Matt Hughes and Dana White Believe BJ Penn Beat Jon Fitch |
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FastKnockout
Heavyweight Champ
Career record: 547-328
Season: 38-21 (#697)
Location: Mississippi
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"B.J. (Penn)’s fight is drawing a lot of controversy on my Forums. I only watched the fight once, during the PPV on Saturday night, so I haven’t rewatched any clips at all. This is my opinion based on what I remember."
"BJ started to execute the gameplan well as he went out and took (Jon) Fitch down. He did a little work on top and then got Fitch’s back. Fitch then reversed and BJ stood up. I think everybody scored the first round 10-9 for Penn."
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Post #1 3/1/11 11:36:24PM
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FastKnockout
Heavyweight Champ
Career record: 547-328
Season: 38-21 (#697)
Location: Mississippi
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Yeah, I don't agree with Hughes or White. Especially when Hughes said Fitch just layed on him. I watched the fight, as well, and Fitch did try to gain dominate positions. A lot of people are saying Fitch was stalling in Penn's guard, and I don't agree, because Fitch did in fact try to pass Penn's guard a few times, and you can't hold it against the guy if he can't manage to pass Penn's guard, who is known for his guard. Even if he was stalling, why would he want to chance his already dominate position by passing and taking the chance of Penn sweeping him, when Penn is also known for that? Hughes also said that Fitch didn't try to finish in the third, and I don't agree with that as well. Fitch worked the whole time, and he was landing some shots that would really hurt any other opponent, especially the elbows. Just because he didn't pass to a more dominate position or try a submission doesn't mean the guy wasn't trying to finish. He was commiting everything to the ground and pound, and apparently he did something right because he dominated the round and outstruck Penn like 140 something to 0. That was the most damage done in the fight.
Last edited 3/1/11 11:45PM by FastKnockout
Edit note/reason: n/a
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Post #2 3/1/11 11:44:08PM
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TimW001
MMA Sensei
Career record: 502-330
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: Canada BC
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And I thought it was a fair decision.
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Post #3 3/2/11 12:28:36AM
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Twenty20Dollars
Heavyweight Champ
Career record: 847-533
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location:
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I think I'm over this fight and don't care for a rematch.
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Post #4 3/2/11 12:39:09AM
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bjj1605
MMA Sensei
Career record: 910-551
Season: 41-18 (#662)
Location: Chicago
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I couldn't agree more with both of them. There is no way that was a 10-8 round. Had he been postured up and really pounding on BJ I would have scored it 10-8. His posture was down and his shots were just arm punches. And at no point did he ever attempt to pass. If you spend the whole round in guard (a neutral position) you don't get 10-8 rounds unless you really pound the hell out of the guy. No dominant positions. No effective ground and pound (effective means with an end toward finishing the fight.) No 10-8 round.
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Post #5 3/2/11 12:49:17AM
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TimW001
MMA Sensei
Career record: 502-330
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: Canada BC
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Posted by bjj1605
I couldn't agree more with both of them. There is no way that was a 10-8 round. Had he been postured up and really pounding on BJ I would have scored it 10-8. His posture was down and his shots were just arm punches. And at no point did he ever attempt to pass. If you spend the whole round in guard (a neutral position) you don't get 10-8 rounds unless you really pound the hell out of the guy. No dominant positions. No effective ground and pound (effective means with an end toward finishing the fight.) No 10-8 round.
But what did BJ do? Held a man in guard the whole round? Fitch didn't try to pass, and BJ didn't know how to counter.
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Post #6 3/2/11 1:11:37AM
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GSPCanada
Standup Guy
Career record: 637-415
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location:
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Posted by TimW001
Posted by bjj1605
I couldn't agree more with both of them. There is no way that was a 10-8 round. Had he been postured up and really pounding on BJ I would have scored it 10-8. His posture was down and his shots were just arm punches. And at no point did he ever attempt to pass. If you spend the whole round in guard (a neutral position) you don't get 10-8 rounds unless you really pound the hell out of the guy. No dominant positions. No effective ground and pound (effective means with an end toward finishing the fight.) No 10-8 round.
But what did BJ do? Held a man in guard the whole round? Fitch didn't try to pass, and BJ didn't know how to counter.
exactly. you can't just sit there, bj penn is a phenomenal fighter, not good, not great, PHENOMENAL. but he looked almost amateur in that 3rd round. Fitch couldn't pass because bj never opened his guard he just laid there. You could have thrown in a wrestling dummy for bj and it would have basically been the same, u don't just get 9 pts for showing up. I'm really disappointed that dana white of all people said fitch didn't get a 10-8. what do u have to do then? look at the 2nd round and how close that was if ur gonna give bj 10-9 for that u have to give fitch 10-8
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Post #7 3/2/11 2:28:30AM
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SamPan
Standup Guy
Career record: 771-459
Season: 38-19 (#838)
Location:
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I'm surprised that most people seem to have had Penn winning the second round. I had it 29-28 Fitch.
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Post #8 3/2/11 3:38:11AM
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The Original Playground Bully
Career record: 1002-557
Season: 46-13 (#11)
Location: Minnesota
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Posted by bjj1605
I couldn't agree more with both of them. There is no way that was a 10-8 round. Had he been postured up and really pounding on BJ I would have scored it 10-8. His posture was down and his shots were just arm punches. And at no point did he ever attempt to pass. If you spend the whole round in guard (a neutral position) you don't get 10-8 rounds unless you really pound the hell out of the guy. No dominant positions. No effective ground and pound (effective means with an end toward finishing the fight.) No 10-8 round.
To pull a quote from the unified rules of MMA:
3. A round is to be scored as a 10-8 Round when a contestant overwhelmingly dominates by striking or grappling in a round.
Nowhere in the rules does it state that a fighter must be nearly finished for a round to be scored 10-8. The fact of the matter is BJ offered absolutely ZERO offence in round 3 as opposed to Fitch who overwhelmingly dominated both striking and grappling. I'm not sure how much clearer you can make a 10-8 round.
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And as El Guapo always says- "God speed, and party on. Whoap!"
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Post #9 3/2/11 5:12:38AM
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quezocrema0032
In Full Mount
Career record: 992-541
Season: 38-21 (#621)
Location: Yonkers NY
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Im honestly disappointed with so many people who hate fitches style I don't see why so many people believe he won the second round. I had the bout scored 28 28 for the record, but penn scored in every critera in the second and fitch stalled in guard in the second and not even off a take down but off of bj losing a dominant position. If you give fitch the second round your pretty much saying a guy deserves more points for stalling in guard then a guy causing cuts, stuffing takedowns,.and taking fight ending positions.
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Post #10 3/2/11 7:39:32AM
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tallica62
Belt Contender
Career record: 895-568
Season: 37-22 (#1108)
Location: San Diego
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Posted by Twenty20Dollars
I think I'm over this fight and don't care for a rematch.
same here
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Post #11 3/2/11 8:20:57AM
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hate4thestate
In Full Mount
Career record: 435-312
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: Kokomo, IN
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Posted by FastKnockout
Yeah, I don't agree with Hughes or White. Especially when Hughes said Fitch just layed on him. I watched the fight, as well, and Fitch did try to gain dominate positions. A lot of people are saying Fitch was stalling in Penn's guard, and I don't agree, because Fitch did in fact try to pass Penn's guard a few times, and you can't hold it against the guy if he can't manage to pass Penn's guard, who is known for his guard. Even if he was stalling, why would he want to chance his already dominate position by passing and taking the chance of Penn sweeping him, when Penn is also known for that? Hughes also said that Fitch didn't try to finish in the third, and I don't agree with that as well. Fitch worked the whole time, and he was landing some shots that would really hurt any other opponent, especially the elbows. Just because he didn't pass to a more dominate position or try a submission doesn't mean the guy wasn't trying to finish. He was commiting everything to the ground and pound, and apparently he did something right because he dominated the round and outstruck Penn like 140 something to 0. That was the most damage done in the fight.
all that needs to be said...
Link
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Post #12 3/2/11 9:08:45AM
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BigIP
Standup Guy
Career record: 43-35
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: DC
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I want BJ to move back down to lightweight. If he used takedowns from the beginning against Frankie he would have won both fights. And another reason BJ has no submission wins off his back is because most guys can't take him down and keep in down (with the exception of GSP and Fitch which are both big WW). It would be interesting to see if Gray Maynard could hold BJ down.
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Post #13 3/2/11 10:21:59AM
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MODular Approach
Career record: 1032-582
Season: 39-20 (#371)
Location:
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Posted by hate4thestate
all that needs to be said...
Link
I'll say that the article does start by making a good point, but should have probably quit while they were ahead. BJ completely ignores most submissions, while he loves the RNC. I think it boils down to him feeling as though he's dominated and strangled an opponent rather than just taking his limb. Off hand, I can only recall BJ going for an armbar only twice. Both on Pulver...in the first fight, Jens was saved by the bell, while in the second fight, BJ could have finished, but opted to continue the beating. Whatever the reason, unless he's taking your back, he is mostly a positional grappler. To put BJ on his back though, you need to be a top shelf grappler yourself...and to prevent him from climbing around your torso afterwards also requires the same. BJ only fights top level competition, so yes, some of his opponents will be able to nullify his bottom game.
And now the things I have an issue with:
Lightweights Frankie Edgar and Jens Pulver both beat BJ on the strength of their wrestling and conditioning.
Jens Pulver and Frankie Edgar (the first fight) both received gifts from the judges. It's no secret that judges have not been kind to the prodigy over the years.
Fighters seem to want to avoid the ground at all costs, when they should be doing just the opposite.
It's a pick your poison type situation really...and it's not the other fighter's choice most of the time.
BJ PENN HAS NEVER BEATEN A WELTERWEIGHT IN THE UFC WHO WASN'T NAMED MATT HUGHES
He's obviously trying to insinuate that we don't know whether BJ can handle himself at WW. Does the statement above really mean anything? Not really. First of all, Matt Hughes is the second best WW of all time and BJ has defeated him...twice...both in devastating fashion. BJ also took the best WW of all time and possible best P4P fighter on the planet to the closest decision in his career...actually the only close decision of his career. He has also fought in nearly every weight class outside of the Octagon, including a fight against Machida, which was also razor thin.
So, yes, BJ doesn't submit people off his back...that is all.
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Post #14 3/2/11 10:30:17AM
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xburbx
MMA Regular
Career record: 598-360
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: New Jersey
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please dont rematch. i dont want to spend $50.00 for that as a headliner again.....
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Post #15 3/2/11 11:46:56AM
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