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Is American wrestling stalling the progress of Mixed Martial Arts?

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If Chael Sonnen beats Anderson Silva by wrestling to a UD, will Chael replace Silva's role as a pound for pound best fighter?
yes 7 9%
no 69 91%
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icantthinkofanything

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"Is American wrestling stalling the progress of Mixed Martial Arts? Some fans think so, and after some recent matches in particular, arguments are rife that wrestlers are killing the aesthetics of the sport.

Every MMA fan, commentator and reporter has found themselves in a discussion as to who are the best fighters to watch, which is different from a discussion about who are the best fighters period. Being one of the best fighters to watch does not necessarily equate to being one of the best fighters in terms of winning accomplishments."





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Post #1   5/13/10 2:23:23PM   

Aether

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I don't think wrestling is the problem. The scoring system that is badly skewed to favour wrestlers is the problem.

Fix the scoring criteria and it won't be a problem because people won't be able to wrestle their way to a decision without trying to cause any damage.

Post #2   5/13/10 2:42:51PM   

seanfu

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If a guy can hold you down and control you then tough ****. do the north american rules and cage favor wrestlers? no doubt, so worry about the rules and not the style. Badass wrestler are THE elite.

Best wrestler at LW.... BJ Penn for sure, he controls where the fight goes unopposed excep for that single frankie edgar takedown.

Best wrestler at WW? GSP.... once again, complete control, completely unopposed in control.

Best wrestler at MW? Okami? Chael? Marquardt? All three are top of the top in the division under anderson.

Best wrestler at LHW? Lyoto had unquestionably the best takedowns and never was really on his back except the KTFO, Rashad, Rampage, all top guys.

HW goes without saying.

Wrestlers dominate the game in volume of elite fighters for sure. and the dominant champs have the best wrestling except anderson, he's just a freak of nature.

I mean hell, Warren beat Kid Yammamoto in Japan under Japanese scoring. Tell me wrestling is ruining the sport.

Post #3   5/13/10 2:46:17PM   

Taylor8766

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No Chael will not take Silva's top spot as P4P SIlva would at the very least slide down to 3rd as for Chael he would be lucky to crack the top ten. A perfect example of this was when Serra beat GSP GSP from 1st on my charts to 3rd, maybe 2nd to third, and Im not sure if Serra cracked the top ten and if he did the highest spot he would have got would have been 8th.

As for the Wrestling thing the only reason that it may slow down MMA is because everyone wants to get into wrestling before starting MMA because 90% of MMA fans believe that wrestling is the best foundation for MMA and with that they want to get a good wrestling base before fighting or even training in MMA. We've seen it numerous times with class A wrestlers have success, Couture, Lesnar, Koscheck, Hughes, Edgar and so many more have had phenomal success in MMA.

Post #4   5/13/10 2:59:49PM   

mshalosky

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I dont get where everyone is coming from with frankie edgar being a top wrestler. He is a good wrestler but not great. He is just very good overall. Veach, maynard and griffin took him down just to name a few.

Post #5   5/13/10 3:57:50PM   

RyanC

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There is nothing I hate more than watching a GnP beatdown for 15 minutes without the fight being finished. It's effective as hell, but I can't stand it. I want submissions, I want KO's. I do not want to watch anyone, no matter how good they are dominate someone with their wrestling for an entire fight on their way to a no brainer UD.

If they are trying to finish the fight throughout and can't get it done that's one thing, but if they are just going to score a takedown, and be happy with top position and throwing strikes from guard or half guard it's just not something I want to watch that much.

Really, how many people really like to watch the guys that grind out decision after decision simply by using superior wrestling to win?

Post #6   5/13/10 5:20:27PM   

bjj1605

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I think that the problem isn't something that has to be there, rather it is something we have created through faulty institutions. There are several rules that give an advantage to wrestlers and there are a few key changes that need to be made to mitigate those advantages.

For one thing, the judges need to be more educated on the intricacies of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and grappling in general. I've seen many fights where a wrestler wins based on having top position despite the fact that he actually lost the grappling exchanges. A take down in and of its self isn't an end, it's a means to an end. Barring slams that actually cause damage, takedowns should be scored only minimally (about as much as a feeler strike to set up something bigger, IMO). When you shoot a double leg the eventual goal should be to pass guard, lock in a submission, or land meaningful ground and pound from the top position. With out that the takedown is pretty worthless. If a fighter takes down his opponent and spends the whole time eating strikes from the bottom and defending submission attempts, the fighter on top is definitely loosing. By our current system the guy on top almost always wins. Look at Jeff Curran vs Takeya Mizugaki for an excellent example of what I'm talking about.

Another problem is the fact that kneeing a fighter on his knees is illegal. One of the best ways to stop a classic wrestler shot is with a knee strike, a technique that the rules effectively negate. Sure you can still land the occasional knee off of a shot, but the fear of a DQ because your opponents knees were touching the mat make it a risky strategy. I believe this is why Greco Roman Wrestling and Judo were all in all more effective in Pride than was Freestyle Wrestling. You can still outlaw knee strikes on the ground, just change the rule from "three points of contact" to "a fighter on his back."

Post #7   5/13/10 5:28:22PM   

bjj1605

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Posted by mshalosky

I dont get where everyone is coming from with frankie edgar being a top wrestler. He is a good wrestler but not great. He is just very good overall. Veach, maynard and griffin took him down just to name a few.



That has more to do with those guys being bigger and stronger than it does them being better wrestlers. Edgar is an undersized LW.

Post #8   5/13/10 5:29:05PM   

EliasG

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It's not stalling the progress of the sport it just so happens that the rules and scoring as they are defined right now, favor the wrestler. If the sport wants more KO's and subs then it will change the rules to ensure that. If you don't get points for takedowns or you get very little you'll see fewer takedowns. If people on their backs get more points for striking the person in 'dominant' position, more guys will fall to their backs to score points. It's all the constraints of the sport....guys get confused and think this is the ONLY way that fighitng can happen. It's not "fighting" it's a sport. Fighting is Krav Maga or combat ju jitsu where you are breaking fingers, poking eyes out, and hititng people in the neck. That's fighting. T his is a sport with defined rules and as the sport progresses, people find out where the rules can be exploited for their benefit/skill set.

Post #9   5/13/10 5:58:48PM   

BlueSkiesBurn

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Bjj, pretty much hit the nail on the head. I also agree with RyanC, I tend to take smoke breaks and do beer runs during matches like that. I totally don't mind if there's grappling exchanges taking place or if the wrestler is actively looking to finish the fight and can't get it done. I think after you've watched a boatload of MMA you tend to realize when those matches are taking place. I can't really explain it but I know it when I see it. I pretty much knew Koscheck was going to do exactly what he did. That's not even the worst example. I would like to see more educated judges when it comes to submission attempts from the bottom etc..I'd also like a million dollars but I don't think I will be getting that, either.

Post #10   5/13/10 6:56:40PM   

meier

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lol

Post #11   5/13/10 7:01:02PM   

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Allow knees to the head and the problem is solved. Simple as that.

_______________________________________
BJ Penn beat Frankie Edgar more times than Benson Henderson beat Frankie Edgar.

Post #12   5/13/10 7:32:24PM   

mrsmiley

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Posted by bjj1605

I think that the problem isn't something that has to be there, rather it is something we have created through faulty institutions. There are several rules that give an advantage to wrestlers and there are a few key changes that need to be made to mitigate those advantages.

For one thing, the judges need to be more educated on the intricacies of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and grappling in general. I've seen many fights where a wrestler wins based on having top position despite the fact that he actually lost the grappling exchanges. A take down in and of its self isn't an end, it's a means to an end. Barring slams that actually cause damage, takedowns should be scored only minimally (about as much as a feeler strike to set up something bigger, IMO). When you shoot a double leg the eventual goal should be to pass guard, lock in a submission, or land meaningful ground and pound from the top position. With out that the takedown is pretty worthless. If a fighter takes down his opponent and spends the whole time eating strikes from the bottom and defending submission attempts, the fighter on top is definitely loosing. By our current system the guy on top almost always wins. Look at Jeff Curran vs Takeya Mizugaki for an excellent example of what I'm talking about.

Another problem is the fact that kneeing a fighter on his knees is illegal. One of the best ways to stop a classic wrestler shot is with a knee strike, a technique that the rules effectively negate. Sure you can still land the occasional knee off of a shot, but the fear of a DQ because your opponents knees were touching the mat make it a risky strategy. I believe this is why Greco Roman Wrestling and Judo were all in all more effective in Pride than was Freestyle Wrestling. You can still outlaw knee strikes on the ground, just change the rule from "three points of contact" to "a fighter on his back."




Standing applause. This is it! The rules and judging favor wrestlers too much.
I don't feel like wrestling slows the progress of MMA at all. Of course we have seen the era of lay and pray fighters but I believe this has started to fade.

Post #13   5/13/10 7:39:24PM   

zxandu

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Posted by bjj1605

I think that the problem isn't something that has to be there, rather it is something we have created through faulty institutions. There are several rules that give an advantage to wrestlers and there are a few key changes that need to be made to mitigate those advantages.

For one thing, the judges need to be more educated on the intricacies of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and grappling in general. I've seen many fights where a wrestler wins based on having top position despite the fact that he actually lost the grappling exchanges. A take down in and of its self isn't an end, it's a means to an end. Barring slams that actually cause damage, takedowns should be scored only minimally (about as much as a feeler strike to set up something bigger, IMO). When you shoot a double leg the eventual goal should be to pass guard, lock in a submission, or land meaningful ground and pound from the top position. With out that the takedown is pretty worthless. If a fighter takes down his opponent and spends the whole time eating strikes from the bottom and defending submission attempts, the fighter on top is definitely loosing. By our current system the guy on top almost always wins. Look at Jeff Curran vs Takeya Mizugaki for an excellent example of what I'm talking about.

Another problem is the fact that kneeing a fighter on his knees is illegal. One of the best ways to stop a classic wrestler shot is with a knee strike, a technique that the rules effectively negate. Sure you can still land the occasional knee off of a shot, but the fear of a DQ because your opponents knees were touching the mat make it a risky strategy. I believe this is why Greco Roman Wrestling and Judo were all in all more effective in Pride than was Freestyle Wrestling. You can still outlaw knee strikes on the ground, just change the rule from "three points of contact" to "a fighter on his back."



I can really see where this is going. Ring control is way to overrated. Just because a fighter looks like he maybe getting the "worse" end of a grappling exchange doesn't mean that the fighter isn't executing his strategy. Ultimately the judges need to have more education on the parameters of fighting techniques and application.

Bravo bjj,

Post #14   5/13/10 9:04:00PM   

postman

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Posted by bjj1605

I think that the problem isn't something that has to be there, rather it is something we have created through faulty institutions. There are several rules that give an advantage to wrestlers and there are a few key changes that need to be made to mitigate those advantages.

For one thing, the judges need to be more educated on the intricacies of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and grappling in general. I've seen many fights where a wrestler wins based on having top position despite the fact that he actually lost the grappling exchanges. A take down in and of its self isn't an end, it's a means to an end. Barring slams that actually cause damage, takedowns should be scored only minimally (about as much as a feeler strike to set up something bigger, IMO). When you shoot a double leg the eventual goal should be to pass guard, lock in a submission, or land meaningful ground and pound from the top position. With out that the takedown is pretty worthless. If a fighter takes down his opponent and spends the whole time eating strikes from the bottom and defending submission attempts, the fighter on top is definitely loosing. By our current system the guy on top almost always wins. Look at Jeff Curran vs Takeya Mizugaki for an excellent example of what I'm talking about.

Another problem is the fact that kneeing a fighter on his knees is illegal. One of the best ways to stop a classic wrestler shot is with a knee strike, a technique that the rules effectively negate. Sure you can still land the occasional knee off of a shot, but the fear of a DQ because your opponents knees were touching the mat make it a risky strategy. I believe this is why Greco Roman Wrestling and Judo were all in all more effective in Pride than was Freestyle Wrestling. You can still outlaw knee strikes on the ground, just change the rule from "three points of contact" to "a fighter on his back."



Wait till you see the Joe Warren vs Georgi Karakhanyan fight from tonights Bellator. I'm not saying Warren lost but for a guy that did no damage and was caught in about 5 deep sub attempts 30-27 seems about far fetched to me. Anyone see it?

Post #15   5/13/10 9:23:34PM   
 
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