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Fight Metric report for BJ Penn vs Jon Fitch draw

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Posted by warglory

Jon Fitch doesn't stall. Just because there isn't slick BJJ maneuvers doesn't mean there's no grappling happening. Fitch was nullifying Penn's jits with his top game, and then did whatever he wanted with the striking, and that's what made it incredible to watch. You see boring, and I see an experienced wrestler destroying one of the best jiu jitsu players in the game.







Fighters should be awarded for successful defense. And with this in mind i can clearly see how a 10-8 is appropriate in the third round.

BUT, by this rationale, i can not see how you can give fitch the second round. Penn was nullifying Fitch's wrestling with his spawl. The amount of successful defense by Penn and unsuccessful offense by Fitch, won Penn a very close second round.

And if the defense exhibited by a fighter shouldn't be scored as controlling a round, then i see no reason for a 10-8 fitch round, when the most impressive thing about that round was his ability to shut down penn's offense.

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Post #46   2/27/11 10:09:17PM   

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Posted by Bubbles


Posted by icantthinkofanything

Rematch needed


bj won rd 1 and 2, he made Fitch bleed, punched and elbowed more... and took Fitch down. dominant position 2 near finishing chokes...






really? superficial damage is part of your scoring criteria?



Its the reason we know Fitch's ground and pound in the third was effective.

To ignore superficial damage altogether is worse than factoring it in as a means of understanding the damage of strikes you didnt feel with your own head.

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BJ Penn beat Frankie Edgar more times than Benson Henderson beat Frankie Edgar.

Post #47   2/27/11 10:14:05PM   

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im sorry but there was no way Penn won that fight. taking Fitch's back for 15 seconds half assed a RNC attempt, one significant strike (elbow to Jon's nose) in round 2 is not worth more than 4 minutes of octagon control, TD, and gnp. Fitch won 29-28 (or 29-27 if round 3 was a 10-8). take away your Fitch hating bias and watch the fight.

how does Fitch stall? all i see is his ground striking total hit triple digits almost every fight. are you saying he has to pass guard in order to not stall? then guys like Tito and Sonnen are stallers because they would rather sit in guard and pound away than advance position. DHK lnp his way to victory over Diaz, Hughes lnp his way to a win over Serra, etc. Fitch is constantly hitting his opponent.

i love how he ALWAYS gets **** on for his "boring" fights yet his opponent doesnt get criticized. everyone and their grandmother knows exactly Fitch's gameplan and yet NO ONE (besides GSP) can counter it. if Penn's BJJ was so great, he should have been able to attack or neutralize Fitch. he never threw up a sub attempt or even tried to pull off the rubber guard. he came in with a great gameplan and had his chances to finish the fight, but Fitch reversed position BOTH TIMES.

hate on Fitch all you want. winning is the most important thing in sports. i dont think the Spurs or Bears give a **** about putting on exciting games...you play to win the game. the UFC needs to get their **** together and use a structured ranking system to determine title shots. Fitch has something like the 2nd best UFC record of all time (behind Anderson) and only got 1 title shot?

finishing fights is overrated. sure its more exciting but anyone can get caught. whats your excuse for getting beat on for 15-25 minutes without mounting any sort of offense yourself???

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Post #48   2/27/11 10:15:05PM   

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Posted by Bubbles

im sorry but there was no way Penn won that fight. taking Fitch's back for 15 seconds half assed a RNC attempt, one significant strike (elbow to Jon's nose) in round 2 is not worth more than 4 minutes of octagon control, TD, and gnp.



Im sorry, but defending a takedown for most of the round is successful octagon control by the person defending, not the one attempting the unsuccessful takedowns.

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Post #49   2/27/11 10:17:50PM   

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Posted by bjj1605

It doesn't matter that BJ didn't mount much offense if fitch didn't either. As Blueskies pointed out the number of strikes he threw didn't matter because they were weak and with the exception of a few good elbows didn't do anything.

My god, you want to see one clip of Jon Fitch stalling? I'm starting to think you didn't even watch his fight with BJ Penn. The majority of the third round was one big long stall.

Why does he have to pass guard? Because that's what we call "advancing position" and its required by the Unified Rules of MMA. There is absolutely no excuse for a fighter to sit in an opponents guard and not even attempt to past. That is the definition of stalling and lay and pray. If you aren't advancing you're stalling. And I didn't say Fitch never threw shots, I said he never postured up to throw shots. The one way to land effective ground and pound from the guard is to posture up. You aren't stopping any one with that garbage Fitch was throwing at BJ penn last night.

Also, notice the word you used to describe what Fitch did to BJ. "Nullifying." Thats really just a euphemism for stalling. You're just beating around the bush and refusing to admit what everyone else knows is obvious.

Finally, YES---- watch him do nothing. I would not pay to watch Jon Fitch do what he does.



BJ's face disagrees that Fitch's strikes did nothing...and BJ's face is made of leather. his face looked worse last night than the 50 minutes Frankie used to punch him in the face standing. Penn landed a grand total of 1 significant strike, and that one busted Fitch's nose.

how is landing 150 punches stalling? i guess Sonnen stalled against Silva then right? no excuse for not passing?? come on man we get you are a jiu-jitsu nuthugger and probably creamed during Maia's pre-Silva fights but not every fighter is some BJJ expert. he pounded BJ's face in while receiving almost no damage in return (except for that one elbow). sure he isnt going to stop anyone, but i dont see anyone stopping Fitch.

the bottom guys "nullify" or stall more so than the top guys because they are like fish out of water on their backs. why do you always see guys clasping their hands behind the guys back praying for a standup? but yet the guy on top is to blame right?

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Post #50   2/27/11 10:34:16PM   

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Posted by Pookie


Posted by Bubbles


Posted by icantthinkofanything

Rematch needed


bj won rd 1 and 2, he made Fitch bleed, punched and elbowed more... and took Fitch down. dominant position 2 near finishing chokes...






really? superficial damage is part of your scoring criteria?



Its the reason we know Fitch's ground and pound in the third was effective.

To ignore superficial damage altogether is worse than factoring it in as a means of understanding the damage of strikes you didnt feel with your own head.



im not saying to ignore it completely, but it shouldnt weigh that much. any elbow can cause a cut, but that doesnt mean he wins the round based on that

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Post #51   2/27/11 10:37:26PM   

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Posted by Pookie


Posted by Bubbles

im sorry but there was no way Penn won that fight. taking Fitch's back for 15 seconds half assed a RNC attempt, one significant strike (elbow to Jon's nose) in round 2 is not worth more than 4 minutes of octagon control, TD, and gnp.



Im sorry, but defending a takedown for most of the round is successful octagon control by the person defending, not the one attempting the unsuccessful takedowns.



i agree, but is it safe to assume you were one of the many who cried "SHOGUN GOT ROBBED!!!!!"? Machida stuffed every single TD attempt in the 1st 3 rounds and the striking was fairly even. how do you think Couture beat Vera? the guy leaning on his opponent against the cage attempting takedowns is viewed as "octagon control." i agree its BS, but thats the way it works

and one succesful takedown overrides like 3 failed ones

Last edited 2/27/11 10:47PM server time by Bubbles
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Post #52   2/27/11 10:40:35PM   

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Posted by Bubbles


Posted by Pookie


Posted by Bubbles

im sorry but there was no way Penn won that fight. taking Fitch's back for 15 seconds half assed a RNC attempt, one significant strike (elbow to Jon's nose) in round 2 is not worth more than 4 minutes of octagon control, TD, and gnp.



Im sorry, but defending a takedown for most of the round is successful octagon control by the person defending, not the one attempting the unsuccessful takedowns.



i agree, but is it safe to assume you were one of the many who cried "SHOGUN GOT ROBBED!!!!!"? Machida stuffed every single TD attempt in the 1st 3 rounds and the striking was fairly even. how do you think Couture beat Vera? the guy leaning on his opponent against the cage attempting takedowns is viewed as "octagon control." i agree its BS, but thats the way it works



Actually, this is what i had to say about Shogun v. Machida.
All foolishness aside, I feel Shogun v. Machida was different. Shogun's strikes were far more significant and the fight was more stand-up fighting than anything. When the fight is mostly played out in a particular area, that area should be weighed more heavily.
Which is why a judge of Shogun V. Machida should place more emphasis on what happened on the feet rather than the sporadic takedowns of shogun, and Why the second round of Penn v. Fitch was decided by the nullification of fitch's takedowns. Thats all that really happened.

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Post #53   2/27/11 10:47:14PM   

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i suppose it's too late to chime in and say how unbelievably boring jon fitch is...

Post #54   2/27/11 10:47:58PM   

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Posted by Pookie


Posted by Bubbles


Posted by Pookie


Posted by Bubbles

im sorry but there was no way Penn won that fight. taking Fitch's back for 15 seconds half assed a RNC attempt, one significant strike (elbow to Jon's nose) in round 2 is not worth more than 4 minutes of octagon control, TD, and gnp.



Im sorry, but defending a takedown for most of the round is successful octagon control by the person defending, not the one attempting the unsuccessful takedowns.



i agree, but is it safe to assume you were one of the many who cried "SHOGUN GOT ROBBED!!!!!"? Machida stuffed every single TD attempt in the 1st 3 rounds and the striking was fairly even. how do you think Couture beat Vera? the guy leaning on his opponent against the cage attempting takedowns is viewed as "octagon control." i agree its BS, but thats the way it works



Actually, this is what i had to say about Shogun v. Machida.
All foolishness aside, I feel Shogun v. Machida was different. Shogun's strikes were far more significant and the fight was more stand-up fighting than anything. When the fight is mostly played out in a particular area, that area should be weighed more heavily.
Which is why a judge of Shogun V. Machida should place more emphasis on what happened on the feet rather than the sporadic takedowns of shogun, and Why the second round of Penn v. Fitch was decided by the nullification of fitch's takedowns. Thats all that really happened.




true, but a few minutes of those 3 rounds were spent with Shogun attempting TDs on the cage. i would guess to say 4-5 of those 15 minutes was of Shogun attempting TDs. you cant ignore that. and like i said the striking was fairly even. sure Shogun landed more leg kicks, but didnt Machida land more to the face in the opening 15 minutes? i could be mistaken but thats what i remember

p.s. that post seemed like it was prefight :P

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Post #55   2/27/11 10:51:56PM   

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The people who think BJ won are probably the same people who believe Nick Ring won.... lol

Post #56   2/27/11 11:11:16PM   

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Posted by warglory


Posted by jlock003

Ok I've seemed to have sparked some controversy. Let me clarify something that I obviously didn't represent well in my initial post. IN MY OPIONION Fitch should have won the fight. I get the criticism. Yes Fitch neutralizing Penn on the ground is impressive, but it is exactly what everyone expected to happen. The ground work was still boring! Can I appreciate the skill yes...and I tried to state that in my first post, but the leaning against the cage, the body control, and the tiny shots that don't do damage nor create openings are exceedingly boring. Fitch is very talented and really good at what he does, but Fitch will not sell tickets. Somebody mentioned earlier that the guys in the early days of mma were just haphazardly throwing caution to the wind and brawling? I feel like Bas Rutten, Frank Shamrock, Ken Shamrock, and every other pioneer who helped the game evolve would disagree with that statement. Yes there were some Tank Abbotts in the mix, but several of the forefathers of the sport fought in times where the fight had to be finished in order to get the W. All that being said, the scoring issues are horrific. MMA needs to devise a new scoring method that more accurately assesses who won the fight. I appreciate Fitch's modesty and as I've said five times now I appreciate his talent, but the guy is still boring at the end of the day. GSP closes Kos' eye with a jab, neutralizes him on the ground, and takes his lunch money and everybody says, "He can't finish fights!" Well guess what 13 of his 21 wins have come by stoppage and the last on was in January of 09. Fitch hasn't stopped anybody sinse June of 07. Fans get disgruntled with decisions. I understand that it is part of the game, but it shouldn't be so predictable when it comes to any particular fighter. Fitch won the fight imo, but he did it in the most boring way possible. He can be a nice guy, that doesn't make him exciting or marketable.



Again, if you don't like wrestling or BJJ, there's no reason why you should watch MMA, and there's no pleasant way to sugar coat that. This fight was classic wrestling vs BJJ, with both guys jockeying on the ground. The cage work was only a portion of the fight, and there was a lot going on in that fight with wrist control and inside striking which again, is a big part of MMA.

The old days of the UFC were not as glorious as everyone makes them out to be. Those days were dominated by wrestlers who controlled on the ground without much striking. The actual strikers were mostly brawlers, including the strikers that were considered good, and very few of those early KO's were pretty or technical. It wasn't until Vitor Belfort, Chuck Liddell , Andrei Arlovski and a few others came along that striking really started to become a viable alternative to grappling.

You mentioned three guys, and only two of those guys put on relatively entertaining fights, and really, in terms of the UFC, Bas and Frank were rarities, and the only real one of the bunch who truly showed a good striking base was Bas, and even that was very brief (Bas was busted up at that point in his career, which showed in his fight with Randleman which was a REAL snoozefest).



One: I do appreciate the wrestling and BJJ aspects of mma when those arts are used in an effort to gain a dominant position in an effort to end the fight. If you like wrist control for the sake of wrist control watch BJJ tourneys. Sorry if that come accross as overly aggressive toward you as I don't even know who you are. If you want to know what I mean by wrist control for the sake of gaining a position to end the fight watch the Silva/Sonnen fight. For the record I also think Sonnen is a boring fighter mainly b/c of his inability to finish a fight in spite of throwing a compustrikes record number of strikes. Personal preference is a major portion of viewership in mma period.

Two: Many pioneers of "The sport of MMA" never even fought in the UFC. The original pancrase tournaments never had time limits. Those tourneys are where Bas, and Frank started their legendary careers. The sport is far better today than in those days, but to ignore its history as if it was somehow a bunch of barroom brawls is an ignorant approach. Again sorry if that sounds personally focused. It's truly not meant to be.

Lastly: Fitch is a good fighter, Chael Sonnen is a good fighter, Anderson Silva is a good fighter even when he is running in circles around Damien Maia. The difference between Silva and those other two is everybody knows at any moment the fight could end in some highlight fashion. That's all I've been trying to say in any of my posts. Sorry again if I've been overly aggressive throughout any of these posts.

Post #57   2/27/11 11:17:08PM   

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Posted by Bubbles


Posted by bjj1605

It doesn't matter that BJ didn't mount much offense if fitch didn't either. As Blueskies pointed out the number of strikes he threw didn't matter because they were weak and with the exception of a few good elbows didn't do anything.

My god, you want to see one clip of Jon Fitch stalling? I'm starting to think you didn't even watch his fight with BJ Penn. The majority of the third round was one big long stall.

Why does he have to pass guard? Because that's what we call "advancing position" and its required by the Unified Rules of MMA. There is absolutely no excuse for a fighter to sit in an opponents guard and not even attempt to past. That is the definition of stalling and lay and pray. If you aren't advancing you're stalling. And I didn't say Fitch never threw shots, I said he never postured up to throw shots. The one way to land effective ground and pound from the guard is to posture up. You aren't stopping any one with that garbage Fitch was throwing at BJ penn last night.

Also, notice the word you used to describe what Fitch did to BJ. "Nullifying." Thats really just a euphemism for stalling. You're just beating around the bush and refusing to admit what everyone else knows is obvious.

Finally, YES---- watch him do nothing. I would not pay to watch Jon Fitch do what he does.



BJ's face disagrees that Fitch's strikes did nothing...and BJ's face is made of leather. his face looked worse last night than the 50 minutes Frankie used to punch him in the face standing. Penn landed a grand total of 1 significant strike, and that one busted Fitch's nose.

how is landing 150 punches stalling? i guess Sonnen stalled against Silva then right? no excuse for not passing?? come on man we get you are a jiu-jitsu nuthugger and probably creamed during Maia's pre-Silva fights but not every fighter is some BJJ expert. he pounded BJ's face in while receiving almost no damage in return (except for that one elbow). sure he isnt going to stop anyone, but i dont see anyone stopping Fitch.

the bottom guys "nullify" or stall more so than the top guys because they are like fish out of water on their backs. why do you always see guys clasping their hands behind the guys back praying for a standup? but yet the guy on top is to blame right?



So if the punches were so effective how come after 150 of them he still couldn't stop BJ? A couple of bruises don't make up for the fact that they contributed nothing towards finishing the fight.

And the difference with Chael Sonnen (something I mentioned in my post if you would read a little closer) is that he postured up to get power behind his strikes. I do think though in that fight people though Sonnen was doing better than he actually was. Silva rocked him several times standing and landed lots of strikes from the bottom. It was just so shocking Sonnen looked like he was doing better than he actually was.

And I don't just appreciate BJJ. I wrestled for two years in highschool and I wrestle at my MMA gym now. But takedowns should be a means to an end, not an end in themselves. If you take a guy down it should be because you want to submit him or pound him out. There needs to be a step two. With Fitch its just "I got the takedown. I'm done."

And bottom guys do stall sometimes. You can tell when they do it. They lock up and don't move and look at the ref. I hate that just as much as I hate what Fitch does.

But, if a guy is on his back actively working for submissions and dominant grips while defending the GNP, he should win the round. Jeff Curran vs Takeya Mizugaki is a good example. So is Jon Fitch vs Diego Sanchez. If you get a takedown and do nothing with it, while the guy on his back is working offense, the takedown doesn't count for much IMO.

Post #58   2/27/11 11:38:55PM   

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Posted by Pookie


Posted by warglory

Jon Fitch doesn't stall. Just because there isn't slick BJJ maneuvers doesn't mean there's no grappling happening. Fitch was nullifying Penn's jits with his top game, and then did whatever he wanted with the striking, and that's what made it incredible to watch. You see boring, and I see an experienced wrestler destroying one of the best jiu jitsu players in the game.







Fighters should be awarded for successful defense. And with this in mind i can clearly see how a 10-8 is appropriate in the third round.

BUT, by this rationale, i can not see how you can give fitch the second round. Penn was nullifying Fitch's wrestling with his spawl. The amount of successful defense by Penn and unsuccessful offense by Fitch, won Penn a very close second round.

And if the defense exhibited by a fighter shouldn't be scored as controlling a round, then i see no reason for a 10-8 fitch round, when the most impressive thing about that round was his ability to shut down penn's offense.




Penn was successful in his take down defense, but he was still taken down, and suffered through two other take down attempts as well. On the ground, Penn got Fitch's back, but he didn't do anything with it. Fitch quickly got the reversal and landed the most significant strikes of the fight. Offensively, and defensively, Fitch was superior in round two.

Post #59   2/28/11 12:12:19AM   

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Posted by jlock003


Posted by warglory


Posted by jlock003

Ok I've seemed to have sparked some controversy. Let me clarify something that I obviously didn't represent well in my initial post. IN MY OPIONION Fitch should have won the fight. I get the criticism. Yes Fitch neutralizing Penn on the ground is impressive, but it is exactly what everyone expected to happen. The ground work was still boring! Can I appreciate the skill yes...and I tried to state that in my first post, but the leaning against the cage, the body control, and the tiny shots that don't do damage nor create openings are exceedingly boring. Fitch is very talented and really good at what he does, but Fitch will not sell tickets. Somebody mentioned earlier that the guys in the early days of mma were just haphazardly throwing caution to the wind and brawling? I feel like Bas Rutten, Frank Shamrock, Ken Shamrock, and every other pioneer who helped the game evolve would disagree with that statement. Yes there were some Tank Abbotts in the mix, but several of the forefathers of the sport fought in times where the fight had to be finished in order to get the W. All that being said, the scoring issues are horrific. MMA needs to devise a new scoring method that more accurately assesses who won the fight. I appreciate Fitch's modesty and as I've said five times now I appreciate his talent, but the guy is still boring at the end of the day. GSP closes Kos' eye with a jab, neutralizes him on the ground, and takes his lunch money and everybody says, "He can't finish fights!" Well guess what 13 of his 21 wins have come by stoppage and the last on was in January of 09. Fitch hasn't stopped anybody sinse June of 07. Fans get disgruntled with decisions. I understand that it is part of the game, but it shouldn't be so predictable when it comes to any particular fighter. Fitch won the fight imo, but he did it in the most boring way possible. He can be a nice guy, that doesn't make him exciting or marketable.



Again, if you don't like wrestling or BJJ, there's no reason why you should watch MMA, and there's no pleasant way to sugar coat that. This fight was classic wrestling vs BJJ, with both guys jockeying on the ground. The cage work was only a portion of the fight, and there was a lot going on in that fight with wrist control and inside striking which again, is a big part of MMA.

The old days of the UFC were not as glorious as everyone makes them out to be. Those days were dominated by wrestlers who controlled on the ground without much striking. The actual strikers were mostly brawlers, including the strikers that were considered good, and very few of those early KO's were pretty or technical. It wasn't until Vitor Belfort, Chuck Liddell , Andrei Arlovski and a few others came along that striking really started to become a viable alternative to grappling.

You mentioned three guys, and only two of those guys put on relatively entertaining fights, and really, in terms of the UFC, Bas and Frank were rarities, and the only real one of the bunch who truly showed a good striking base was Bas, and even that was very brief (Bas was busted up at that point in his career, which showed in his fight with Randleman which was a REAL snoozefest).



One: I do appreciate the wrestling and BJJ aspects of mma when those arts are used in an effort to gain a dominant position in an effort to end the fight. If you like wrist control for the sake of wrist control watch BJJ tourneys. Sorry if that come accross as overly aggressive toward you as I don't even know who you are. If you want to know what I mean by wrist control for the sake of gaining a position to end the fight watch the Silva/Sonnen fight. For the record I also think Sonnen is a boring fighter mainly b/c of his inability to finish a fight in spite of throwing a compustrikes record number of strikes. Personal preference is a major portion of viewership in mma period.

Two: Many pioneers of "The sport of MMA" never even fought in the UFC. The original pancrase tournaments never had time limits. Those tourneys are where Bas, and Frank started their legendary careers. The sport is far better today than in those days, but to ignore its history as if it was somehow a bunch of barroom brawls is an ignorant approach. Again sorry if that sounds personally focused. It's truly not meant to be.

Lastly: Fitch is a good fighter, Chael Sonnen is a good fighter, Anderson Silva is a good fighter even when he is running in circles around Damien Maia. The difference between Silva and those other two is everybody knows at any moment the fight could end in some highlight fashion. That's all I've been trying to say in any of my posts. Sorry again if I've been overly aggressive throughout any of these posts.



No need to apologize, clearly we watch the sport for different reasons and I can respect that, no need to go any further with this.

Post #60   2/28/11 12:29:47AM   
 
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