretty much sums it up.....



yeah, sarcasm, understand? guess not.
also, no, he most certainly would NOT have the belt, and wouldnt have had it any more then a week.



OK, but he still didn't get the belt because of his lack of sub-defense. That was the point in my first post.

Post #21   11/15/11 3:16:09PM   

KungFuMaster

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Posted by BeeR

ok so him out wrestling guys like fitch and kos, who are amazing wrestlers and being able to hold them down, a la pure wrestling, means he's not a good wrestler? he can take down any wrestler without striking, and he can hold down any wrestler, that means he's a phenomenal wrestler. he would beat these guys in pure wrestling. I dont know what GSP impersonator fights you've been watching....



There are much more finer points in wrestling than take-downs and sprawling. What you want to say is GSP is a great take-down artist as appose to a great wrestler.

Post #22   11/15/11 4:26:38PM   

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Posted by KungFuMaster


Posted by BeeR

ok so him out wrestling guys like fitch and kos, who are amazing wrestlers and being able to hold them down, a la pure wrestling, means he's not a good wrestler? he can take down any wrestler without striking, and he can hold down any wrestler, that means he's a phenomenal wrestler. he would beat these guys in pure wrestling. I dont know what GSP impersonator fights you've been watching....



There are much more finer points in wrestling than take-downs and sprawling. What you want to say is GSP is a great take-down artist as appose to a great wrestler.



Sorry man He holds guys like Fitch and Kos down as well as taking them down. He had a chance to try out for the Olympic team. I don't think he would have made it but lets get real if they are willing to take a look at him he must have some legit wrestling. His MMA wrestling is top notch He hits takedowns all the time with out using punches him and Cruz have the sickest Knee taps in the game. When GSP gets a guy down thats where they stay I'm not sure what to give that credit to other then Wrestling.

Post #23   11/15/11 5:07:52PM   

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There are much more finer points in wrestling than take-downs and sprawling. What you want to say is GSP is a great take-down artist as appose to a great wrestler.


Brother, I already said it, if GSP can lay on top of outstanding wrestlers like Fitch and KOS, and render their outstanding wrestling USELESS, then he, himself, is an outstanding wrestler, I didnt even say anything about TD's and sprawling, you keep going on about it, Im talking about his WRESTLING, Im talking about him holding down WRESTLERS on the ground, aka wrestling..... Im talking about GSP training with the Canadian Olympic wrestling team which has a very very stacked 74 and 84 kg team. He out wrestled Trigg, he out wrestled Fitch, he out wrestled KOS 1st fight.

his TD's, TDD and wrestling adapted for MMA is a totally different argument, although not the subject.. But to say he hasn't out wrestled the best wrestlers in the division, and that his wrestling is "not good" is completely ridiculous. How did he get labled a lay'n'prayer? by utilizing wrestling, and dominating wrestlers.

If he just had good takedowns, All the wrestlers he's faced would have easily been able to get the fight back to the feet right?

So, the way I see it, Better wrestling then top notch wrestlers + great TD's + great TDD = a great wrestler in my books

Last edited 11/15/11 5:21PM server time by beer
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Post #24   11/15/11 5:20:22PM   

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Wrestling is favored by the rules. +1 wrestling

The more wrestling is ingrained into the system of what works, the more wrestlers will appear.

The more Wrestlers increase among the % of prospects coming up, the more style-advantages top level Bjj fighters will have among the field of prospects.

I think, the more the field at play changes, the more "what's working" will change.

As far as striking, i think it's always been important at the heavy weight classes, and will always be the most important thing the higher you go up. However, the lower weightclasses behave opposite to that, and grappling will probably remain the keystone there.

What im noticing at LW, is that the anti-wrestler is sort of making a comeback. And the anti-wrestler traditionally gets beat by the striker, so that will be interesting with the Ben Henderson's, Frankie Edgar's, and Eddie Alvarez's of today. Though the latter two, are tremendous strikers in their own right.

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Post #25   11/15/11 5:54:48PM   

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GSP has some great wrestling attributes which translate well into MMA. To say he is a good wrestler based on his MMA performances is over-stating the facts. GSP could very well be a good wrestler but until he proves himself in a wrestling match, we cannot assume he is a good wrestler. MMA and wrestling are two different sports. In one, it is all about defending or advancing position without strikes or submissions. In the other, it is about defending or delivering punches, strikes, and submissions while trying to advance position. There is a reason he is able to hold down other wrestlers. Most fighters in the sport of MMA are trained to keep their opponents in the guard while being on the bottom. Moving from the guard position, especially giving up your back, will subject you to possible chokes such as the rear naked choke.

Post #26   11/15/11 6:50:11PM   

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There's essentially a semantics arguement going on here, and i think it all boils down to people attributing different meanings to the same word.

I would say Gsp is a good wrestler(because in my mind TD and TDD is the most attributable skills to traditional wrestling), but i would also say he's an average grappler(because his transitions and fundamental matwork are the least developed skills in his ground game). But someone else might think he's a good grappler and not a good wrestler based on the same, or different, criteria.

Wrestlers like fitch, or askren have very good grappling to compliment their wrestling.

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Post #27   11/15/11 7:22:45PM   

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Posted by DeadHead988

The real truth is that the dominant style is all determined by the rules. The reason why the styles that dominated old ufc are not the same styles that dominate today is that the rules changed. That's why wrestling isn't as dominant in Japan, the scoring system and rules are entirely different. The current American rules are de-emphasizing jiu-jitsu as much as possible, which is why it's not as dominant as it was for Royce Gracie in the original tournaments. Currently, the scoring favors wrestlers, forcing everyone to adapt and learn to neutralize wrestling just as they learned to neutralize jiu-jitsu years ago. Soon striking will dominate America like it does Japan, but eventually it will also fade and who knows what will take its place? Personally, I hope it changes soon because the wrestling-oriented style that is emphasized today is complete shit and is ruining the sport imo. Real talk.



I can relate to this.
I think a perfect example of the wrestling mind set is Ricco vs Nog.
Ricco was on top the whole time but it was Nog who went for the submission attempts. Thus attempting to finish the fight. Though fans complained because since Ricco was on top he surely won. here's an article from 2003 about it:
Ricco vs Nog breakdown Matt Hume

I think another great example was Bas Rutten vs Kevin Randleman. This fight was so contraversial but I don't see why. Randleman was on top the majority of the fight but even Big John admitted the reason he didn't stand the fight up was because Bas was working from the bottom! Not because Kevin was doing anything of significance from the top.

I'm not against seeing the other side of things,but I do agree that judging and mindset have a large part to play in what style or styles will become the future of MMA.

Post #28   11/15/11 7:47:44PM   

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Everytime I watch Dos Santos fight I get a giant grin on my face. I love it when fighters fight someone and they actually know how to strike and not just throw wide hillbilly swings. You never see someone run from a wrestler trying to get the takedown, it's the fighters who know how to strike that put the fear in their opponents eyes.

Post #29   11/15/11 10:59:54PM   

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Ive seen countless guys turn and run from a single leg attempt.
mostly strikers.

Post #30   11/16/11 6:27:37AM   
 
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