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Fedor Emelianenko Will Not Win The Strikeforce HWGP Tournament

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prozacnation1978

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I don't either
Sweet tournament but I got the reem winning it all

Post #16   1/25/11 7:11:58PM   

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Posted by JoeWarren33

To the Overeem haters, and ppl who don't give him the respect. Maybe after he wins this tourny he will get some love. Either way, he is better than any UFC HW.....ever....PERIOD!!!!!



Based on what? Who in the hell has Overeem fought within that last 5 years that even qualifies as a solid win? Belfort was his last big win and that took place in June of 2006. Matter of fact, in MMA, Belfort might be his only "big" win. Kharitonov is solid, too, I guess, but he's also lost to him.

He's lost to

Liddell
Rogerio (x2)
Shogun (x2)
Werdum
Arona
Kharitonov

You may like Overeem's style, but you cannot, in any way, qualify your statement. He does not have wins over top MMA competition.

If your best win is over Vitor Belfort, you're not even better than Velasquez at this point.

Post #17   1/25/11 8:07:20PM   

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Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


Posted by JoeWarren33

To the Overeem haters, and ppl who don't give him the respect. Maybe after he wins this tourny he will get some love. Either way, he is better than any UFC HW.....ever....PERIOD!!!!!



Based on what? Who in the hell has Overeem fought within that last 5 years that even qualifies as a solid win? Belfort was his last big win and that took place in June of 2006. Matter of fact, in MMA, Belfort might be his only "big" win. Kharitonov is solid, too, I guess, but he's also lost to him.

He's lost to

Liddell
Rogerio (x2)
Shogun (x2)
Werdum
Arona
Kharitonov

You may like Overeem's style, but you cannot, in any way, qualify your statement. He does not have wins over top MMA competition.

If your best win is over Vitor Belfort, you're not even better than Velasquez at this point.



I get what you're saying, and Joe's statements aren't exactly enlightening, but the way he's run over decent MMA competition and the way he's abused the top of the K-1 food chain show that he's come a long way in recent years, big name MMA wins under his belt or not.

Let's not forget that he was cutting a ton of weight to fight at LHW earlier in his career and seemed to gas and fade in fights he clearly was ahead in. His big knock was always his gas tank, take out the weight cuts and he's performed extremely well save the loss to Sergei.

Let's not forget he also beat Igor, and Rogers when he was still considered by many to be in or near the top 10. Those wins are definitely worth mentioning and I'm guessing got strategically left out of your argument.

Lastly, the 'Reem has a ton of submission wins to his credit and he's clearly as elite of a striker as there is in MMA now, and maybe ever. He has all the tools in his shed to win this tourney and he has to be considered the favorite from the get go.

I'll be pulling for Fedor, but the one guy I really fear taking him out is AO. Werdum got his 1 win against Fedor already so I figure he needs about 99 more fights with him to do it again, and Barney is tough to get behind because he gets suspended more often than he fights lately. I want to see Fedor against Werdum and Barney in the tournament so he can add those guys to his "list", and that way he can fight 'Reem for the belt after the tourney. Should he win the belt afterwards, he's basically cleaned out the HW division outside of the UFC and hopefully people will shut up about Fedor fighting nobodies.

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Post #18   1/25/11 8:45:55PM   

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I'm not a hater..just havn't been convinced of his awesomeness...very good..yes...but not yet awesome for me. If he wins it will certainly legitimize him in my book

better than any UFC HW ever? no way...he can contend, but not the best

and to answer your ideal rebuttle...I do not know who the best is ever...I couldn't say, but I can't throw that title at Overeem


Posted by JoeWarren33

To the Overeem haters, and ppl who don't give him the respect. Maybe after he wins this tourny he will get some love. Either way, he is better than any UFC HW.....ever....PERIOD!!!!!

Post #19   1/25/11 9:33:04PM   

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Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Based on what? Who in the hell has Overeem fought within that last 5 years that even qualifies as a solid win? Belfort was his last big win and that took place in June of 2006. Matter of fact, in MMA, Belfort might be his only "big" win. Kharitonov is solid, too, I guess, but he's also lost to him.

He's lost to

Liddell
Rogerio (x2)
Shogun (x2)
Werdum
Arona
Kharitonov

You may like Overeem's style, but you cannot, in any way, qualify your statement. He does not have wins over top MMA competition.

If your best win is over Vitor Belfort, you're not even better than Velasquez at this point.



I gotta agree here. Im not denying the possibility that Alistair COULD be the best heavyweight in the world. Hell, based on his K-1 performances he could be the best fighter in the world period.

But at the end of the day, they dont hand out #1 rankings and p4p considerations for "could-be"s. George St. Pierres and Anderson Silva are the best because they consistently fight the best. Now theyre even bringing in guys from other orgs like Shields and Belfort to continue fighting the best. And Im sorry, knocking out guys like Fujita and Duffee and submitting guys like James Thompson isnt gonna do it for Alistair. If he wants to be considered the best, he needs to step up imo.

Say what you will about Velasquez, but he's beaten much better competition on a more consistent basis.

Post #20   1/25/11 10:35:55PM   

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I don't see why people doubt Fedor. He got caught in a submission...stuff happens. I mean he was absolutely tooling Werdum...Werdum needed a miracle and got one.

I personally which Fedor and Werdum were matched up in the first round, so I could see Fedor vs Werdum 2, Fedor vs Overeem, then Fedor vs Barnett. But whatever.

Post #21   1/25/11 10:55:33PM   

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Posted by MMA-San

I don't see why people doubt Fedor. He got caught in a submission...stuff happens. I mean he was absolutely tooling Werdum...Werdum needed a miracle and got one.

I personally which Fedor and Werdum were matched up in the first round, so I could see Fedor vs Werdum 2, Fedor vs Overeem, then Fedor vs Barnett. But whatever.




Uh, Werdum got "tooled" at no point in that fight. Werdum got punched and then Fedor jumped into the guard of a BJJ World CHampion Black Belt. I don't understand where a Black belt submitting anyone who recklessly jumps into his guard should be considered a "miracle."

Plus, the fight only lasted one minute, hardly enough time for the winning fighter to get "Tooled."

That being said, i like the concept of the tourney and most of the fighters in it. The brackets are too one sided. Anytime Fedor, Silva, Overeem and Werdum are on one side and the toughest guy on the other side is Barnett, that's completely unbalanced.

But whatever, I'll still be watching

Post #22   1/25/11 11:03:06PM   

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Posted by cowcatcher

I get what you're saying, and Joe's statements aren't exactly enlightening, but the way he's run over decent MMA competition and the way he's abused the top of the K-1 food chain show that he's come a long way in recent years, big name MMA wins under his belt or not.

Let's not forget that he was cutting a ton of weight to fight at LHW earlier in his career and seemed to gas and fade in fights he clearly was ahead in. His big knock was always his gas tank, take out the weight cuts and he's performed extremely well save the loss to Sergei.

Let's not forget he also beat Igor, and Rogers when he was still considered by many to be in or near the top 10. Those wins are definitely worth mentioning and I'm guessing got strategically left out of your argument.

Lastly, the 'Reem has a ton of submission wins to his credit and he's clearly as elite of a striker as there is in MMA now, and maybe ever. He has all the tools in his shed to win this tourney and he has to be considered the favorite from the get go.

I'll be pulling for Fedor, but the one guy I really fear taking him out is AO. Werdum got his 1 win against Fedor already so I figure he needs about 99 more fights with him to do it again, and Barney is tough to get behind because he gets suspended more often than he fights lately. I want to see Fedor against Werdum and Barney in the tournament so he can add those guys to his "list", and that way he can fight 'Reem for the belt after the tourney. Should he win the belt afterwards, he's basically cleaned out the HW division outside of the UFC and hopefully people will shut up about Fedor fighting nobodies.



Igor and Rogers didn't get strategically left out. Igor's fight with Overeem was the second to the last of his career. He only fought one time after that and lost. Fighting someone in their twilight, despite what they accomplished early, isn't going to get you any points from me when he's been ducking top competition for 5 solid years.

As to Rogers, OTHERS may have anointed him and referred to him as a top competitor, but I sure as hell never did. He's a banger, I don't ever see him having tons of success against top competition. He's Houston Alexander at best. Be fearful of his punching power, but a solid gameplan by a solid fighter ought to yield the same results that Fedor had 9 times out of 10.

Even if Overeem was cutting massive weight, perhaps he shouldn't have been taking those fights if he saw that the cut was too much and he wasn't even having any sort of success against top flight competition.

I knew people would mention K-1. I don't. It's different rules than SF, Pride, or UFC. I'm strictly referring to MMA competition. Overeem has had tons of success against relative cans and MAYBE mid-level fights and almost zero success against what *we* would consider to be top-tier fighters.

Once Overeem stops fighting complete nobodies with no wins over anyone as a means to defend his title, I'll give the guy some credit. As it stands right now, all of the things he's accusing Fedor of doing; ducking him and top competition, Overeem is guilty of himself.

I'm not saying Fedor has been fighting great competition lately, but I can make a stronger case for Fedor because he actually has wins over top competition in their prime and Overeem has none.

Post #23   1/26/11 12:01:53AM   

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Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Igor and Rogers didn't get strategically left out. Igor's fight with Overeem was the second to the last of his career. He only fought one time after that and lost. Fighting someone in their twilight, despite what they accomplished early, isn't going to get you any points from me when he's been ducking top competition for 5 solid years.



Igor had won 5 or 6 straight when they fought and was 40-something and 8 when they fought. He wasn't the world beater he once was, but he was still winning fights. It was kind of a shocker when he hung them up, so you can't discount that win so easily and have it hold water with me.


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

As to Rogers, OTHERS may have anointed him and referred to him as a top competitor, but I sure as hell never did. He's a banger, I don't ever see him having tons of success against top competition. He's Houston Alexander at best. Be fearful of his punching power, but a solid gameplan by a solid fighter ought to yield the same results that Fedor had 9 times out of 10.



If the consensus among the "experts" is that the guy is at or near the top ten it is credible, no matter what your personal opinion was. Fedor didn't win that fight on gameplan either, he basically survived a really tough spot and showed off his punching power when he got the chance. It was a special fighter showing why he is so good.


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Even if Overeem was cutting massive weight, perhaps he shouldn't have been taking those fights if he saw that the cut was too much and he wasn't even having any sort of success against top flight competition.



Maybe he shouldn't have but he did, and he was a solid fighter that gave top guys trouble there. Not to mention that eventually he did see that and now he's being mentioned as one of the best in the world...


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

I knew people would mention K-1. I don't. It's different rules than SF, Pride, or UFC. I'm strictly referring to MMA competition. Overeem has had tons of success against relative cans and MAYBE mid-level fights and almost zero success against what *we* would consider to be top-tier fighters.



You seriously don't think that his K-1 success has any crossover value? We all know it's not the same rules, but to not take his K-1 performances into consideration when evaluating him as a MMA fighter is absurd to me. His stand up may be the best in the world, something from that is going to transfer over to the cage.


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Once Overeem stops fighting complete nobodies with no wins over anyone as a means to defend his title, I'll give the guy some credit. As it stands right now, all of the things he's accusing Fedor of doing; ducking him and top competition, Overeem is guilty of himself.



I can't disagree with this, except that I don't think he's fought nobodies. The guys he's beaten are very experienced fighters, or up and comers. He has been a hypocrite in calling Fedor out on these things, and I'm glad he's going to be fighting top shelf guys for the next couple outings so we can see just where he's at.


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

I'm not saying Fedor has been fighting great competition lately, but I can make a stronger case for Fedor because he actually has wins over top competition in their prime and Overeem has none.



OK, I'm with you to a certain degree. I really think that his K-1 run of late has to be taken seriously.

Like I said before, the guy can sub people, he's proven that time and time again, and with the kind of striking and physical presence he brings to the table, he's a force to be reckoned with. He does indeed need to fight some top flight competition, and he will be very soon. At that point we will see for sure how good(or not) he really is. My guess is that he's going to prove a lot of doubters wrong.

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Post #24   1/26/11 12:28:47AM   

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If you are talking about what a fighter has done in the HW division, Alistair is nothing special. If you are talking about who you think Alistair would beat in the HW division, I think you have a lot better case.

Post-horse meat diet Ubereem is hardly the same fighter that fought back in the day. Talking about his fight with Chuck is like talking about Tom Brady at Michigan. It don't matter no more. 'Reem's striking isn't even comparable to what it was then.

Will Reem last a full fifteen in a cage without gassing like a hippo in quicksand? I don't know. Would he be able to stop a takedown from the likes of Cain or Brock? I highly doubt it. Will he come to the cage with an over-sized hammer and a front-only Jeri-curl from hell? I wish. But I do know that right now Overeem will win a fight against almost anyone in the world in either an MMA match or a K-1 ring, and that is pretty damn impressive.

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Post #25   1/26/11 12:49:09AM   

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Posted by cowcatcher

Igor had won 5 or 6 straight when they fought and was 40-something and 8 when they fought. He wasn't the world beater he once was, but he was still winning fights. It was kind of a shocker when he hung them up, so you can't discount that win so easily and have it hold water with me.



I'll concede this. It's just clear his heart wasn't in it anymore at that point and he retired after two losses. Something clicked off in Igor's head and just makes me wonder whether or not he actually gave it 100% during that fight. Either way, he lost. I'll give it to you.



If the consensus among the "experts" is that the guy is at or near the top ten it is credible, no matter what your personal opinion was. Fedor didn't win that fight on gameplan either, he basically survived a really tough spot and showed off his punching power when he got the chance. It was a special fighter showing why he is so good.



What were they basing Rogers as a top ten fighter off of? Lack of solid HW's? It sure as hell wasn't his completely outstanding game. Fedor is a really special fighter, but I didn't see anything in that Rogers fight that I haven't seen out of Fedor before in a previous fight. Fujita NAILED Fedor and he bounced right back and did the same thing. That was just "Fedor being Fedor."

As analysts usually do in sports, they prematurely ranked Rogers in and near the top ten. Turns out that the guy isn't as good as people "though" he was. It's sort of like Preseason College rankings. What's the point? All he'd beaten was Andrei Arlovski who...well..yeah.



Maybe he shouldn't have but he did, and he was a solid fighter that gave top guys trouble there. Not to mention that eventually he did see that and now he's being mentioned as one of the best in the world...



Only by virtue of being the Strikeforce champion and his striking ability. Overeem gained the Strikeforce title when the best available fighter they had for him was Paul Buentello. Since then he's dodged, ducked, dipped, dived and dodged any top level HW. If he wins this, he'll have some really good names in the HW division.



You seriously don't think that his K-1 success has any crossover value? We all know it's not the same rules, but to not take his K-1 performances into consideration when evaluating him as a MMA fighter is absurd to me. His stand up may be the best in the world, something from that is going to transfer over to the cage.



I don't really feel his K-1 success has any crossover value other than the striking experienced he's gained doing it? Stand-up is just one component of the entire process and, while he does have submission wins, his best two submission wins came against Igor and Belfort. He's been submitted by high-level grapplers and knocked out by high level strikers.



I can't disagree with this, except that I don't think he's fought nobodies. The guys he's beaten are very experienced fighters, or up and comers. He has been a hypocrite in calling Fedor out on these things, and I'm glad he's going to be fighting top shelf guys for the next couple outings so we can see just where he's at.



Up-and-comers actually need to get to where they are supposed to be going before we can look back on them and say he's fought up and comers. Right now Rogers' only quality win is against a glass-chined Arlovski. I'm sorry, I won't call that a solid win. Especially since, recently, Arlovski's face has spent more time on his face than David Hasselhoff after an all-night bender and Carl's Jr run.



OK, I'm with you to a certain degree. I really think that his K-1 run of late has to be taken seriously.

Like I said before, the guy can sub people, he's proven that time and time again, and with the kind of striking and physical presence he brings to the table, he's a force to be reckoned with. He does indeed need to fight some top flight competition, and he will be very soon. At that point we will see for sure how good(or not) he really is. My guess is that he's going to prove a lot of doubters wrong.



I'm not a doubter, I'm just a "shut up and do it'er" He and everyone else talks about how great he is, he's certainly shown he can do it, but he's not done it against anyone in the HW division. Once he does, cool. Until then, he's a nobody in the HW division just like ncordless said.

Post #26   1/26/11 1:23:48AM   

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Posted by ChokeUout


Posted by MMA-San

I don't see why people doubt Fedor. He got caught in a submission...stuff happens. I mean he was absolutely tooling Werdum...Werdum needed a miracle and got one.

I personally which Fedor and Werdum were matched up in the first round, so I could see Fedor vs Werdum 2, Fedor vs Overeem, then Fedor vs Barnett. But whatever.




Uh, Werdum got "tooled" at no point in that fight. Werdum got punched and then Fedor jumped into the guard of a BJJ World CHampion Black Belt. I don't understand where a Black belt submitting anyone who recklessly jumps into his guard should be considered a "miracle."

Plus, the fight only lasted one minute, hardly enough time for the winning fighter to get "Tooled."

That being said, i like the concept of the tourney and most of the fighters in it. The brackets are too one sided. Anytime Fedor, Silva, Overeem and Werdum are on one side and the toughest guy on the other side is Barnett, that's completely unbalanced.

But whatever, I'll still be watching



There wasn't a bright spot in that fight for Fedor other than the manliest tap in MMA history.

Post #27   1/26/11 6:18:57AM   

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Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Once he does, cool. Until then, he's a nobody in the HW division just like ncordless said.



The last thing I remember reading from ncordless is that AO can beat just about anybody in the world in mma or k-1 and that's impressive...you seem to have what those of us that are parents develop: selective hearing(reading in this case).

I don't want to come off as douchey, but I have to wonder if you're an AO hater, or just not very good at evaluating talent. I don't think it's hard to see the leaps and bounds AO has improved by even if he isn't fighting top flight guys. He is going out there and just brutally destroying MMA vets and K-1's best. He has a certain air about him now that is palpable before he fights, as if finally everything is clicking for him. It doesn't matter what arena it's in, there has to be some recognition of just how good of a fighter he is at this point in his career. Maybe you're just playing devil's advocate for the sake of debate, and that's cool, but I think you are undervaluing him greatly as a fighter.

Is Fedor the favorite to win the tourney in your mind? I could see anyone thinking that, and it wouldn't be a stretch by any means. I'm just curious as to who you think will win the thing.

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Post #28   1/26/11 9:42:01AM   

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Here's how I see it. You certainly can't leave Overeem out of any top 10 conversation within the HW division. He lacks the solid competition for the division but he certainly has the potential and the toolset to show he can take top honors. I think this nice little tournement SF has brewed up will potentialy make or break AO. If he can take the whole thing I may just place him as the number one HW. The one thing I can give Overeem that I can't give a lot of the rising HW's in the UFC is the experince. JDS,Carwin,Brock,Cain, are all beast. No one can deny that but we have to wait and see how some of these guys can handle their first big loss as well. We've seen so many tough guys climb the ranks only to burn out and any 4 of those could be subject to that as well.

As for Brett Rogers I think it's too early to pass judgement. Yes he's lost 2 out of his last 3 fights but look at who he dropped those bouts to. He may just end up at gatekeeper status but I can't put him their just yet. He's going to half to go down a time or two more to some good competition first.

Post #29   1/26/11 12:41:47PM   

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Posted by cowcatcher


The last thing I remember reading from ncordless is that AO can beat just about anybody in the world in mma or k-1 and that's impressive...you seem to have what those of us that are parents develop: selective hearing(reading in this case).




Posted by ncordless

If you are talking about what a fighter has done in the HW division, Alistair is nothing special. If you are talking about who you think Alistair would beat in the HW division, I think you have a lot better case.



You're saying something different than I am Cowcatcher. I'm talking about what he's done. Nothing. Not compared to other heavyweights currently ranked behind him.

I don't want to come off as douchey, but I have to wonder if you're an AO hater, or just not very good at evaluating talent. I don't think it's hard to see the leaps and bounds AO has improved by even if he isn't fighting top flight guys. He is going out there and just brutally destroying MMA vets and K-1's best. He has a certain air about him now that is palpable before he fights, as if finally everything is clicking for him. It doesn't matter what arena it's in, there has to be some recognition of just how good of a fighter he is at this point in his career. Maybe you're just playing devil's advocate for the sake of debate, and that's cool, but I think you are undervaluing him greatly as a fighter.

Is Fedor the favorite to win the tourney in your mind? I could see anyone thinking that, and it wouldn't be a stretch by any means. I'm just curious as to who you think will win the thing.


You're talking about what he could be if he actually fought legitimate contenders. I'm talking about what he's done. You think that I"m an AO hater, I'm not. I've said it time and time again. Beat some actual contenders in MMA and I'll silence my concerns.

I'm not going to anoint someone because of what they COULD do. I hate when people do that. There's analysis and then there's telling me how great someone is just based of potential. I recognize that he's got all the talent in the world, but I'm not going to crown the guy when, comparatively speaking, he's been fighting jokes in the HW division, while guys like Velasquez, Lesnar, Mir, Dos Santos have been taking on all comers.

I'm undervaluing him because he's undervalued himself. What Overeem is doing is the basic equivalent of Pujols going back down to the minors for a rehab stint and staying there because he's hitting 60 HR's a season and batting .400

Sure, the talent is there, but let's actually see that talent in action. You're asking me to say the guy is extremely great when he's lost 95% of his fights against top MMA competition. Semmy Schilt was a great K-1 fighter too. He had mixed success in MMA as well. He never fared well against top names, though. Until Overeem does, I'm not gonna praise the guy.

I have the same problem with people who try to put Rivers and Rodgers in the "elite" QB club. They aren't there. I don't care what kind of numbers you put up, you need to show clutch performances and win games that count before you're elite.

Yes, there are QB's who are elite that never won a Super Bowl, but those were also QB's that, when the game was on line and the chips were down, you felt like, if they were in the game, it was never over. I haven't seen that yet out of either Rodgers or Rivers.

Rodgers is certainly a HELL of a lot closer and can cement himself among the elite here in a week or so, but he's not elite, yet, like people are saying he is.

I don't know who is going to win the tournament. I think Fedor, Overeem, Barnett or Werdum could win it all. I'm as excited to see what Overeem does when he has to face top challengers as the next person.

Post #30   1/26/11 3:54:06PM   
 
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