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Doc Hamilton Changes His Mind On Machida/Shogun Decision

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EvenFlow

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It turns out Hamilton believes he may have judged incorrectly after re-watching the fight.




When UFC light heavyweight champion Lyoto Machida got his hand raised on Oct. 24 after his title defense against Mauricio “Shogun” Rua, in a fight where most polls showed about 80 percent of the public believed the title should have changed hands, it set off a series of three straight major-show UFC main events in which judging became a hotly debated issue.

But some of the most vehement response has come from a surprising source: the judges themselves, some of whom feel handcuffed and frustrated with the system in place.

The most vocal is veteran official Nelson “Doc” Hamilton. Hamilton was one of the three judges who controversially scored that fight 48-47 in favor of Machida. Yet after watching tape of the fight, Hamilton now believes Rua was the winner.


Doc stated...

“There was a round in that fight [Round 4] where my line of sight while they were standing was blocked,” said Hamilton, who feels TV monitors for judges would solve the problem. “Because of the angle where most of the round was fought, I couldn’t see the punches and whether they were landing. If the fight had been on the ground, I could look at the big screens, but this was a fight where the blows were coming one at a time and you don’t want to look away and miss an important blow.”





When Hamilton saw the fight again, he noted that viewers saw Round 4 from a completely different perspective that he did. He also added that the live commentary may have swayed viewers into thinking Rua won decisively. So, based on what he couldn’t see from his cageside vantage point, he believes Rua won the round.

Keith Kizer, the executive director of the Nevada Athletic Commission, said usage of monitors at the judging stations is worth looking into, but he also noted its flaws. He said he’s noticed that when he has watched fights on monitors while at ringside, sometimes he’s still looking at the monitor when the fight is front in front of him.


Keith Kizer had this to say...

“The reason we have judges in three different positions is to get three different vantage points,” said Kizer. “If all three judges are watching a monitor, they are all getting the same vantage point – the television camera angle.”







EDIT: read more of the article at... Link

Last edited 12/27/09 3:19AM server time by EvenFlow
Edit note/reason: n/a

Post #1   12/27/09 3:17:41AM   

bjj1605

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There are so many problems with the judging in MMA that I don't even know where they should begin. I think that monitors for judges is a good idea, it will help them get a better view of grappling and cage work. To often the fighter on top is given the nod even when he is clearly loosing the grappling. Like 'Doc' says though judges also need to learn to use the monitors only at select times, ie. when it gives you a better view.

The 10-9 round system is flawed as well. Personally I like the Japanese system of scoring the fight as a whole. The problem is that this can be kind of subjective and its hard to lay out guidelines for it. My idea is a 20 point round system. The round winner gets 20 points. If it is a very close round the round loser gets 19. If it is a normally dominated round (this would be the norm as about 80% of rounds have a clear winner) then the loser gets 18. If it is an especially dominate round (though not so dominant as a current 10-8 requires) then the loser gets 17. If it is a blow out destruction then the loser gets 16. This solves a lot of the problems with scoring by round because the judges have more room to play with. You can award fighters for dominating rather than trying to lay and pray.

If one fighter barely manages to win the first two rounds then they would be 20-19 rounds. If his opponent then dominates the final round, say 20-17, then he can win the fight 58-57. An example of this might be BJ Penn vs GSP the first time. With BJ winning the first round 20-17 and George winning the second two 20-19 BJ would still get the decision.

I also think judges in general need to be better educated in Jiu Jitsu or a comparable art such as Judo or Sambo. I would even go as far as to say they need to be belted in one form of grappling (ie. blue belt in BJJ).

Post #2   12/27/09 3:43:21AM   

bojangalz

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bjj-

The scoring system you described is the 10-point must system, but you just added more numbers. Judges can already score fights exactly how you described so moving to 20 points would do nothing but confuse an already absent-minded crowd of judges.

The 10-point must system CAN work if it's properly employed. The problem is to properly use the system we must first have compitant judges. That requires an education in ALL facets of MMA. This is a goal that is FAR from reached at this point.

Beyond that we need better scoring definitions in the unified rules. Even judges who are educated in MMA misinturpret the very gray unified scoring rules.

After we've accomplished both of the above then judges will hopefully do a better job of recognizing 10-10 rounds and 10-8 rounds. Once that all falls into place than I think more people will come to realizt that the 10-point must system is the most effective way to score combat sports including MMA.

The problem isn't the scoring system, lack of well defined rules and lack of educated observers for judging base on said rules.

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Post #3   12/27/09 4:55:17AM   

Aether

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this is EXACTLY why I've always said that judges should have monitors with different camera angles to watch, instead of being sat near the ring where they get only 1 vantage point. I've heard judges say "oh we may see things the fans don't at home because we're there" bs. We're far more likely to see what happened with the best possible camera angle and instant replays.

I've always said this is one of the things that needs to change about judging. Give the judges a few monitors with various camera angles, segregate them from the crowd and each other, and define the relative value of judging criteria. These simple changes would make a massive difference in consistency of judging.

Post #4   12/27/09 5:08:04AM   

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Posted by bojangalz

The problem isn't the scoring system, lack of well defined rules and lack of educated observers for judging base on said rules.



dead on. i have been saying this for a while because it is the root of all the judging problems we have been experiencing.

Post #5   12/27/09 10:51:21AM   

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i believe the fight should be scored as a whole and not by rounds. the rounds are there to give the fighters a rest every 5 minutes. look at the whole body of work and decide who the winner of the fight is. i also believe that damage to your opponent should be more heavily weighed into the equation. i have no problem with giving judges access to monitors. i think that takedowns should get less crdit unless the lead to damage on the ground or submission attemps. more credit should be given to the guy who is trying to finish the fight by ko or submission instead of "octagon control". many fights are boring because a fighter goes for the takedown and controls his opponent on the ground but does little damage. many times the fight will be stood up but there is little consistancy in the procedure of standing the fight up or breaking the clinch. to summerize i believe:
1. judge the fight as a whole
2. value damage
3.

Post #6   12/27/09 11:03:28AM   

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I agree that the criteria need to be changed. Effective Striking, Grappling, Aggression, and Octagon Control doesn't cut it. They need to add damage and who came closest to finishing the fight.

Post #7   12/27/09 12:51:12PM   

bjj1605

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Posted by bojangalz

bjj-

The scoring system you described is the 10-point must system, but you just added more numbers. Judges can already score fights exactly how you described so moving to 20 points would do nothing but confuse an already absent-minded crowd of judges.

The 10-point must system CAN work if it's properly employed. The problem is to properly use the system we must first have compitant judges. That requires an education in ALL facets of MMA. This is a goal that is FAR from reached at this point.

Beyond that we need better scoring definitions in the unified rules. Even judges who are educated in MMA misinturpret the very gray unified scoring rules.

After we've accomplished both of the above then judges will hopefully do a better job of recognizing 10-10 rounds and 10-8 rounds. Once that all falls into place than I think more people will come to realizt that the 10-point must system is the most effective way to score combat sports including MMA.

The problem isn't the scoring system, lack of well defined rules and lack of educated observers for judging base on said rules.



Well like I said I don't think the scoring system is the biggest problem. Lack of education in grappling and poor scoring criteria are major flaws. But I don't like the 10 point system because MMA doesn't have enough rounds. It works in boxing when you're fighting between 10-15 rounds but not in MMA when you're fighting 3. The way to solve that problem is to add more points. A 20 point round system gives judges more room to play with. 10-9 rounds are currently the norm. 20-18 rounds would be the norm in my system. Less dominant rounds would get 20-19 and more dominant would get 20-17. The BJ Penn GSP first fight is an example of why this would work.

Take a hypothetical future example. Rashad Evans vs Thiago Silva at UFC 108. Say Rashad takes Thiago down repeatedly overt he course of the first two rounds. There are few exchanges on the feet and rashad isn't able to pass guard or land any effective shots from the top. At the start of the 3rd round Thiago catches Rashad with a big punch and drops him. He's all over him but unable to finish. Late in the round Rashad secures another takedown and the fight ends.

Under the current system you'd score the fight 29-28 for Rashad. Even if you give Thiago a 10-8 round it would be 28-28. 10-8 rounds are rare and even more so if the judges know it will make the end result a draw.

Under my system Rashad would likely only earn 20-19 rounds for the first to stanzas and Thiago should get a 20-17 for the last round. This makes the fight a 58-57 decision for Thiago. He did far more damage and came closer to finishing the fight so I think thats the right call.

(PS thats not how I think the fight will play out. Its just an example.)

Post #8   12/27/09 1:02:51PM   

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i always thought that they should have a booth that over-sees the judges..who score their own cards..while the judges are scoring..basically where they can over-turn anything the refs and judges do when their has been a mistake made,as in where the ref tries to deduct a point where he thought the knee landed the head,but the over-see committee informs the ref that it was a good blow..something i always that they should have,an over-site committee...

Last edited 12/27/09 1:59PM server time by rhythmandstyle
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Post #9   12/27/09 1:46:03PM   

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Glad to see someone admit a mistake. Shogun won, now we have confimation.

Post #10   12/27/09 2:45:46PM   

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The judges sit in the same places all the time and to say that now makes me think that every decision may have been compromised so now does this mean maybe chuck didnt beat wandy of randy didnt win against Vera? man maybe i need a new vantage point too like one of strikeforce...

Last edited 12/27/09 2:52PM server time by submissionartist1
Edit note/reason: the criteria is an outline not the whole story

Post #11   12/27/09 2:50:15PM   

WheelchairBandit

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so now does this mean maybe chuck didnt beat wandy


Dude.......

Brian.

Post #12   12/27/09 3:08:40PM   

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Judging and officiating is flawed in every sport. Some people like myself believe this is so because of Vegas and sports gambling in general.

Here's a little advice for everyone out there that I have learned over the years.... "just accept that the system is flawed and nothing can be done to COMPLETELY fix it. Move on !

Post #13   12/27/09 3:54:08PM   

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Posted by WheelchairBandit


so now does this mean maybe chuck didnt beat wandy


Dude.......

Brian.




Ha ha perfect response..........


seriously dude..........

Post #14   12/27/09 4:43:13PM   

prozacnation1978

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thanks doc know i wonder how many more fights the doc made mistakes in

Post #15   12/27/09 8:19:09PM   
 
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