Big Nog has mexican boxer syndrome? CAN BE CURED!!! |
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NatedawgThaM
MMA Sensei
Career record: 343-224
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Location: New Providence, Pa
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IMO Big Nog is far from done, he just needs to get technically right. I mean his boxing offense is great but his defense after he throws isn't as good as it could be IMO he reminds me alot of those great legendary mexican boxers who always went to war, but like Nog they blocked punches with their chin and it takes a toll towards the later stages of your career and then you start getting KO'd when you wouldn't have maybe earlier in your career. I think if he touched up his boxing defense he could still make it back to the top.
The proof to prove my theory of course comes from his fight videos. In the Heath herring fight he dominated Herring and beat him up I think the whole fight besides the one time when he left his guard down like I'm saying and Herring nailed him with that head kick. Watch him stand with Big Timmy, he got dropped multiple times, great fight but I think if he learned to parry and block after he throws I don't think he would have gotten dropped that much. Also the Frank Mir fight, if this was younger Nog I think he would have beaten Frank but like I said those wars have taken it's toll and Frank Mir's stand up is freakin beastly right now so I know the staph played it's roll but I think what I'm saying had a little something to do with it too. The Randy fight, Randy doesn't have the power to KO you so he was able to still walk through his punches and use his great boxing offense to beat on Randy. But then he faced a young beast like Cain with power and got dropped.
I don't think he's done because he was taking it to Cain on the feet IMO but his lack of defense got him drilled by that vicious combo and after all them wars you just can't block punches with your chin anymore. I definitely don't think he's done, I just think he should touch up his boxing and we'll see Nog still do some great things to come. He's only 33 but those wars take a toll but he's still got it offensively and he's still in great shape, just needs to touch up that defense! Anyways thats my opinion.
Thoughts?
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Post #1 2/26/10 11:58:55AM
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HATE ON, HATERS!
Career record: 679-341
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Location: Fort Wayne, IN
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Posted by NatedawgThaM
I don't think he's done because he was taking it to Cain on the feet
Maybe I need to watch the fight again, but I don't remember him "taking it to Cain" at all. If memory serves me correctly, and it may not, I remember Cain being the one that was taking it to Nog.
Last edited 2/26/10 12:21PM by emfleek
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2 total post edits
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Post #2 2/26/10 12:00:59PM
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NatedawgThaM
MMA Sensei
Career record: 343-224
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: New Providence, Pa
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Taking it too him doesn't neccessarly mean Nog was winning, but he wasn't losing badly either. I think nog took it to Cain like Kos took it to Alves. It might have been a losing effort, but it will still competitive and Nog gave what he got, he just got caught being sloppy.
EDIT- it was very competitive and close IMO. I think if Nog's chin held up this would have been an all time classic like Randy/Nog. but everyones entitled to their opinion.
Last edited 2/26/10 12:22PM by Natedawgtham
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Post #3 2/26/10 12:20:07PM
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postman
Heavyweight Champ
Career record: 564-321
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My advice for Big Nog would be do what you do get it to the floor and finish the fight.
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Post #4 2/26/10 12:40:15PM
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DosBox
MMA Regular
Career record: 455-250
Season: 28-13 (#1124)
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Posted by NatedawgThaM
Taking it too him doesn't neccessarly mean Nog was winning, but he wasn't losing badly either. I think nog took it to Cain like Kos took it to Alves. It might have been a losing effort, but it will still competitive and Nog gave what he got, he just got caught being sloppy.
EDIT- it was very competitive and close IMO. I think if Nog's chin held up this would have been an all time classic like Randy/Nog. but everyones entitled to their opinion.
According to the stats, Nog was being out-landed in every aspect of the fight.
Nog-Cain fight stats
Do I think that if Nog uses head movement/footwork that I think he will be better? Of course, but honestly that is probably more easier said than done.
Habit is very hard to break. You could that case for any fighter in the world (If Cro Cop touched up on his BJJ he would submit people... etc..)
I would agree that Nog took it to Cain like Kos took it to Alves, and if the fight would have played out like it was on the fight then Cain would have won a 30-27 Decision.
Alves-Kos Stats
Granted that Koscheck was putting up a fight, but it was clear who was winning the exchanges. Same in the Velasquez/Nogueira fight if it would have gone longer (that is if you consider the first 2 minutes to be any indication - which isnt always the case).
I think the biggest detriment to Nog in his fight with Cain is the lack of speed compared to Cain. Cain fired of first, and fired off the fastest, and fired off in volume, Nog would not have benefited getting into a firefight with Cain because Cain fired off his punches first.
Nogueira just touching up on his boxing defence is an ideal solution, but if he hasnt really learned to apply more fine tuning in his boxing defence after 40+ fights, I do not know if it would ever happen, considering that he appears to be a bit slower (in terms of speed/agility/etc) than in his past fights.
Can it theoretically be cured? Sure.
Will it be cured? Even if he touches up on it? I think he would by default always touch up on his boxing defense in training considering his training partners Anderson Silva and his brother.
I just do not think it will be cured in application to practice (practice as in using it effectively in a fight).
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Post #5 2/26/10 1:10:39PM
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Giant_Ochai
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Brain damage can't be cured. Nog's reflexes are nonexistent compared to the Nog of PRIDE. His chin is gone too. Sorry pal, Nog's a shot fighter.
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Post #6 2/26/10 1:13:06PM
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Kitten Mittens
Career record: 747-402
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Posted by NatedawgThaM
Taking it too him doesn't neccessarly mean Nog was winning...
Actually, that's exactly what it's supposed to mean. Unless you were implying he was taking something other than an ass kicking to him...perhaps he was taking his chin on a silver platter to him? 
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Post #7 2/26/10 1:42:37PM
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NatedawgThaM
MMA Sensei
Career record: 343-224
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: New Providence, Pa
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 Were getting off topic. I don't know why people got to pick little things off and prove them wrong just because it gives them some sick satisfaction to prove me wrong and they just get away from the whole point of the thread. You guys were acting like it was totally one sided, or a beatdown. Nog was landing too and was always coming forward. It's not like Cain had him against the cage and was just pounding on him the whole time like alot of you are trying to make it seem like. Yeah Cain won exchanges but Nog still made it competitive.
^ Grappler that's the whole fn point of this topic, Nog just walking in and blocking punches with his chin and it taking a toll now on his career. And how Nog could maybe do better if he touched up his defense.
It doesn't matter who was ****** winning, Nog lost god damn you guys are acting like I'm trying to say different. I'm just saying their's room for improvement.
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Post #8 2/26/10 1:57:06PM
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HATE ON, HATERS!
Career record: 679-341
Season: 37-13 (#387)
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
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Posted by NatedawgThaM
Were getting off topic. I don't know why people got to pick little things off and prove them wrong just because it gives them some sick satisfaction to prove me wrong and they just get away from the whole point of the thread. You guys were acting like it was totally one sided, or a beatdown. Nog was landing too and was always coming forward. It's not like Cain had him against the cage and was just pounding on him the whole time like alot of you are trying to make it seem like. Yeah Cain won exchanges but Nog still made it competitive.
^ Grappler that's the whole fn point of this topic, Nog just walking in and blocking punches with his chin and it taking a toll now on his career. And how Nog could maybe do better if he touched up his defense.
It doesn't matter who was ****** winning, Nog lost god damn you guys are acting like I'm trying to say different. I'm just saying their's room for improvement.
You made a statement and people are offering differing opinions. If you can't accept that without flipping your lid, I'd suggest doing something else with your time.
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Post #9 2/26/10 2:02:55PM
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NatedawgThaM
MMA Sensei
Career record: 343-224
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That was one stupid little sentence that had nothing to do with the whole point of the thread. I already replied to you and told you everybodys entitled to their opinion. Nobodys even replying about the thread purpose, just at you picking at my one little sentence that you put out there.
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Post #10 2/26/10 2:07:22PM
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HATE ON, HATERS!
Career record: 679-341
Season: 37-13 (#387)
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
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Posted by NatedawgThaM
That was one stupid little sentence that had nothing to do with the whole point of the thread. I already replied to you and told you everybodys entitled to their opinion. Nobodys even replying about the thread purpose, just at you picking at my one little sentence that you put out there.
If it had nothing to do with the thread or topic at hand, remove it. Once you do that, I'll remove the posts that seem to be offending you.
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Post #11 2/26/10 2:20:57PM
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seanfu
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nog is done at the top levels. He's been badly hurt or losing in all his UFC appearances except 1. Herring basically knocked him out. Tim rocked him several times, Mir ktfo'd him, Randy is old finally, and Valasquez dominated and ended him.
Nog's throws jabs and leaves his chin open. Safe to say his standup is no longer imposing on anyone. His ground is really unmatched and his chin should be better on the ground. But his wrestling is not impressive. Nog fails.
Not "mexican boxer" syndrome, "Forrest Griffin, only worse", syndrome.
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Post #12 2/26/10 2:44:46PM
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chickmagnet
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Nogs had a very long career, hes been the champ, of both Pride and the UFC, hes been the only man to do that. However, your brain can only take so much punishment. He has taken plenty of hits in his career and its caught up to him. Im afraid that Nog wont be the same fighter he was in Pride. The problem wasnt his technique, it wasnt his strategy, its the fact that fighting has aged him drastically. Nog doesnt look like a man in his mid 30s, he looks ten years older.
With fighting, you can only take so much. This was simply a changing of the guard. Cain is a young, tough up and coming fighter and this was his breakthrough fight.
This reminds me alot of when Rashad beat Chuck Liddell. When you have been hit many times you lose a sense of distance and range, the same scenario happened with Chuck.
Im a huge fan of Nog and I think he has some great fights left in him, but Im not sure if he will be able to compete at the highest level again.
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Post #13 2/26/10 3:10:39PM
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DosBox
MMA Regular
Career record: 455-250
Season: 28-13 (#1124)
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Posted by NatedawgThaM
Nobodys even replying about the thread purpose, just at you picking at my one little sentence that you put out there.
I thought I at least touched up on the purpose in my initial post, but I will definitely try to be more thorough in this post.
I believe you are arguing that Nogueira blocks punches with his face, and that if he touches up on his boxing defense, he will cure himself from this "mexican boxer syndrome".
My argument is, couldnt you say that about every fighter though? For example, if Kongo just touches up on his ground defense he would not get destroyed when his back touches the mat? Or, if I simply just worked on my kickboxing, BJJ, wrestling techniques... wouldnt I be able to be better? Surely, but I would assume that there would be a limit to what I could achieve (which is why some people who train, touch up, practice BJJ people defeat other people who train, touch up, and practice BJJ all day long).
I think you are making a theoretical argument in Nogueira's case - and not a practical one.
Do we know that Nogueira can just apply better technical defensive boxing into his standup?
If Nogueira has been training standup with Anderson Silva, his brother, Dos Santos, and other trainers - fighters over the years... wouldn't you think that he has been taught on how to apply boxing defense in his fights? And if he is not able to really apply what he is taught, then can his "mexican boxer syndrome" really be cured? Even though he has not shown much in the way of head movement, etc... does this mean that by just touching up on this attribute that he would be able to effectively apply this into his fights?
Im not trying to bust you at all, I am just trying to understand your argument a little better, which is why I usually have to breakdown your argument in little sentences at a time.
Another question on what you said
I definitely don't think he's done, I just think he should touch up his boxing and we'll see Nog still do some great things to come.
-If he is unable to touch up on his boxing do you think Nog would be considered "done"?
- At this point in time, since he did not use his boxing defense well against Cain, do you consider him "done"? And that he will no longer be done so long as he touches up on his boxing defense?
I think this argument is based on whether or not one believes that Nogueira will be able to just touch up on his boxing defense and apply it to a fight.
And if one believes that he will be able to touch up on his boxing defense that he will reach the top, and if one believes that he will not be able to have the capabilities to effectively use this in a fight... then they come to the conclusion that Nogueira has already peaked as a fighter.
Im sure most of the people on here (whichever side they be on) would have to come to the conclusion where they would have to agree to disagree.
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Post #14 2/26/10 3:41:36PM
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AnDeRsonDaSiLvA
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Nog did not always block punches with his chin . He used to slip punches very effectively . See the kharitonov fight , who at the time was a better striker then anyone hes faced in the ufc so far . As much as it pains me to admit this , nog does not have the same speed , reflexes or chin . Substitute Nog from today in the first fedor fight and he would of been out cold within a couple minutes , all the punishment has taken a major toll on him.
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Post #15 2/26/10 4:13:12PM
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