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Herb Dean's Actual Missed Call Being Overlooked

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FastKnockout

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One of the biggest stories in the wake of Strikeforce: Fedor vs. Henderson was referee Herb Dean's actions in the main event. While I've written that I feel the stoppage was correct and that Dan Henderson had Fedor Emelianenko knocked out, others (such as MMA Nation's Jonathan Snowden) have taken issue with the speed of the stoppage and/or the strikes to the back of Fedor's head in the final moments of the fight.

The minor controversy has completely overshadowed a moment from the undercard which seems to point out a larger failing on the part of Dean. It appears that during the bout between Gesias Cavalcante and Bobby Green saw Cavalcante lock in a rear naked choke in the final moments of the second round. Sherdog explains:

...referee Herb Dean elected not to call the tapout at the bell, allowed the fight to proceed and left Cavalcante to sweat out a decision. The 28-year-old Brazilian was awarded a split verdict, as all three judges scored it 29-28, two of them in his favor.

LINK

Post #1   8/1/11 1:10:15PM   

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I wish I could see the video of this. A tapout would've garnered some extra points for me.

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Post #2   8/1/11 1:15:42PM   

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Posted by FastKnockout

One of the biggest stories in the wake of Strikeforce: Fedor vs. Henderson was referee Herb Dean's actions in the main event. While I've written that I feel the stoppage was correct and that Dan Henderson had Fedor Emelianenko knocked out, others (such as MMA Nation's Jonathan Snowden) have taken issue with the speed of the stoppage and/or the strikes to the back of Fedor's head in the final moments of the fight.

The minor controversy has completely overshadowed a moment from the undercard which seems to point out a larger failing on the part of Dean. It appears that during the bout between Gesias Cavalcante and Bobby Green saw Cavalcante lock in a rear naked choke in the final moments of the second round. Sherdog explains:

...referee Herb Dean elected not to call the tapout at the bell, allowed the fight to proceed and left Cavalcante to sweat out a decision. The 28-year-old Brazilian was awarded a split verdict, as all three judges scored it 29-28, two of them in his favor.

LINK



Was the tapout before the bell at the exact same time? I could see there being a gray area for even Herb Dean if he doesnt get to break up a fight in time if the tap out starts before the bell and he goes to end it but the bell rings and the wrong guy gets the decision...No problem there and the fight is over turned...


it like the clock running out in football...Just because the play clock is down to zero the ref still has to get to his flag and blow the whistle...

I still think Dean is one of the best refs easily in the business..when u do over 1000 matches you are allowed a mistake or two...

Last edited 8/1/11 1:20PM server time by kingsmasher
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Post #3   8/1/11 1:16:46PM   

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Posted by kingsmasher


Posted by FastKnockout

One of the biggest stories in the wake of Strikeforce: Fedor vs. Henderson was referee Herb Dean's actions in the main event. While I've written that I feel the stoppage was correct and that Dan Henderson had Fedor Emelianenko knocked out, others (such as MMA Nation's Jonathan Snowden) have taken issue with the speed of the stoppage and/or the strikes to the back of Fedor's head in the final moments of the fight.

The minor controversy has completely overshadowed a moment from the undercard which seems to point out a larger failing on the part of Dean. It appears that during the bout between Gesias Cavalcante and Bobby Green saw Cavalcante lock in a rear naked choke in the final moments of the second round. Sherdog explains:

...referee Herb Dean elected not to call the tapout at the bell, allowed the fight to proceed and left Cavalcante to sweat out a decision. The 28-year-old Brazilian was awarded a split verdict, as all three judges scored it 29-28, two of them in his favor.

LINK



Was the tapout before the bell at the exact same time? I could see there being a gray area for even Herb Dean if he doesnt get to break up a fight in time if the tap out starts before the bell and he goes to end it but the bell rings and the wrong guy gets the decision...No problem there and the fight is over turned...


it like the clock running out in football...Just because the play clock is down to zero the ref still has to get to his flag and blow the whistle...

I still think Dean is one of the best refs easily in the business..when u do over 1000 matches you are allowed a mistake or two...



but in football if the clock its zero and the ball is in play u keep going till a deadball. in a fight if the bell rings and u keep fighting isnt that illegal???? I havent seen the fight but if he tapped before the bell then yes it should have been called but right when the clock hits zero the round is over so anything after that is void. if it happened at the same time then i have no earthly idea. and just like football if anything happens during a stop in play u dont win but get a penalty

Post #4   8/1/11 1:30:19PM   

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Posted by Manak


Posted by kingsmasher


Posted by FastKnockout

One of the biggest stories in the wake of Strikeforce: Fedor vs. Henderson was referee Herb Dean's actions in the main event. While I've written that I feel the stoppage was correct and that Dan Henderson had Fedor Emelianenko knocked out, others (such as MMA Nation's Jonathan Snowden) have taken issue with the speed of the stoppage and/or the strikes to the back of Fedor's head in the final moments of the fight.

The minor controversy has completely overshadowed a moment from the undercard which seems to point out a larger failing on the part of Dean. It appears that during the bout between Gesias Cavalcante and Bobby Green saw Cavalcante lock in a rear naked choke in the final moments of the second round. Sherdog explains:

...referee Herb Dean elected not to call the tapout at the bell, allowed the fight to proceed and left Cavalcante to sweat out a decision. The 28-year-old Brazilian was awarded a split verdict, as all three judges scored it 29-28, two of them in his favor.

LINK



Was the tapout before the bell at the exact same time? I could see there being a gray area for even Herb Dean if he doesnt get to break up a fight in time if the tap out starts before the bell and he goes to end it but the bell rings and the wrong guy gets the decision...No problem there and the fight is over turned...


it like the clock running out in football...Just because the play clock is down to zero the ref still has to get to his flag and blow the whistle...

I still think Dean is one of the best refs easily in the business..when u do over 1000 matches you are allowed a mistake or two...



but in football if the clock its zero and the ball is in play u keep going till a deadball. in a fight if the bell rings and u keep fighting isnt that illegal???? I havent seen the fight but if he tapped before the bell then yes it should have been called but right when the clock hits zero the round is over so anything after that is void. if it happened at the same time then i have no earthly idea. and just like football if anything happens during a stop in play u dont win but get a penalty



I cant think of it right this second...I am talking about before the ball is in play...If the play clock gets to zero and sometimes the ball is not hiked...the play is good if the ref doesnt blow the whistle...bottom line play stands...

IN MMA i just think whatever the ref rules stands and its looked at later...and then overturned if need be...Like the Oliveira fight...In the NFL or NBA or whatevr I doubt you will ever see a win over turned ever...

Post #5   8/1/11 1:49:09PM   

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I believe if the tapping for a sub occurred at the same moment as the sounding of the bell, it would still be a submission. I would imagine on the records it would look like Tapout due to RNC, 5:00 RD 2. Just like when a referee or doctor stops a fight between rounds.

Again, just my thought on how it would/should go down.

Post #6   8/1/11 2:00:34PM   

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Look at GSP-Hughes 1, GSP tapped as the horn sounded at the end of round 1 and Hughes got the sub win. And I'm not sure but I think herb was the third man in that one as well. Don't quote me on that last part tho

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Post #7   8/1/11 2:08:44PM   

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Posted by pmoney

I believe if the tapping for a sub occurred at the same moment as the sounding of the bell, it would still be a submission. I would imagine on the records it would look like Tapout due to RNC, 5:00 RD 2. Just like when a referee or doctor stops a fight between rounds.

Again, just my thought on how it would/should go down.



I thought this was the actual case.

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Post #8   8/1/11 2:22:44PM   

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Posted by kingsmasher


Posted by Manak


Posted by kingsmasher


Posted by FastKnockout

One of the biggest stories in the wake of Strikeforce: Fedor vs. Henderson was referee Herb Dean's actions in the main event. While I've written that I feel the stoppage was correct and that Dan Henderson had Fedor Emelianenko knocked out, others (such as MMA Nation's Jonathan Snowden) have taken issue with the speed of the stoppage and/or the strikes to the back of Fedor's head in the final moments of the fight.

The minor controversy has completely overshadowed a moment from the undercard which seems to point out a larger failing on the part of Dean. It appears that during the bout between Gesias Cavalcante and Bobby Green saw Cavalcante lock in a rear naked choke in the final moments of the second round. Sherdog explains:

...referee Herb Dean elected not to call the tapout at the bell, allowed the fight to proceed and left Cavalcante to sweat out a decision. The 28-year-old Brazilian was awarded a split verdict, as all three judges scored it 29-28, two of them in his favor.

LINK



Was the tapout before the bell at the exact same time? I could see there being a gray area for even Herb Dean if he doesnt get to break up a fight in time if the tap out starts before the bell and he goes to end it but the bell rings and the wrong guy gets the decision...No problem there and the fight is over turned...


it like the clock running out in football...Just because the play clock is down to zero the ref still has to get to his flag and blow the whistle...

I still think Dean is one of the best refs easily in the business..when u do over 1000 matches you are allowed a mistake or two...



but in football if the clock its zero and the ball is in play u keep going till a deadball. in a fight if the bell rings and u keep fighting isnt that illegal???? I havent seen the fight but if he tapped before the bell then yes it should have been called but right when the clock hits zero the round is over so anything after that is void. if it happened at the same time then i have no earthly idea. and just like football if anything happens during a stop in play u dont win but get a penalty



I cant think of it right this second...I am talking about before the ball is in play...If the play clock gets to zero and sometimes the ball is not hiked...the play is good if the ref doesnt blow the whistle...bottom line play stands...

IN MMA i just think whatever the ref rules stands and its looked at later...and then overturned if need be...Like the Oliveira fight...In the NFL or NBA or whatevr I doubt you will ever see a win over turned ever...



I see your point but it is hard to compare because football has plays, multiple refs, and play clock. you dont really have any of that in mma, because a "play" in mma could end a match while football has so many but i do agree with what the ref says stands n can be later looked at and overturned. I think its too harsh for refs to have no help and more should be done to get the best results. i guess all the gray area needs a committee so the ref isnt stuck by himself

Post #9   8/1/11 2:24:10PM   

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Posted by kingsmasher


Posted by Manak


Posted by kingsmasher


Posted by FastKnockout

One of the biggest stories in the wake of Strikeforce: Fedor vs. Henderson was referee Herb Dean's actions in the main event. While I've written that I feel the stoppage was correct and that Dan Henderson had Fedor Emelianenko knocked out, others (such as MMA Nation's Jonathan Snowden) have taken issue with the speed of the stoppage and/or the strikes to the back of Fedor's head in the final moments of the fight.

The minor controversy has completely overshadowed a moment from the undercard which seems to point out a larger failing on the part of Dean. It appears that during the bout between Gesias Cavalcante and Bobby Green saw Cavalcante lock in a rear naked choke in the final moments of the second round. Sherdog explains:

...referee Herb Dean elected not to call the tapout at the bell, allowed the fight to proceed and left Cavalcante to sweat out a decision. The 28-year-old Brazilian was awarded a split verdict, as all three judges scored it 29-28, two of them in his favor.

LINK



Was the tapout before the bell at the exact same time? I could see there being a gray area for even Herb Dean if he doesnt get to break up a fight in time if the tap out starts before the bell and he goes to end it but the bell rings and the wrong guy gets the decision...No problem there and the fight is over turned...


it like the clock running out in football...Just because the play clock is down to zero the ref still has to get to his flag and blow the whistle...

I still think Dean is one of the best refs easily in the business..when u do over 1000 matches you are allowed a mistake or two...



but in football if the clock its zero and the ball is in play u keep going till a deadball. in a fight if the bell rings and u keep fighting isnt that illegal???? I havent seen the fight but if he tapped before the bell then yes it should have been called but right when the clock hits zero the round is over so anything after that is void. if it happened at the same time then i have no earthly idea. and just like football if anything happens during a stop in play u dont win but get a penalty



I cant think of it right this second...I am talking about before the ball is in play...If the play clock gets to zero and sometimes the ball is not hiked...the play is good if the ref doesnt blow the whistle...bottom line play stands...

IN MMA i just think whatever the ref rules stands and its looked at later...and then overturned if need be...Like the Oliveira fight...In the NFL or NBA or whatevr I doubt you will ever see a win over turned ever...



Maybe not in the NFL or NBA, but UT was in the music city bowl against UNC when the time ran out and they announced UT won. Everyone was running off the field and they were bout to interview the coach when the refs came out and said UNC had won second left.

Post #10   8/1/11 2:24:13PM   

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Posted by SmileR


Posted by pmoney

I believe if the tapping for a sub occurred at the same moment as the sounding of the bell, it would still be a submission. I would imagine on the records it would look like Tapout due to RNC, 5:00 RD 2. Just like when a referee or doctor stops a fight between rounds.

Again, just my thought on how it would/should go down.



I thought this was the actual case.




agreed, is there an offical rule book open to the public?

Post #11   8/1/11 2:26:06PM   

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Posted by prophecy033

And I'm not sure but I think herb was the third man in that one as well.



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Post #12   8/1/11 2:26:44PM   

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Posted by Manak


Posted by SmileR


Posted by pmoney

I believe if the tapping for a sub occurred at the same moment as the sounding of the bell, it would still be a submission. I would imagine on the records it would look like Tapout due to RNC, 5:00 RD 2. Just like when a referee or doctor stops a fight between rounds.

Again, just my thought on how it would/should go down.



I thought this was the actual case.




agreed, is there an offical rule book open to the public?



Unified Rules of MMA

This is from the Association of Boxing Commissions website. Seems to be pretty legit. I gave it a scan and it appears to be the full unified rules.

Edit: After reading/scanning, an issue like this isn't directly addressed in the link I posted.... But I have to believe that if at tap occurs AT the bell, not after, it will still count as a submission.

Last edited 8/1/11 2:36PM server time by pmoney
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Post #13   8/1/11 2:30:38PM   

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Posted by prophecy033

Look at GSP-Hughes 1, GSP tapped as the horn sounded at the end of round 1 and Hughes got the sub win. And I'm not sure but I think herb was the third man in that one as well. Don't quote me on that last part tho



Hughes/GSP was with 1 second left. I'm curious to see how close this one was.

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Post #14   8/1/11 2:37:31PM   

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Posted by Bubbles


Posted by prophecy033

And I'm not sure but I think herb was the third man in that one as well.



quoted

nice dig

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Post #15   8/1/11 2:39:54PM   
 
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