Fighter faces murder charges |
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machodog76
Belt Contender
Career record: 925-583
Season: 18-6 (#302)
Location: portland
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A co-founder of a Watertown mixed martial arts team faces murder charges after the Thursday death of another man in what police described as an alcohol-fueled assault in a bar parking lot two weeks ago.
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Really sad, I'm not sure if this is a case of murder though it seems more like unintentional homicide. Could someone with a better knowledge of the law comment?
Last edited 4/1/11 4:20PM by emfleek
Edit note/reason: Re-formatted to meet site requirements for posting news topics.
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Post #1 4/1/11 3:58:59PM
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DeadHead988
MMA Sensei
Career record: 231-189
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: Waukesha, WI
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GODAMNIT! I wrote the most epic post ever, detailing various moral and legal ambiguities and analyzing this question to the core. I put like 15 min of thought into it, and was pretty ****** proud of it. Then I accidentally clicked a smiley face and when I hit the backspace button to get rid of it it took me back to the previous page. I'm crying as I type this... 
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Post #2 4/1/11 6:39:42PM
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kingsmasher
BANNED
Career record: 244-148
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: Orlando
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I am very surprised we have not seen a case where a MMA guy has accidentally killed someone and be charged with assault with a deadly weapon since they are trained for precisely something like that...
kinda like that war Machine guy where he beat up various people at a party..Should sentence him to prison and let the inmates get him...You cant fight off five guys at once...
Well I would like to see Brock lesnar though take on clay Guida and Sean Sherk at the same time....I could see them running through his legs...
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Post #3 4/1/11 6:51:57PM
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jtgribble
Learning to Sprawl
Career record: 425-284
Season: 6-5 (#1967)
Location: Ohio
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I'm no expert on the law in any way, but I won't let that stop me from giving my opinion. If it was indeed self defense, then being trained to defend yourself with your hands and feet is no different than defending yourself with a gun, bat, stick, etc.. You do what you have to do to survive and it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
However, if the trained individual is the aggressor, then you have to believe that because of their training that they knew exactly what they were capale of doing. It would also be harder (not impossible) to argue that you were caught in the heat of the moment, when you are trained on how to handle these hand to hand situations. Just my .02.
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Post #4 4/1/11 6:55:52PM
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jgtribbett
MMA Sensei
Career record: 454-288
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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If fighters cannot defend themselves under the same conditions as an average person, then lawyers shouldn't be aloud to represent themselves in court.
sry that was the best I could come up with.
If a man walks into an off duty cop's house or even an ex marine's house and pulls a gun on him/her, shouldn't the home owner be aloud to use his weapon to defend himself? YES
couple more ridiculous analygies to put this question into perspective.
Marathon runners getting more jail time from evading arrest because they are pro runners.
NASCAR drivers getting higher ticket fines because they are pro drivers.
lawyers who are being prosecuted are stricken from providing their own counsel.
fighters cannot defend themselves because they are really good at it.
All ridiculous. On the other hand there are limits to self defense, something like "not taking it too far". For instance, if someone attacks me and I break one of his limbs, choke him out or KO him, I cannot continue to attack.
So my answer is obvious.. NO
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Post #5 4/1/11 8:00:31PM
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MODulation
Career record: 953-574
Season: 19-5 (#434)
Location: Portlandia
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There isn't enough of a fact scenario to be able to really comment effectively as to whether it might be murder or not.
Alternate charges like that, my guess is it ends with him pleading to the manslaughter, but you never know.
As far as the idea of self-defense. . . the rule is you can use "reasonable force" to defend yourself. What is "reasonable" depends on the situation. Generally, it means that you can't use too much force to defend yourself. For example, it generally isn't reasonable to shoot someone with a gun when they are attacking you with their fists. But facts and circumstances are important. It might be that a 100lb. girl being attacked by a 275lb. man can use a gun if she reasonably feared for her life. Conversely, a 275lb. man most likely couldn't use a gun if he was attacked by a 100lb. girl because he wouldn't have a reasonable fear that she would kill him.
In the context of mma, I don't know that a mma fighter would necessarily be deemed to be more of a dangerous weapon than the average person all the time, but it is definitely going to come into play as to using techniques that the fighter knows are potentially lethal.
As to this particular case, IF the mma fighter kept striking the dead man after he was unconcious or in any other way no longer a threat, then I would say that the force he was using was not reasonable, even in self-defense.
The part of the article where they describe the attack kind of sounds like he beat him up, the guy fell to the ground, and the fighter mounted him and beat him to death. Without trying to divine facts, my guess is that if he goes to trial a jury is not going to sympathize with an mma fighter who beat someone to death, and that most likely he pleads to the manslaughter charge.
_______________________________________
Flame Not, Lest Ye Be Flamed Yourself.
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Post #6 4/1/11 8:23:42PM
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Buy the ticket, take the ride
Career record: 906-512
Season: 17-7 (#920)
Location: My big ass bed
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Absolutely the MMA fighter should be held more accountable! I don't understand how anyone could argue any different!
If it turns out that the guy used excessive amounts of force then his fighting background should instantly come into play! How could it not?
_______________________________________
"RIP Evan Tanner, a real life trail blazer."
I was born to lead, not to read!!!!
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Post #7 4/1/11 10:33:54PM
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warglory
Heavyweight Champ
Career record: 465-318
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: Portland, ME
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Posted by SmileR
Absolutely the MMA fighter should be held more accountable! I don't understand how anyone could argue any different!
If it turns out that the guy used excessive amounts of force then his fighting background should instantly come into play! How could it not?
I agree. As the Spiderman adage states, "with great power comes great responsibility." Fighters know how to hit harder, know the best places to strike to incapacitate an opponent, and know various holds to bring someone into a state of unconsciousness almost as second nature. Of course fights between normal people can result in equally catastrophic injuries, but a fighter, who has the ability to maim by way of his day job, is in a unique position of taking the upper hand when it comes to fights by either avoiding it all together, or incapacitating an aggressor as quickly as possible and alerting the proper authorities. By taking advantage of your skillset to inflict maximum damage on an average person, you no longer, as a professional fighter, can be considered a simple drunk brawler, and as such the law should seek the maximum penalty against your egregious actions.
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Post #8 4/1/11 10:46:40PM
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KO_Strike
Learning to Sprawl
Career record: 375-322
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location:
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if it was truly self defense why didn't he just go for a choke? it would've been quick and painless. The info in the article leads us to believe it was assault, "Stulken continued to strike Jaton after he'd fallen on the pavement, police say." He deserves a fair trial like anyone else would and if he's found guilty of those charges he should be punished like anyone else would.
hopefully the mayor of that city will come to his senses and realise this was an isolated incident and has nothing to do with the sport as a whole.
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Post #9 4/1/11 10:58:13PM
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otacon279
MMA Regular
Career record: 548-320
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: Canada
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yeah... there is no excuse for what he did.
after he knocked the guy out already .. he was still hitting him.
mma fighters remember your hand's are faster and harder than those who don't train...
have fun in jail....
this is not the 1st time **** like that has happened in that town
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Post #10 4/1/11 11:18:32PM
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TheBlackChip
MMA Regular
Career record: 503-242
Season: 21-3 (#118)
Location: Minneapolis
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While I agree that "fighters" in general should be held to a higher level of accountability I think it's difficult to determine what a "fighter" is.
If by "fighters" you mean anyone competing in combat sports then that means applying the law to all fighters, whether it be a top level high school wrestler, a "toughman" boxer, or a highly trained MMA athlete like like Jon Jones.
If you agree that mixed martial artists are "fighters", and that because the combat skills they learn and utilize in competition give them an unfair advantage over "ordinary citizens" they should be held to a higher standard of law, then you must also recognize the fact that the skills learned and utilized in high school and collegiate wrestling are effective, if not the most effective, tools in mixed martial arts, giving a person who is trained in these skills and has participated in wrestling competitions, whether in high school or the olympics, that same unfair advantage as the "mixed martial artist" and should also be held to the same higher standard of law.
Same with jui jitsu, boxing, karate and all other variations of martial art. To what level do you have to be trained to be considered a "fighter"? Junior? Amateur? Professional? What if a 180 lb state champion high school wrestler pummels some poor 130 lb band geek at a party? I'd say he had an unfair advantage, wouldn't you? What if you just do like Evan Tanner did and watch a bunch of tutorials, become a highly skilled MMA practitioner, but you don't ever fight in sanctioned competition? What if your a plumber but you fight at the local gym on the weekends, and have no credentials to speak of? I think there's a big grey area here, especially since the big name fighters rarely get into street fights, most of the "fighters" getting into bar room brawls are usually the drunk wrestlers or yellow belt tough guys from no name gyms all across the U.S., making it more difficult to identify them as "fighters".
Bottom line: I think it would be easy to refute the fact that you are a "fighter", much the same way a person who golfs on the weekends isn't necessarily a "golfer".
Thoughts?
Last edited 4/2/11 12:03AM by TheBlackChip
Edit note/reason: n/a
6 total post edits
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Post #11 4/1/11 11:42:41PM
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Fearless Leader
Career record: 945-463
Season: 18-6 (#505)
Location: Texas
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This notion was retarded in Con Air (suprised nobody has mentioned that movie yet), and its not any smarter here.
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Post #12 4/2/11 2:46:09AM
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One_Hit_Quit
Learning to Sprawl
Career record: 755-433
Season: 20-4 (#98)
Location: IOWA
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I want to preface this with "I am not a lawer" but......Self defense usually only works if a person had no other way out, meaning they were cornered or a deadly weapon was about to be used. In this case, it was in a parking lot and the weapons involved are fists. I doubt the 'self defese' angle is going to hold up.
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Post #13 4/2/11 3:26:39AM
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Aether
Heavyweight Champ
Career record: 929-503
Season: 18-6 (#402)
Location: Edmonton
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Posted by DeadHead988
GODAMNIT! I wrote the most epic post ever, detailing various moral and legal ambiguities and analyzing this question to the core. I put like 15 min of thought into it, and was pretty ****** proud of it. Then I accidentally clicked a smiley face and when I hit the backspace button to get rid of it it took me back to the previous page. I'm crying as I type this...
Well, for future reference, when that happens you can just hit page forward and whatever you wrote should still be there, as long as you don't perform any other actions before you click page forward.
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Post #14 4/2/11 7:22:51AM
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Buy the ticket, take the ride
Career record: 906-512
Season: 17-7 (#920)
Location: My big ass bed
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Posted by TheBlackChip
Bottom line: I think it would be easy to refute the fact that you are a "fighter", much the same way a person who golfs on the weekends isn't necessarily a "golfer".
Thoughts?
My opinion is if you're good enough to take a fight amateur or professional you should be held to a higher standard. If you train for pleasure and you're not fighting amateur fights then its debatable, if you're good enough to compete you should be held to a higher standard.
_______________________________________
"RIP Evan Tanner, a real life trail blazer."
I was born to lead, not to read!!!!
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Post #15 4/2/11 9:38:19AM
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