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Fight Metric report for BJ Penn vs Jon Fitch draw

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BJ won that fight.

Post #31   2/27/11 5:08:37PM   

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The only boring part of the fight was the third round (consequently the one round that Fitch won. The first two rounds were very exciting and pretty competitive. Then Fitch did what he does, bore the fans, bore his opponent, bore the judges so they stop paying attention....

I love grappling. I love wrestling. I love jiu jitsu. I hate watching Fitch fight. He's that guy in a jiu jitsu tournament who scores two points and then goes into lock down mode so he can stall his way to a decision. He doesn't even attempt submissions.

BJ Penn should have won that fight according to the current 10-9 system. He won the first two rounds 10-9 and Fitch won the third 10-9. Fitch's round was the most dominant one, but it didn't warrant a 10-8 by any means. I don't think any round of any fight that Fitch has ever won should be a 10-8 round. He simply doesn't do enough. He never even attempted to pass BJ's guard. He never postured up to throw shots.

29-28 in Favor of BJ Penn is the right way to score that fight.

Also, for all the people acting like disliking Jon Fitch means you aren't a fan of MMA.... get off your high horse. As stated above I love everything about grappling except for the part where guys stall. If they aren't actually GRAPPLING (which entails movement) then saying what they are doing is boring doesn't mean I can't appreciate the ground game. Thats like saying if I didn't like Anderson Silva's fights with Thales Leites and Demian Maia then I don't like striking. Problem was, he wasn't STRIKING in those fights.

I refuse to ever buy a PPV headlined by Jon Fitch. The only possible exceptions would be if he fights GSP again or if he fights Silva. I'd love to see him get beat down. He owes me something for all the minutes of my life I've spent watching him do nothing.

Post #32   2/27/11 5:19:49PM   

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Haters keep hatin'.

WAR FITCH. KEEP HATIN' HATERS!

Last edited 2/27/11 5:48PM server time by emfleek
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Post #33   2/27/11 5:30:45PM   

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BJ Penn should have won that fight according to the current 10-9 system. He won the first two rounds 10-9 and Fitch won the third 10-9. Fitch's round was the most dominant one, but it didn't warrant a 10-8 by any means. I don't think any round of any fight that Fitch has ever won should be a 10-8 round. He simply doesn't do enough. He never even attempted to pass BJ's guard. He never postured up to throw shots.



You are obviously uneducated as far as the unified rules of MMA. If round three was a 10-9 round, you need to internally decapitate someone for a 10-8. Going by the rules, that could have been a 10-7. BJ offered- NO submission threats, NO successful transitions, NO takedowns, NO reversals, and I think two strikes to Fitch's 140+. If that's a 10-9 round, I am Jimmy Hoffa.

Penn was praying for a draw. He doesn't want the rematch. I do because I'd love to see him get punched in the face about a hundred times again. He looked broken after round three, the same way he looked broken after round four of his rematch with GSP where is corner threw in the towel.

Penn himself said he lost that fight.

Last edited 2/27/11 10:16PM server time by emfleek
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Post #34   2/27/11 5:44:38PM   

warglory

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Posted by GSPCanada

I will comment on the fight and then I will comment on Fitch's style.

the first round went to bj the 3rd round went to fitch, I don't think a 10-8 round involves someone almost being finished in my opinion bj did not do enough to earn 9, that is why he only got 8 he had as much offense as a punching bag in that final frame. I had it scored 10-8 myself if bj could have gotten up, threatened with a submission, threw some strikes from the bottom i would say 10-9. first round was penn, second rd was penn but the reversal at the end did have some good action from fitch, it could have gone either way, I personally thought it went to fitch but maybe that's because he was winning more towards the end of the round, probably should have been a 10-10 round which we don't see enough of

Bj didn't win the fight, no way. I thought Fitch won, but a draw is understandable.

Fitch is boring, he does one thing, yes, and he does it very well, but he is refusing to evolve and until he does so it is hard to make a case for him to headline a card against GSP, yes he has 13 wins in the ufc but only 4 of those guys are still in the ufc. it is one thing to win by decision, but like someone said earlier, look at GSP he wins by decision but he is close to finishing he shows good striking good submission attempts and good gnp. fitch wins the same way everytime which is his job but it shows me he hasn't made improvements, and based upon the beating he took in his title fight he needs to prove he has made DRASTIC changes. koscheck and gsp 1 was a close fight but koscheck came back and had knockouts and submissions that is why he got his rematch. fitch was never close and he has shown nothing that says he will be any closer



Fitch avoids submissions much better, and his striking has improved, so he is evolving.

Post #35   2/27/11 5:46:37PM   

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Posted by pmoney

Penn himself said he lost that fight. Get his d!ck out of your mouth.


Uncalled for. Let's keep it civil, please.

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Post #36   2/27/11 5:48:14PM   

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Posted by bjj1605

The only boring part of the fight was the third round (consequently the one round that Fitch won. The first two rounds were very exciting and pretty competitive. Then Fitch did what he does, bore the fans, bore his opponent, bore the judges so they stop paying attention....

I love grappling. I love wrestling. I love jiu jitsu. I hate watching Fitch fight. He's that guy in a jiu jitsu tournament who scores two points and then goes into lock down mode so he can stall his way to a decision. He doesn't even attempt submissions.



Show me one clip in a Fitch fight where he stalls, just one clip. Call him boring if you want, but he does not lay and pray. Tito lays and prays, and the old Koscheck laid and prayed, but Fitch doesn't.



BJ Penn should have won that fight according to the current 10-9 system. He won the first two rounds 10-9 and Fitch won the third 10-9. Fitch's round was the most dominant one, but it didn't warrant a 10-8 by any means. I don't think any round of any fight that Fitch has ever won should be a 10-8 round. He simply doesn't do enough. He never even attempted to pass BJ's guard. He never postured up to throw shots.

29-28 in Favor of BJ Penn is the right way to score that fight.



Based on what criteria? Fitch had more take downs, the superior striking and the superior grappling. Why does Fitch have to pass guard when he is content in punching your face in from your guard? Round 3 was 10-8, clearly, because Penn had no offense whatsoever, so why should be earn the points? How can you say Fitch never threw shots when he spent the whole third round pounding Penn?



Also, for all the people acting like disliking Jon Fitch means you aren't a fan of MMA.... get off your high horse. As stated above I love everything about grappling except for the part where guys stall. If they aren't actually GRAPPLING (which entails movement) then saying what they are doing is boring doesn't mean I can't appreciate the ground game. Thats like saying if I didn't like Anderson Silva's fights with Thales Leites and Demian Maia then I don't like striking. Problem was, he wasn't STRIKING in those fights.



Jon Fitch doesn't stall. Just because there isn't slick BJJ maneuvers doesn't mean there's no grappling happening. Fitch was nullifying Penn's jits with his top game, and then did whatever he wanted with the striking, and that's what made it incredible to watch. You see boring, and I see an experienced wrestler destroying one of the best jiu jitsu players in the game.



I refuse to ever buy a PPV headlined by Jon Fitch. The only possible exceptions would be if he fights GSP again or if he fights Silva. I'd love to see him get beat down. He owes me something for all the minutes of my life I've spent watching him do nothing.



Watch him do nothing?

Post #37   2/27/11 5:55:06PM   

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Posted by warglory


Posted by motorboatensob

Everyone on here seems to be forgetting that wining a Dec is the last resort in a fight not your priority. Back when there were no rounds or time limit you had to finish the fight. Fitch never tried to advance his position or any kind of finish and three inch punches sure aren't going to finish BJ Penn. Everyone complains about Brock doing this but when Fitch lays on people its STRAIGY whatever. BJ tried more than once to finish the fight and had Fitch wanted to stand he would have tried there as well. Fitch is very good at what he does he wrestles and that's were he should be wrestling this is MMA and your goal is to finish the fight and any one who says it isn't has never fought. You never leave to the judges and you never leave you opponent the chance to catch you.



Back when there were no rounds, it was a bunch of yahoos throwing at each other haphazardly, or not engaging at all. There's no comparison between the "sport" then and now.

When did BJ try and finish the fight? He had one moment with the rnc, but that lasted what, 15 seconds? Fitch was the better BJJ fighter in this fight, and the better wrestler as shown in round 3. This fight should have had Fitch as the victor, plain and simple.



He had two chocks and my point in the whole thing is Fitch means to just ride the fight out never once did he try to finish and for that reason he got a draw. When you do no more then peck at someones head for three and a half min its not going to win you a fight or a title shot. Fitch won one round at best and it should have been stood up after the first min and a half with Fitch not trying to even pass. As far as the better BJJ fight come on he got put in more bad spots couldn't pass BJ guard and BJ got up from two of the three positions Fitch had him in. At my gym we are taught to finish the fight when ever you can and you can't deny that Fitch's whole game plan is to ride the fight out which is why he hasn't finished a fight since 07.

Post #38   2/27/11 5:59:22PM   

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Posted by motorboatensob


Posted by warglory


Posted by motorboatensob

Everyone on here seems to be forgetting that wining a Dec is the last resort in a fight not your priority. Back when there were no rounds or time limit you had to finish the fight. Fitch never tried to advance his position or any kind of finish and three inch punches sure aren't going to finish BJ Penn. Everyone complains about Brock doing this but when Fitch lays on people its STRAIGY whatever. BJ tried more than once to finish the fight and had Fitch wanted to stand he would have tried there as well. Fitch is very good at what he does he wrestles and that's were he should be wrestling this is MMA and your goal is to finish the fight and any one who says it isn't has never fought. You never leave to the judges and you never leave you opponent the chance to catch you.



Back when there were no rounds, it was a bunch of yahoos throwing at each other haphazardly, or not engaging at all. There's no comparison between the "sport" then and now.

When did BJ try and finish the fight? He had one moment with the rnc, but that lasted what, 15 seconds? Fitch was the better BJJ fighter in this fight, and the better wrestler as shown in round 3. This fight should have had Fitch as the victor, plain and simple.



He had two chocks and my point in the whole thing is Fitch means to just ride the fight out never once did he try to finish and for that reason he got a draw. When you do no more then peck at someones head for three and a half min its not going to win you a fight or a title shot. Fitch won one round at best and it should have been stood up after the first min and a half with Fitch not trying to even pass. As far as the better BJJ fight come on he got put in more bad spots couldn't pass BJ guard and BJ got up from two of the three positions Fitch had him in. At my gym we are taught to finish the fight when ever you can and you can't deny that Fitch's whole game plan is to ride the fight out which is why he hasn't finished a fight since 07.



Lets take a look at how many times Fitch's opponents since 2007 have been finished in the last 5 years:

Thiago Alves - 1 out of 12 (by Fitch)
Ben Saunders - 1 out of 11
Mike Pierce - 0 out of 15
Paulo Thiago - 0 out of 15
Akihiro Gono - 1 out of 13
GSP - 1 out of 11
Chris Wilson - 2 out of 12
Diego Sanchez - 1 out of 12
Roan Carniero - Fitch finished
Luigi Fioravanti - Fitch finished

I can deny that Fitch "rides out" victories, because he actively dominates in most of his fights, finish or not. What you learn in your classes in terms of finishing fights is irrelevant to the conversation at hand, because I doubt anyone in your gym has the accolades that Jon Fitch has, no offense.

Fitch doesn't need to pass people's guards because he is content in beating you up within your guard. Furthermore, Fitch did more in that fight than Penn did, and Fight Metric backs it up, round by round.


Last edited 2/27/11 6:35PM server time by warglory
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Post #39   2/27/11 6:31:22PM   

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Posted by warglory


Posted by motorboatensob


Posted by warglory


Posted by motorboatensob

Everyone on here seems to be forgetting that wining a Dec is the last resort in a fight not your priority. Back when there were no rounds or time limit you had to finish the fight. Fitch never tried to advance his position or any kind of finish and three inch punches sure aren't going to finish BJ Penn. Everyone complains about Brock doing this but when Fitch lays on people its STRAIGY whatever. BJ tried more than once to finish the fight and had Fitch wanted to stand he would have tried there as well. Fitch is very good at what he does he wrestles and that's were he should be wrestling this is MMA and your goal is to finish the fight and any one who says it isn't has never fought. You never leave to the judges and you never leave you opponent the chance to catch you.



Back when there were no rounds, it was a bunch of yahoos throwing at each other haphazardly, or not engaging at all. There's no comparison between the "sport" then and now.

When did BJ try and finish the fight? He had one moment with the rnc, but that lasted what, 15 seconds? Fitch was the better BJJ fighter in this fight, and the better wrestler as shown in round 3. This fight should have had Fitch as the victor, plain and simple.



He had two chocks and my point in the whole thing is Fitch means to just ride the fight out never once did he try to finish and for that reason he got a draw. When you do no more then peck at someones head for three and a half min its not going to win you a fight or a title shot. Fitch won one round at best and it should have been stood up after the first min and a half with Fitch not trying to even pass. As far as the better BJJ fight come on he got put in more bad spots couldn't pass BJ guard and BJ got up from two of the three positions Fitch had him in. At my gym we are taught to finish the fight when ever you can and you can't deny that Fitch's whole game plan is to ride the fight out which is why he hasn't finished a fight since 07.



Lets take a look at how many times Fitch's opponents since 2007 have been finished in the last 5 years:

Thiago Alves - 1 out of 12 (by Fitch)
Ben Saunders - 1 out of 11
Mike Pierce - 0 out of 15
Paulo Thiago - 0 out of 15
Akihiro Gono - 1 out of 13
GSP - 1 out of 11
Chris Wilson - 2 out of 12
Diego Sanchez - 1 out of 12
Roan Carniero - Fitch finished
Luigi Fioravanti - Fitch finished

I can deny that Fitch "rides out" victories, because he actively dominates in most of his fights, finish or not. What you learn in your classes in terms of finishing fights is irrelevant to the conversation at hand, because I doubt anyone in your gym has the accolades that Jon Fitch has, no offense.

Fitch doesn't need to pass people's guards because he is content in beating you up within your guard. Furthermore, Fitch did more in that fight than Penn did, and Fight Metric backs it up, round by round.



* golf clap *

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Post #40   2/27/11 7:16:03PM   

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My argument is against FightMetric. I'm not going to enter the "Fitch is boring," "Fitch doesn't deserve another shot," or "Penn/Fitch won the fight" arguments.

Personally, I say give Fitch his damn rematch so GSP can beat the brakes off of him a second time and then we will NEVER have to hear about Fitch getting another title shot, as long as GSP holds the belt, again.

Using FightMetric to suit your argument is absolutely ridiculous. You have an after the fact and carefully tabulated piece of paper to prove your point. Hindsight is 20/20 and people never use FightMetric accurately when they bring it in to play.

They'll happily point out that Fitch landed more strikes than Penn and he should have won, yadda yadda yadda, but they won't focus on the fact that the majority of those strikes were low percentage and didn't do anything.

If I poke someone in the chest 45 times and they throw one punch that knocks me out, FightMetric will have me out-landing them 45-1, guess what? It didn't f*cking matter, I got knocked out.

FightMetric is, from a statistical standpoint, a poorly constructed measurement tool. There's only two categories they recognize; low percentage and high percentage. The world of MMA isn't that black and white.

It's also highly subjective. THEY are telling YOU what a low percentage shot and a high percentage shot is. A strike doesn't have to be A or B. It can be C, D, or E.

Post #41   2/27/11 8:24:37PM   

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Posted by pmoney

You are obviously uneducated as far as the unified rules of MMA. If round three was a 10-9 round, you need to internally decapitate someone for a 10-8. Going by the rules, that could have been a 10-7. BJ offered- NO submission threats, NO successful transitions, NO takedowns, NO reversals, and I think two strikes to Fitch's 140+. If that's a 10-9 round, I am Jimmy Hoffa.

Penn was praying for a draw. He doesn't want the rematch. I do because I'd love to see him get punched in the face about a hundred times again. He looked broken after round three, the same way he looked broken after round four of his rematch with GSP where is corner threw in the towel.

Penn himself said he lost that fight. Get his d!ck out of your mouth.



First of all, the way you talk undermines any point you could possibly make. If you want to act like a moron why don't you head over to sherdog's forums or comment on some youtube videos. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't give you the right to insult them or thier knowledge.

Second, read the rules. Unified Rules of MMA

It doesn't matter that BJ didn't mount much offense if fitch didn't either. As Blueskies pointed out the number of strikes he threw didn't matter because they were weak and with the exception of a few good elbows didn't do anything.



Posted by warglory

Posted by bjj1605 The only boring part of the fight was the third round (consequently the one round that Fitch won. The first two rounds were very exciting and pretty competitive. Then Fitch did what he does, bore the fans, bore his opponent, bore the judges so they stop paying attention.... I love grappling. I love wrestling. I love jiu jitsu. I hate watching Fitch fight. He's that guy in a jiu jitsu tournament who scores two points and then goes into lock down mode so he can stall his way to a decision. He doesn't even attempt submissions.
Show me one clip in a Fitch fight where he stalls, just one clip. Call him boring if you want, but he does not lay and pray. Tito lays and prays, and the old Koscheck laid and prayed, but Fitch doesn't.

BJ Penn should have won that fight according to the current 10-9 system. He won the first two rounds 10-9 and Fitch won the third 10-9. Fitch's round was the most dominant one, but it didn't warrant a 10-8 by any means. I don't think any round of any fight that Fitch has ever won should be a 10-8 round. He simply doesn't do enough. He never even attempted to pass BJ's guard. He never postured up to throw shots. 29-28 in Favor of BJ Penn is the right way to score that fight.
Based on what criteria? Fitch had more take downs, the superior striking and the superior grappling. Why does Fitch have to pass guard when he is content in punching your face in from your guard? Round 3 was 10-8, clearly, because Penn had no offense whatsoever, so why should be earn the points? How can you say Fitch never threw shots when he spent the whole third round pounding Penn?

Also, for all the people acting like disliking Jon Fitch means you aren't a fan of MMA.... get off your high horse. As stated above I love everything about grappling except for the part where guys stall. If they aren't actually GRAPPLING (which entails movement) then saying what they are doing is boring doesn't mean I can't appreciate the ground game. Thats like saying if I didn't like Anderson Silva's fights with Thales Leites and Demian Maia then I don't like striking. Problem was, he wasn't STRIKING in those fights.
Jon Fitch doesn't stall. Just because there isn't slick BJJ maneuvers doesn't mean there's no grappling happening. Fitch was nullifying Penn's jits with his top game, and then did whatever he wanted with the striking, and that's what made it incredible to watch. You see boring, and I see an experienced wrestler destroying one of the best jiu jitsu players in the game.

I refuse to ever buy a PPV headlined by Jon Fitch. The only possible exceptions would be if he fights GSP again or if he fights Silva. I'd love to see him get beat down. He owes me something for all the minutes of my life I've spent watching him do nothing.
Watch him do nothing?




My god, you want to see one clip of Jon Fitch stalling? I'm starting to think you didn't even watch his fight with BJ Penn. The majority of the third round was one big long stall.

Why does he have to pass guard? Because that's what we call "advancing position" and its required by the Unified Rules of MMA. There is absolutely no excuse for a fighter to sit in an opponents guard and not even attempt to past. That is the definition of stalling and lay and pray. If you aren't advancing you're stalling. And I didn't say Fitch never threw shots, I said he never postured up to throw shots. The one way to land effective ground and pound from the guard is to posture up. You aren't stopping any one with that garbage Fitch was throwing at BJ penn last night.

Also, notice the word you used to describe what Fitch did to BJ. "Nullifying." Thats really just a euphemism for stalling. You're just beating around the bush and refusing to admit what everyone else knows is obvious.

Finally, YES---- watch him do nothing. I would not pay to watch Jon Fitch do what he does.


My argument is against FightMetric. I'm not going to enter the "Fitch is boring," "Fitch doesn't deserve another shot," or "Penn/Fitch won the fight" arguments. Personally, I say give Fitch his damn rematch so GSP can beat the brakes off of him a second time and then we will NEVER have to hear about Fitch getting another title shot, as long as GSP holds the belt, again. Using FightMetric to suit your argument is absolutely ridiculous. You have an after the fact and carefully tabulated piece of paper to prove your point. Hindsight is 20/20 and people never use FightMetric accurately when they bring it in to play. They'll happily point out that Fitch landed more strikes than Penn and he should have won, yadda yadda yadda, but they won't focus on the fact that the majority of those strikes were low percentage and didn't do anything. If I poke someone in the chest 45 times and they throw one punch that knocks me out, FightMetric will have me out-landing them 45-1, guess what? It didn't f*cking matter, I got knocked out. FightMetric is, from a statistical standpoint, a poorly constructed measurement tool. There's only two categories they recognize; low percentage and high percentage. The world of MMA isn't that black and white. It's also highly subjective. THEY are telling YOU what a low percentage shot and a high percentage shot is. A strike doesn't have to be A or B. It can be C, D, or E.


Thanks for posting that. I've been arguing against Fight Metric ever since it surfaced. Those numbers do more to mislead than they do to explain. You can watch a fight and know who won. Look at those numbers and suddenly you doubt your eyes. The problem is that those statistics don't measure the important things, as you mentioned.

Post #42   2/27/11 9:16:07PM   

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Posted by bjj1605



Thanks for posting that. I've been arguing against Fight Metric ever since it surfaced. Those numbers do more to mislead than they do to explain. You can watch a fight and know who won. Look at those numbers and suddenly you doubt your eyes. The problem is that those statistics don't measure the important things, as you mentioned.



No problem, I don't have a problem with FightMetric, per se, as I think it's interesting to have those statistics, even though they're worth very little. I have a problem with people using FightMetric for anything more than just a tidbit of information.

In the world of Academia FightMetric is what we would refer to as a non-scholarly source. It's like Wikipedia, sure it's usually pretty accurate, but it's highly subjective and not usable in a real debate.

People should not use FightMetric for anything other than just interesting information.

Post #43   2/27/11 9:34:35PM   

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Sorry mojo but MMA isn't "sports entertainment"...it is AN ACTUAL SPORT! .

Post #44   2/27/11 9:36:20PM   

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Posted by icantthinkofanything

Rematch needed


bj won rd 1 and 2, he made Fitch bleed, punched and elbowed more... and took Fitch down. dominant position 2 near finishing chokes...






really? superficial damage is part of your scoring criteria?

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Post #45   2/27/11 9:50:18PM   
 
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