Best P4P American Non-UFC/WEC fighter |
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codyq
BANNED
Career record: 40-30
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: Pismo Beach california
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I Picked Jake Shields
Champion in Both the MW and WW divisions. Also Ranked IN BOOTH divisions. Is on a 13 fight win-streak
Holds wins over
-Yushin Okami
-Carlos Condit
-Paul Daley
-Jason Miller
-Robbie Lawler
-Nick Thompson
Has a bout coming in April up against the #2 ranked MW in the world. If he gets a win over hendo, sky's the limit.
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Post #1 2/11/10 6:01:22PM
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SpiderSilva
dancing on all the haters 11-0
Career record: 640-417
Season: 29-20 (#1007)
Location: Denver, Colorado Birthplace of the UFC
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when Hendo beats Sheilds will you consider him #1? Cause Hendos win list is better than that
Carlos Newton
Big Nog
Gilbert Yvel
Babalu
Renzo Gracie
Murilo Rua
Akihiro Gono
Murilo Bustamante
Kazuo Misaki
Vitor Belfort
Wanderlei Silva
^ all non UFC wins
Rich Franklin
and I will throw Bisping in there cause it was a top 5 greatest KO of all time
On a side note I would like to see Shields in the UFC back at 170
Last edited 2/11/10 6:20PM by spidersilva
Edit note/reason: n/a
2 total post edits
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Post #2 2/11/10 6:19:08PM
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codyq
BANNED
Career record: 40-30
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: Pismo Beach california
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Carlos Newton Big Nog Gilbert Yvel Babalu Renzo Gracie Murilo Rua Akihiro Gono Murilo Bustamante Kazuo Misaki Vitor Belfort Wanderlei Silva ^ all non UFC wins Rich Franklin and I will throw Bisping in there cause it was a top 5 greatest KO of all time
Carlos Newton???? Kidding Right?
Gono????
Bisping??? NO
Franklin??? was a DRAW IMO, still though it was a SPLIT victory
Misaki (Lost to Misaki as well)
NOG (lost to NOG as Well)
Dan's longest win streak came in 2000 where he was 9-0
Longest win streak since has been in 2006 where he had 4 wins in a row
Dan is number 2 on my list.
I just think Shields has been MORE dominant than Hendo.
Hendo is a natural 185'r and shields is a natural 170 lb'r
They both have made a pretty good mark in the game. I just think Shields has Since not been phased. If dan wins of course my pick will be different. Don't be so quick to count out shields though. Hendo has been submitted a few times before. NOW Hendo is facing a guy that can submit you, but also shields can wrestle too. Has dan ever faced a wrestler that is a black belt in BJJ?? I think Sobral but Hendo ONLY won in a split decision in that fight (hendo was ALSO 29 years at the time as well). I got Shields via Sub come April
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Post #3 2/11/10 6:44:18PM
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karn501
In Full Mount
Career record: 97-69
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: webbers falls oklahoma
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heeeeeeeeennnnnnnddddddddooooooooooo can't see shields subing him when it took big nog two fights to do it
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Post #4 2/11/10 6:51:41PM
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SpiderSilva
dancing on all the haters 11-0
Career record: 640-417
Season: 29-20 (#1007)
Location: Denver, Colorado Birthplace of the UFC
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if you want to judge those fights like that
-Yushin Okami - Win by DEC
-Carlos Condit- Win by DEC
-Paul Daley- Fighter with almost no ground game(almost all losses are by sub)
-Jason Miller-Win by DEC
-Robbie Lawler-fighter with almost no ground game(almost all losses are by sub)
-Nick Thompson-where has he been as of late?
Really??? if you wanted to go there not 1 of those fighters were a top 10 fighter when he fought them
anyway I like Sheilds myself but Hendo is gonna open a can
if Sheilds wants to fight the best at "170" then maybe he should sign with the UFC hell even 80% of the top MWs are in the UFC
Last edited 2/11/10 7:51PM by spidersilva
Edit note/reason: n/a
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Post #5 2/11/10 7:49:49PM
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codyq
BANNED
Career record: 40-30
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: Pismo Beach california
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we can bicker about who was ranked when and what not and who had MORE notable wins, guess we will have our answer in April wont we 
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Post #6 2/11/10 8:31:55PM
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warglory
Heavyweight Champ
Career record: 448-302
Season: 21-20 (#2163)
Location: Portland, ME
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I don't see how it can be debated that Jake Shields is the most dominant of this list. He has had some close calls and some boring victories, but the man has the strategy to win and has beaten some very tough guys. Hendo is merely riding his win against Bisping still, but he shouldn't be a p4p fav on this list.
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Post #7 2/11/10 9:11:27PM
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warglory
Heavyweight Champ
Career record: 448-302
Season: 21-20 (#2163)
Location: Portland, ME
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Posted by SpiderSilva
when Hendo beats Sheilds will you consider him #1? Cause Hendos win list is better than that
Carlos Newton
Big Nog
Gilbert Yvel
Babalu
Renzo Gracie
Murilo Rua
Akihiro Gono
Murilo Bustamante
Kazuo Misaki
Vitor Belfort
Wanderlei Silva
^ all non UFC wins
Rich Franklin
and I will throw Bisping in there cause it was a top 5 greatest KO of all time
On a side note I would like to see Shields in the UFC back at 170
You can't count older wins when factoring a p4p list. If this were true, Royce Gracie and Mark Kerr would be up there. Shields has been undefeated since 2005 against mostly credible opponents. Hendo has not.
Last edited 2/11/10 9:16PM by warglory
Edit note/reason: n/a
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Post #8 2/11/10 9:15:10PM
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SpiderSilva
dancing on all the haters 11-0
Career record: 640-417
Season: 29-20 (#1007)
Location: Denver, Colorado Birthplace of the UFC
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Well I was just going along with how he was trying to make his point.hendo has fought better comp in that time span and who are you to say what I can't do?
Last edited 2/11/10 9:35PM by spidersilva
Edit note/reason: n/a
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Post #9 2/11/10 9:28:59PM
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Pookie
Heavyweight Champ
Career record: 742-383
Season: 36-14 (#183)
Location: NorCal
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Its all about how you define p4p.
Some people like to use hard facts such as wins, streaks, and other such details that can be obviously seen by all to prove how dominant that fighter is.
Others like to dabble in the abstract alleys of their minds and conceptualize the fighters skillset, the expertise of the styles composing that skillset and theorize over how Dominant that fighter is.
Both in the end are just as subjective, even though one is based in facts and the other is based in theory.
My mind is definitely the latter, and after the mulling out process is complete Dan Henderson is by far and large the #1 p4p Non UFC-fighter.
At a natural weight of under 205 the guy's technique is good enough to trump Rampages brute strength in an area Rampage has made the majority of his highlight reels in(clinch grappling).
His chin is damn near uncrackable. And he knows it, which allows him to use his Apache Warchief style of blunt-trauma striking.
On the ground the guy not only is hard to get off of you, but he also grounds and pounds with the best of the sport. A combination you rarely see in MMA.
That and the only people who have subbed him have had a weight advantage and a ridiculously high level of bjj black belt.
In the 3 Areas of the fight game(On the feet, in the clinch, on the ground) he can battle anybody at their strength who is his natural size and fight competitively, 95% of the time winning
Shields the other hand isnt nearly as well rounded -
His top game and transitioning skills on the ground are top notch, though he hasnt shown strong enough takedowns to force the fight there against good sprawls.
His submissions are a threat, but on his back hes nothing more than youd expect from anyone with a Black Belt in BJJ.
He has mediocre defense on the feet, and complements it nicely with spastic hands. Tito Ortiz has a more fluid stand-up game, and a better chin for that matter.
And as far as shields clinch game i cant really comment, he hasnt had to show that facet of his game in nearly 4 years since in that time he has fought nothing but one-dimensional fighters or fighters he should beat stylistically(Condit, Okami). Though Okami is debateable over whether or not he won.
In the 3 areas of the fight game: He is a master at one, mediocre at one, and completely unknown in the last.
He can beat damn near anyone in the world if they try to roll with him, Ill give him that. Id pick him over Jacare even. But other than that realm, i dont see him having p4p skills anywhere else.
Oh, and a FYI alert for those who dont know, Dan Henderson had Pneumonia a week before the fight with Franklin. Right around the time most fighters start to hit their peak.
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Post #10 2/11/10 9:49:30PM
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codyq
BANNED
Career record: 40-30
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: Pismo Beach california
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Well I was just going along with how he was trying to make his point.hendo has fought better comp in that time span and who are you to say what I can't do?
Jake shields has not lost a fight since 2004.
Dan has lost 4 fights since 2004
I dont care if dan has beat more notable fighters ALL TIME.
Since 04' dan has beat a head start towards the end of his career Wandi, who didnt look good in that fight, AND then he beat franklin in a split decision.
Since 04 Shields has beat
Yushin okami
Robbie Lawler
Jason Miller
Carlos Condit
Nick Thompson
Paul Daley
Shields is on a 13 fight win streak.
There are not many fighters right now who are on fight streaks like that that I can think of........
Gegard (15)
Hector Lombard 17 fight win streak
Fedor (31)
Lyoto Machida (16)
Renan Barao (18)
Mamed Khalidov (18)
1 of the 4 of jake shields career losses also in the past was to a guy named Phillip Miller who retired @ 16-0 wih a 2-0 record in the UFC
Just sayin
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Post #11 2/11/10 10:04:40PM
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postman
Heavyweight Champ
Career record: 564-321
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: Delmont ,Pa
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Shields since 07
Win Jason Miller Decision (Unanimous)
Win Robbie Lawler Submission (Guillotine Choke)
Win Paul Daley Submission (Armbar)
Win Nick Thompson Submission (Guillotine Choke)
Win Mike Pyle Submission (Rear-Naked Choke)
Win Renato Verissimo TKO (Punches and Elbows)
Win Ido Pariente Submission (Rear Naked Choke)
Win Ray Steinbeiss Submission (Guillotine Choke)
Who on that list would beat Dan Henderson?
Hendo since 07
Win Michael Bisping KO (Punch)
Win Rich Franklin Decision (Split)
Win Rousimar Palhares Decision (Unanimous)
Loss Anderson Silva Submission (Rear-Naked Choke)
Loss Quinton Jackson Decision (Unanimous)
Win Wanderlei Silva KO (Punches)
I think the question here would be who could jake beat on this list?
I also would like to add I thought Hendo won the Rampage fight.
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Post #12 2/11/10 11:01:00PM
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sbulldavid
MMA Sensei
Career record: 569-323
Season: 39-11 (#69)
Location:
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Just because you get ranked top ten doesn't make you top ten. Jake Shields could be a top ten guy , I don't doubt , but he's never fought a top five guy and he's won fights that were never in serious doubt . If he defeats Henderson he deserves to talk the talk , we'll see .
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Post #13 2/12/10 1:09:08AM
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codyq
BANNED
Career record: 40-30
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: Pismo Beach california
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I think the question here would be who could jake beat on this list? I also would like to add I thought Hendo won the Rampage fight.
All we are doin is speaking facts, not who would do this who would do that.
Jake has not beeen tested since 2004 when he was 25 years of age. Call the jason miller fight a close call but it was a 1 sided victory, "almost" doesn't count, rampage STILL beat hendo in that fight. NO excuses.
Like I said, lets see what happens in April before we go any further.
If I had to put my money on this fight i'd be putting it on Hendo, but I will never count Shields out.
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Post #14 2/12/10 1:20:20AM
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Pookie
Heavyweight Champ
Career record: 742-383
Season: 36-14 (#183)
Location: NorCal
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Posted by codyq
All we are doin is speaking facts, not who would do this who would do that.
Jake has not beeen tested since 2004 when he was 25 years of age. Call the jason miller fight a close call but it was a 1 sided victory, "almost" doesn't count, rampage STILL beat hendo in that fight. NO excuses.
You contradict yourself with the statement earlier that a Split decision victory means less than a normal victory, and yet now you say NO excuses, Rampage STILL beat hendo.
And in a debate regarding the term p4p only half the people involved are speaking facts, the other half are expressing how they feel a p4p ranking should be based on, which is something entirely different. Intuitively understood merit that isnt based on cold rigid facts, but rather Analysis and conceptualism.
In general there are 2 types of way people percieve events. Spotting out the facts and details (which is normally very black and white), and those that spot out patterns (which is very much the gray area and interperative). If you cant have a topic discussion with people who think differently then you, without trying to change the way their discussing the topic, then maybe you need to re-evaluate the way you interact with people.
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Post #15 2/12/10 1:57:00AM
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