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Joe Riggs: 'Sarah Kaufman is lucky to be on TV, the men are what people are here to see'

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BlueSkiesBurn

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Yeah, Softball is out, but that's also got a lot to do with the fact that Baseball is out AND the U.S. women are just too dominant.

Post #31   8/13/10 4:05:50AM   

StriderXero

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I just recently came from Japan and went to the Jewels 9 event. It was pretty entertaining to me. Almost all the fights on the card were finishes, except the last 2. But even those fights were exciting to me.

I love female MMA. If someone were to throw me some tickets for a UFC event, i would go in a heartbeat. Everyone knows that men are more physical than women.

But to me I still get the same excitement from women fighting as from men. They almost always seem to give it their all at every show.

Post #32   8/13/10 8:18:20AM   

AchillesHeel

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Posted by Aether

I don't think the issue with women's MMA is really sexism[...]


If the issue you're talking about is men writing off females fighters only because they're women, then it's pretty much the definition of sexism.

If you wrote off my MMA skills because I wear glasses and listen to The Cure, I would think you're a moron. You should be writing off my MMA skills because I'm out of shape and haven't trained any martial arts in years.


Posted by Aether

I think it's the same issue that it is in every sport - Women's bodies are not as well suited to extreme physical competition as men's. They don't have as much muscle, they aren't as fast or as strong, and as a result the best female athletes will never be able to compete at the same level as the best male athletes in any sport that revolves around speed and strength.


And it's also true that men who aren't as strong or as fast as other men will never be able to compete at the same level as the best male athletes. Some people will only watch UFC main-card fights. Others, like myself, will watch MMA at just about any level. I watched Bellator last night, and if I can, I'll watch Strikeforce Challengers tonight.

If someone says "I only enjoy watching the elite fighters" and, as a result, they very rarely watch any women's matches (or any undercard matches, or any King of the Cage matches, or any TUF matches), that would not be sexist. Saying "I don't like watching women's matches because [blah-blah-blah]" is sexist. See the difference?


Posted by Aether

There's a reason men and women don't compete together in the same sports - it wouldn't be fair.


It also wouldn't be fair for Urijah Faber to compete against Brock Lesnar. There are some people who think the Heavyweights are by definition the best fighters, and they aren't wrong - I expect Brock Lesnar would kill Urijah Faber. Does that mean you don't like watching Faber fight other 150-lb guys?


Posted by Aether

It may sound sexist, but it's really just being honest IMO.


The two aren't mutually-exclusive. Lots of people are dishonest about their prejudices.

Post #33   8/13/10 10:23:55AM   

prozacnation1978

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I gotta say I would rather watch sarah kaufman on a main card than joe riggs
He may just be jealous that she has gold around her waist and he never will

Post #34   8/13/10 12:40:32PM   

MaxOne

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Posted by bjj1605

You can try to be progressive and politically correct all you want. Women aren't as exciting to watch and they never will be. There are physical difference between men and women that are mandated by nature. Society cannot change nature no matter how hard it tries.

I'd rather watch men fight any time. I think the same goes for you too Blueskies even though you deny it.

On a related note, I just realized we have no prominent female Playground members.



it's because females don't screw around on internet message boards....they are too busy being amazing mma fighters.

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Post #35   8/13/10 3:17:32PM   

MaxOne

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Posted by Aether

I don't think the issue with women's MMA is really sexism, I think it's the same issue that it is in every sport - Women's bodies are not as well suited to extreme physical competition as men's. They don't have as much muscle, they aren't as fast or as strong, and as a result the best female athletes will never be able to compete at the same level as the best male athletes in any sport that revolves around speed and strength. There's a reason men and women don't compete together in the same sports - it wouldn't be fair. It's the same reason that female sports aren't popular.

It may sound sexist, but it's really just being honest IMO. Different people are better at different things, men have the advantage of having testosterone, which makes them far better at physical competition.




that sounds hormoneist to me but I agree.

nothing against sweet lady mma but normally it's not as fun to watch because it's often sloppy. I'd watch an entire card of woman but I wouldn't order a PPV that way. I am all for women training and competing but I would be a liar if I said I thought their fights were generally as good as the men's fights.

Joe shouldn't have made those comments. he must trying to get some attention after seeing how well that worked for Chael. he should have just said he's not a big fan of watching women fight. he's right that people normally tune into to see the men fight but mixing it up the way strikeforce has been doing is cool. it should help femmma continue to grow

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Post #36   8/13/10 3:41:03PM   

machodog76

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My biggest problem with womens MMA is that the talent pool is so shallow, The level and quantity of talent is no where near the men's. There just aren't as many women doing it. Although the japanese chick on Belator last night was realy fun to watch on the ground. A fights a fight though and some times I think the women go for broke more often. I'd like to see a stat on how many women's fights vs men's go to the score cards I bet women finish more often.

Post #37   8/13/10 6:20:18PM   

BustedKnuckle

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Wow this thread really took off. Sarah's slam was one of the best moments in women's MMA history for sure. And a hell of a moment in MMa in 2010. I just can get into watchimg women beat and batter each other. It has nothing to do with how technical they are or how strong/fast they are. I suppose it is kind of a sexist view. I belive they should have every opportunity men get but I just dont enjoy watching it!!

Post #38   8/13/10 8:38:21PM   

bjj1605

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I hate that we live in a society where recognizing real and permanent differences between people makes you prejudiced. Instead of pretending everyone is the same can't we just celebrate our differences?

Women aren't as strong or fast or as athletically inclined in almost all cases. That means that the fights are less technical and often have fewer finishes. It also means generally that they take more punches and fight more vigorously. A lot of women's MMA that I see degenerates into a brawl where both women take a lot of shots and neither gets knocked out. Some people enjoy fights like that. Some people enjoy Clay Guida fights. I can't stand Clay Guida fights. I think that he is lacking in technique and finishing power. Same reason I don't like women's MMA.

I understand that some people do like it. If there's a market for it women's MMA will grow. If enough people out there enjoy watching the fights it's inevitable that they will get more exposure.

I am not and probably never will be a fan of women's MMA. At least not in the sense I am for men's MMA. I watch the fights if they are on a card. I'm not going to make a beer run just because women are fighting. But I would never pay money for an all women's card. I might watch a free one if I had nothing to do and nothing better was on.

However, I reject the idea that my feelings are in some way sexist, wrong, immoral, ignorant, or in any other way negative. I have a right to my likes and dislikes. I don't think pointing out the obvious fact that men and women are different should cause people to criticize me. It's nature and no matter how progressive and egalitarian society tries to be they can't change genetic differences between the sexes.

Last edited 8/14/10 2:10AM server time by bjj1605
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Post #39   8/14/10 2:08:40AM   

AchillesHeel

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Posted by bjj1605

I hate that we live in a society where recognizing real and permanent differences between people makes you prejudiced.


Recognizing differences isn't what makes a person prejudiced. Misapplying differences is the problem. For example, claiming that people who are unlikely to get sunburns can't swim or manage professional sports clubs is a prejudice. Particularly stupid ones, I think.


Posted by bjj1605

Instead of pretending everyone is the same can't we just celebrate our differences?


Being a straight guy, I celebrate women's -ahem- differences quite frequently.


Posted by bjj1605

Women aren't as strong or fast or as athletically inclined in almost all cases.


This has become a mantra around here. The fact that you qualified it with "in almost all cases" suggests that you've seen female athletes who impressed or entertained you with their strength, speed or athleticism.


Posted by bjj1605

A lot of women's MMA that I see degenerates into a brawl where both women take a lot of shots and neither gets knocked out. Some people enjoy fights like that. Some people enjoy Clay Guida fights. I can't stand Clay Guida fights. I think that he is lacking in technique and finishing power. Same reason I don't like women's MMA.


If you'd stopped at "I can't stand fights where both [fighters] take a lot of shots and neither gets knocked out", you wouldn't have said anything sexist.

According to Merriam-Webster Online, sexism is "prejudice or discrimination based on sex", and prejudice can be defined as "[a] preconceived judgment or opinion, [or] an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge."

So claiming that no fighter who happens to be a woman can ever be the kind of fighter you enjoy watching literally meets the dictionary definition of sexism.


Posted by bjj1605

I am not and probably never will be a fan of women's MMA. At least not in the sense I am for men's MMA.


Very succinct.


Posted by bjj1605

However, I reject the idea that my feelings are in some way sexist, wrong, immoral, ignorant, or in any other way negative.


The discussion about whether sexism is wrong, immoral, or negative could be a long one. However, it seems inarguable that you're discriminating between fighters on the basis of gender.


Posted by bjj1605

I have a right to my likes and dislikes.


In many countries, yes. It's a constant struggle, though.


Posted by bjj1605

I don't think pointing out the obvious fact that men and women are different should cause people to criticize me.


It is getting a little old, but no, it's not really worthy of criticism.

Post #40   8/14/10 9:17:41AM   

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It's not sexist. The majority of female fights that I see are the kind of fights that I don't like. Sure there are exceptions, but statistically I find men's fights more exciting. I live in the US and I am certainly entitled to that opinion.

If you thought that most of the baseball games you watched were boring would you continuously watch baseball on the off chance that you see one that you like? Probably not. Because the majority of the time you don't like it. So you won't be as inclined to watch it on the off chance that you do at one point.

I think I essentially said what you claimed "would not have been sexist." I don't like Clay Guida fights. I don't like fights that I find similar to Clay Guida fights. The majority of fights with women I see remind me of the parts of Clay's fights that I don't like. Therefore I don't like the majority of women's fights. Because I don't like most of them (although I can think of exceptions) I don't make it a habit of watching them.

I think you get the point I'm making and at this point you are really just arguing semantics. No one is telling you that you have to stop watching women's MMA. But the market will decide whether or not it survives, and it seems at the moment that it is decidedly losing to men's MMA in the rankings.

Post #41   8/14/10 7:28:43PM   

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Posted by SmileR

"I don't know what that [Sarah Kaufman] is talking about. She's lucky to even be on TV. As long as [women fighters] don't say things like they don't want to be on the Challengers card and they want to be main events than they're good. We're the show. The men are what people are here to see."

Strikeforce Challengers 10 headliner Joe Riggs doesn't mind being on a "Challengers" card -- but does mind when 135-pound Women's Champion Sarah Kaufman complains that she's not getting enough exposure as a division champion. "Diesel" faces Louis Taylor in this Friday's main event on a card that features a women's elimination tournament to determine a future contender for Kaufman's belt. So how about it Maniacs, are you tuning in to see Riggs do his thing or the ladies do theirs?

Link



Funny you say that Joe, because I only watched the womens tourney, I did not watch your fight.

Post #42   8/14/10 8:36:23PM   

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Posted by StriderXero

I just recently came from Japan and went to the Jewels 9 event. It was pretty entertaining to me. Almost all the fights on the card were finishes, except the last 2. But even those fights were exciting to me.

I love female MMA. If someone were to throw me some tickets for a UFC event, i would go in a heartbeat. Everyone knows that men are more physical than women.

But to me I still get the same excitement from women fighting as from men. They almost always seem to give it their all at every show.



I completely agree.

Post #43   8/14/10 10:46:59PM   

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Posted by AchillesHeel


Posted by Aether

I don't think the issue with women's MMA is really sexism[...]


If the issue you're talking about is men writing off females fighters only because they're women, then it's pretty much the definition of sexism.

If you wrote off my MMA skills because I wear glasses and listen to The Cure, I would think you're a moron. You should be writing off my MMA skills because I'm out of shape and haven't trained any martial arts in years.


Posted by Aether

I think it's the same issue that it is in every sport - Women's bodies are not as well suited to extreme physical competition as men's. They don't have as much muscle, they aren't as fast or as strong, and as a result the best female athletes will never be able to compete at the same level as the best male athletes in any sport that revolves around speed and strength.


And it's also true that men who aren't as strong or as fast as other men will never be able to compete at the same level as the best male athletes. Some people will only watch UFC main-card fights. Others, like myself, will watch MMA at just about any level. I watched Bellator last night, and if I can, I'll watch Strikeforce Challengers tonight.

If someone says "I only enjoy watching the elite fighters" and, as a result, they very rarely watch any women's matches (or any undercard matches, or any King of the Cage matches, or any TUF matches), that would not be sexist. Saying "I don't like watching women's matches because [blah-blah-blah]" is sexist. See the difference?


Posted by Aether

There's a reason men and women don't compete together in the same sports - it wouldn't be fair.


It also wouldn't be fair for Urijah Faber to compete against Brock Lesnar. There are some people who think the Heavyweights are by definition the best fighters, and they aren't wrong - I expect Brock Lesnar would kill Urijah Faber. Does that mean you don't like watching Faber fight other 150-lb guys?


Posted by Aether

It may sound sexist, but it's really just being honest IMO.


The two aren't mutually-exclusive. Lots of people are dishonest about their prejudices.



Well all of these arguments essentially boil down to one point, which is that there are different sizes of people and different skill levels, neither of which refute my point at all. My point is that women can't compete at as high of a level as men, and the vast majority of people want to see the best of the best. Only a very select group of people watch undercard fights, watch 145 pound male fights, or even watch any fight that doesn't involve two contenders. It extends to all sports. Only hardcore fans of their sport will watch college mens games for the same reason - they aren't the best. Your argument kind of reinforces my point. Undercards and the WEC exist for the same reason that women's MMA isn't popular. Most people aren't interested, and it's not because they're men, it's because they're not the best or the strongest, the majority of people don't want to see them and they don't get the publicity that the UFC stars get.

People watch sports in general because they want to see super-human people performing super-human feats of athleticism. When you see Anderson Silva dodging punches like he's in the matrix or mark macguire blasting home-runs out of the park game after game people think "wow I never would've thought that was possible unless I had seen it" or "that is like something from a movie". When you watch top female competitors they may be very skilled and they may put on an exciting fight as a result of being closely matched, but at the end of the day they can't pull off the super-human feats of athleticism that the best men in the world can pull off. Neither can most men, and that's why they're on undercards, in smaller leagues, and not pulling in PPV dollars.

Everything doesn't boil down to sexism, and it's pretty offensive to be labeled sexist for simply being realistic. Different people have different abilities. Most casual viewers only want to see the best in the world. When it comes to physical competition there's no debating, the best of the best are men. As a result, women's sports will probably never have the following that male sports do.

Post #44   8/14/10 11:16:44PM   

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Posted by bjj1605


Some people enjoy Clay Guida fights. I can't stand Clay Guida fights. I think that he is lacking in technique and finishing power. Same reason I don't like women's MMA.

differences between the sexes.

John Fitch is much more technical than Guida and fights at a higher level, but I think Guida is 10 times more exciting to watch I'm surprised you hate watching his fights. To each his own. In his defense he did finish his last fight and broke the guys jaw in the first round.

Post #45   8/16/10 1:29:34PM   
 
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