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Jay Hieron defends victory over Brent Weedman in Bellator tourney semifinals

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You might have noticed a visible sigh from Jay Hieron (21-4 MMA, 2-0 BFC) when he was announced the winner in a fight with Brent Weedman (18-6-1 MMA, 4-1 BFC) this past Saturday at Bellator 40.

Some might say that sigh was an acknowledgment that he'd just dodged a bullet.

But that's not the case, Hieron on Monday told MMAjunkie.com Radio (www.mmajunkie.com/radio). It was a sigh of happy exhaustion.

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Post #1   4/12/11 6:12:43PM   

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Sorry to be the first post, I had to get this discussion rolling, and see where everyone stands on this one.

Of course Hieron isn't going to say, "I lost that fight. The judges got it wrong." But this article just struck a nerve when he said the judges knew what they were looking at.

No they didn't, that's why you won, Jay (I'll address it to him from here out). If they knew what they were looking at, you would've fought Dan FU#KING Hornbuckle, because he sh!tstomped Weedman, and Weedman got a BS win.

If you want a good example of effective counter striking, I'd say check out Kampmann-Sanchez. If your gameplan was being executed well, Weedman's face probably would have looked like Diego's, as opposed to virtually unscathed for a 15 minute fight.

Bellator, Bellator, Bellator. I've always been quick to defend you, thanks to your exciting fights and tournament format. But if the fight goes to a decision, call the cops, because someone's getting robbed.

Post #2   4/12/11 6:21:46PM   

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Weedman clearly won that fight....Jay got an early X-Mas gift.

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Post #3   4/12/11 6:27:43PM   

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Posted by Chael_Sonnen

Weedman clearly won that fight....Jay got an early X-Mas gift.



Lol, and how! I loved his post fight interview, "The thoroughbred is galloping!!!". I was impressed by his ability to be cocky immediately after losing a fight...

Post #4   4/12/11 6:49:56PM   

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Posted by pmoney


Posted by Chael_Sonnen

Weedman clearly won that fight....Jay got an early X-Mas gift.



Lol, and how! I loved his post fight interview, "The thoroughbred is galloping!!!". I was impressed by his ability to be cocky immediately after losing a fight...



Moot point....Hawn will tool Jay and Ben will go all funky on the Judo boy.

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Post #5   4/12/11 7:19:46PM   

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Posted by Chael_Sonnen


Posted by pmoney


Posted by Chael_Sonnen

Weedman clearly won that fight....Jay got an early X-Mas gift.



Lol, and how! I loved his post fight interview, "The thoroughbred is galloping!!!". I was impressed by his ability to be cocky immediately after losing a fight...



Moot point....Hawn will tool Jay and Ben will go all funky on the Judo boy.


Post #6   4/12/11 7:38:46PM   

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Fans,commentators,and promoters all aknowledge MMA has a huge referee and judging problem. The bigger problem is fighters only recognize this when they are cheated. The only 2 fightesr that come to mind that actually concede when they gets a BS decision or weird judge's scores are Rampage and Renzo Gracie. i'm sure their are more but it's an overwhelming minority.

If the problem is going to get fix than the fighters need to take action as well and not let their egos get in the way. Sure it sucks to admit you've lost a fight when three blind mice say you won it in their eyes but the overall progression of this sport should be central.
Easy for me to say though since i'm not making my living off of this and with that being said I think the problem will continue for some time to come.

Post #7   4/12/11 10:01:19PM   

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Posted by mrsmiley

Fans,commentators,and promoters all aknowledge MMA has a huge referee and judging problem. The bigger problem is fighters only recognize this when they are cheated. The only 2 fightesr that come to mind that actually concede when they gets a BS decision or weird judge's scores are Rampage and Renzo Gracie. i'm sure their are more but it's an overwhelming minority.

If the problem is going to get fix than the fighters need to take action as well and not let their egos get in the way. Sure it sucks to admit you've lost a fight when three blind mice say you won it in their eyes but the overall progression of this sport should be central.
Easy for me to say though since i'm not making my living off of this and with that being said I think the problem will continue for some time to come.


Great post MrSmiley, I would prop you up if I didn't have to spread the love! I think Ricardo Almeida presented a good point when he suggested that all judges should at least be practicioners, if not fighters.

Post #8   4/12/11 10:09:17PM   

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Posted by pmoney


Posted by mrsmiley

Fans,commentators,and promoters all aknowledge MMA has a huge referee and judging problem. The bigger problem is fighters only recognize this when they are cheated. The only 2 fightesr that come to mind that actually concede when they gets a BS decision or weird judge's scores are Rampage and Renzo Gracie. i'm sure their are more but it's an overwhelming minority.

If the problem is going to get fix than the fighters need to take action as well and not let their egos get in the way. Sure it sucks to admit you've lost a fight when three blind mice say you won it in their eyes but the overall progression of this sport should be central.
Easy for me to say though since i'm not making my living off of this and with that being said I think the problem will continue for some time to come.


Great post MrSmiley, I would prop you up if I didn't have to spread the love! I think Ricardo Almeida presented a good point when he suggested that all judges should at least be practicioners, if not fighters.



Thanks.

Almeida I think is right but if not fighters their should be some high criteria that shows you know what you're observing when watching a fight.

I can't remember who posted it now, but someone posted the link to the dynamite even where royce got his rematch with Saku.
Cecil Peoples wasn't event watching the fight with Sik and Manhoef!

Last edited 4/13/11 4:50AM server time by mrsmiley
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Post #9   4/13/11 4:50:25AM   

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Posted by pmoney


Posted by mrsmiley

Fans,commentators,and promoters all aknowledge MMA has a huge referee and judging problem. The bigger problem is fighters only recognize this when they are cheated. The only 2 fightesr that come to mind that actually concede when they gets a BS decision or weird judge's scores are Rampage and Renzo Gracie. i'm sure their are more but it's an overwhelming minority.

If the problem is going to get fix than the fighters need to take action as well and not let their egos get in the way. Sure it sucks to admit you've lost a fight when three blind mice say you won it in their eyes but the overall progression of this sport should be central.
Easy for me to say though since i'm not making my living off of this and with that being said I think the problem will continue for some time to come.


Great post MrSmiley, I would prop you up if I didn't have to spread the love! I think Ricardo Almeida presented a good point when he suggested that all judges should at least be practicioners, if not fighters.



I agree. Props. and I would add Forrest to the list who have publicly thought hey lost a decision they got.

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Post #10   4/13/11 8:13:46AM   

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As a fan of the sport it is extremely frustrating to watch the level of incompetence demonstrated in decisions made by many of the judges of MMA fights.

A prime example of this was the recent fight between Mousasi and Jardine which was declared a draw.

Firstly a criticism not of the judger per se; more a sore point with one of the 'rules of the game'. In my opinion if there are three judges voting on the outcome and two of them rate the fight as a draw and the third judge scores one contestant better than the other then the winner should be declared as the fighter adjudged the winner by the third judge. What is the problem with this logic? A cumulative total of all judging points scored by each fighter clearly shows who the victor is.

Now to the problems with the scoring of judges. I don't know much about judging in boxing but it is my impression that blows that do not land (and minor damage ones) are not counted in the scoring of the fight. This is clearly as it should be. Only damage is counted. So in MMA judging why on earth is the fact that a fighter floors another taken as being a scoring move?
What needs to be taken into account is damage done like in boxing. So if the fighter on the ground delivers damage to the one on top (eg by vicious elbow defence) that should be counted. And if the fighter who achieved the takedown does little or no damage while on top (eg Jardine in the Mousasi fight) then he should get no credit at all for that episode.

This means that with aggressive enough defence the taken-down fighter may be able to score more than the opponent on top, which makes sense: damage counts not simply the fact of flooring an opponent.

Of course there is the argument that in changing the way in which judges score a fight there can be difficulty in deciding on the value of a punch versus a kick versus an elbow blow versus a takedown versus a skilled move on the mat etc. My argument here is this: There is no need to quantify the amount of damage for each type of strike or jujitsu move.

Even the ignorant public viewer can generally see which fighter is delivering the best performance without needing to quantify each aspect of the performance. In the Jardine fight mentioned above it was clear that he took a huge amount of punishment and the statistics of number of blows landed etc confirmed this fact. The current blunt-edge way of judges using scores of say 10 to 9 per round is rubbish. It does not come anywhere near capturing the reality of what is happening in the octagonal ring. When the fans can see the outcome better than the judges this situation screams out for change in the way judging is currently done.

Now to a question. Do the judges sitting ringside see on TV monitors what the television audience is seeing? If not then it is likely that the judges have a lesser view of what is taking place than the TV audience (eg when the action is taking place on the other side of the ring from where they are sitting).
To do a really competent job he judges need to get all the information available to them to make their decisions, including replays from the video footage when they request it. These requests would most likely be of best effect in a fight that goes the full distance and it is difficult to separate the level of performance of both fighters. In such cases if the judges took say an extra 10 minutes at the end of the fight to review the footage at critical points in the battle the delay in coming to a decision would be well worth the wait.

If such final-decision delays are not tenable there could be additional judges, not at ringside but at an offsite location. Their role would NOT be to score the whole fight.

These offsite judges would have the sole task, during the fight, of reviewing replay of the video 'footage' at critical points that they request. Thus they would see more even than the TV audience, because they would be given access to views from multiple cameras. At the end of the fight their input would be amalgamated with the scores of the ringside judges to get to a fair outcome for the fight. As an example they could review an episode in the fight when a takedown occurred and evaluate what the fighter on top scored in damage actually caused and what the fighter below scored for the damage he inflicted. With the speed of fights and the variety of action it is difficult for ringside judges alone to be able to come up with accurate scores.
With additional help from offsite judges it would make every judge's job easier.

Obviously if the 10 to 9 blunt-edged scoring mechanism was done away with the scores of the ringside judges would vary widely. This does not mean that they are not competent, it is just a reflection of how difficult it is to quantify the effects of different types of strikes/wrestling moves. So I suggest that the judges be encouraged to be more flexible in their scoring of each round. If one fighter clearly does a lot more damage than the other they could score that round 10 to 6, for example.
The right decision would emerge at the end of the fight when the points of all the judges, ringside and offsite are combined to get a cumulative total for each fighter.

I know that the majority of the human population is uncomfortable with change and a thousand reasons will be given by present-process bigots why no new system is better than the existing one. They will also whine about the difficulty of how to amalgamate the scores of ringside and offsite judges (if they are even brave enough to be comfortable with a blended scoring scenario). My point is this: The present system stinks in its obvious, frustrating shortcomings and major changes need to be contemplated to take it from being a bad joke to becoming a system that works!

Post #11   4/17/11 4:28:45AM