Shogun v. Machida: THE thread |
| Posted By |
Message |
JackHammerXXX
MMA Regular
Career record: 506-339
Season: 32-18 (#1007)
Location: Omaha
|
I'd content with a draw. lol. Really.
And a no-contest? listen, I am as adament about that being bad call,and that Shogun probably deserved to win, more than Machida. But Lyoto did what he does, and besides the knees against the fence, and the accumulative kicks to the legs, Shogun didn't do anything more, than what Machida did. Lyoto evaded alot of the attacks, in my mind controlled the clinch which should've been Shogun's realm. He caught Rua with vicious knees when Mauricio came to clinch. I think toward the end of the fight, 4 and 5, Shogun turned it up, as Machida winded it down. But like I said before, first three rounds were close, and by close, everyone has an opinion and biases. 3 to 2 for either fighter would've been acceptable, and we got that, We didnt' get 4 to 1, or 5-0 , and the way judges have been, that would be the point of criticism, the fact that all the judges' agreed on the number of rounds to each fighter is the shocking part.
Oh, and your boy Cecil was one of them. Go figure
|
|
Post #31 10/25/09 5:37:28PM
|
|
|
kingkicker
MMA Regular
Career record: 642-439
Season: 29-21 (#1671)
Location: Timmins, Ontairo, Ca.
|
I agree, i watched it again without the sound and without joe rogan's commentary and it was a totally different fight ,. it's funny how someone commenting can change your mind, i was pissed at first but now i give to lyoto
|
|
Post #32 10/25/09 5:53:33PM
|
Advertisement |
|
Aether
Heavyweight Champ
Career record: 650-352
Season: 39-11 (#78)
Location: Canada
|
Sorry but I don't buy the "commentating bias" or the idea that people expected machida to win so much that it caused shogun to look better than he was.
There are some pretty clear-cut statistics round-by-round available for everyone to see. It isn't a coincidence that 90% of fans, fighters who fought on the card, 100% of play-by-plays on the internet, and a statistical analysis of the fight ALL support the exact same conclusion. Bias can sway a certain number of people, but for this to be anything other than the truth would require some serious brainwashing on a massive scale.
What are the UFC's judging criteria? Effective striking, grappling, aggression, and octagon control.
I don't think anyone can possibly argue that Shogun didn't clearly win the aggression and control battles, Lyoto's style is the exact opposite of aggressive. Against most fighters it's fine because it causes him to win the striking so dominantly that aggression on his opponents' part only gets them hurt. There was no grappling other than a couple of brief clinches in which shogun landed more knees.
The only aspect of judging that Lyoto could even be debated to have won would be striking, which the numbers simply don't support. The key word though in that particular judging criteria is "EFFECTIVE" even if they landed an equal amount of shots, which they didn't, Shogun's striking was CLEARLY the more effective. His shots were harder, landed more frequently, and did considerably more damage.
I just don't see how anyone could possibly give this fight to Machida. Watch the fight in slow motion, count the strikes for yourself, look at the effectiveness of them, look at the statistics, look at who was pushing and attacking and who was backing away, look at who held the center of the octagon more and who stalked his opponent into corners in order to launch an offensive.
I think you'll find that the answer to all of these questions is Shogun.
|
|
Post #33 10/25/09 6:02:12PM
|
JackHammerXXX
MMA Regular
Career record: 506-339
Season: 32-18 (#1007)
Location: Omaha
|
I agree that Shogun was more aggressive, controlled the center of the octagon, threw more, landed more, but why is it that everyone will allow Lyoto to do what he did in every fight, and not allow the same now? Why, because Rua didn't fight him the same way. He didn't attack attack attack to the point where he gets caught and it's another example of the invincibility of the Dragon.
Stats won't lie, you right. Watching the fight over, you can't say it wasn't close. And everytime they clinched, Lyoto shrugged him off, the only time Shogun seemed to have control was when they were up on the fence and he had his whole body pressed against him. There were countless times where they each threw one, or two punch/kicks and out. Machida evaded alot but also, Shogun found the range and way to catch Lyoto when he tried to evade,i.e. those great sweeping leg kicks, and pressing kicks to the body.
Are people mad that Shogun won the whole entire fight, every round? Or are they mad that Machida didn't win decisively? Cuz every round aside from the 4th, and 5th really, were dead even. And I give Machida the edge because did what he does. Evades, precisely strikes. and controls the pace. Shogun advanced throughout the entire fight. but never had Machida in danger. Lyoto's knees to the midsection and power in the clinch eliminates my feelings that Rua controlled that area. Only on the fence did Shogun have the edge.
I can't stress enough that Machida did what he does, and now it seems like people have a problem, all over again, with his style.
Neither fighter gave enough evidence to be a consensus winner. You wanna throw stats, well they don't lie. But that's easy to make a judgment based on numbers, after the fact, you already watched the fight, and made an assessment based on that. The numbers clearly tell a different story. But this is not as atrocious as it first seemed, and everyone is making it out to be.
|
|
Post #34 10/25/09 6:14:41PM
|
RyanC
MMA Sensei
Career record: 404-256
Season: 36-13 (#554)
Location: Hastings, MN
|
Posted by kingkicker
I agree, i watched it again without the sound and without joe rogan's commentary and it was a totally different fight ,. it's funny how someone commenting can change your mind, i was pissed at first but now i give to lyoto
Are you kidding? Joe Rogan's commentary made you think Shogun won and without the sound Machida won the fight?
RIDICULOUS. It was the same fight both times you watched it.
|
|
Post #35 10/25/09 6:17:32PM
|
MODesty
Career record: 723-367
Season: 38-12 (#5)
Location: Oklahoma
|
Posted by RyanC
Posted by kingkicker
I agree, i watched it again without the sound and without joe rogan's commentary and it was a totally different fight ,. it's funny how someone commenting can change your mind, i was pissed at first but now i give to lyoto
Are you kidding? Joe Rogan's commentary made you think Shogun won and without the sound Machida won the fight?
RIDICULOUS. It was the same fight both times you watched it.
For one comentary can affect people's out look on the fight.
For two I'm going to tell everyone to chill out. Some people are acting like this was just so one sided that there is no way in hell Machida could have won and that's just not the case. I have it rounds 1 and 2 for Machida and round 4 and 5 for Shogun with the 3rd being deciding round. I gave it to Machida but could see it going to Shogun. Some people are acting like childish kids and not taking the time to look at this without a biased point of view. It was a great fight and we should be happy we get to see them fight again not complaining about some one getting robbed when it was a very close fight.
Last edited 10/25/09 7:47PM by telnights
Edit note/reason: n/a
_______________________________________
MMA Playground Mod
Telnights
MMAplayground Rules
|
|
Post #36 10/25/09 7:20:23PM
|
RyanC
MMA Sensei
Career record: 404-256
Season: 36-13 (#554)
Location: Hastings, MN
|
Posted by telnights
Posted by RyanC
Posted by kingkicker
I agree, i watched it again without the sound and without joe rogan's commentary and it was a totally different fight ,. it's funny how someone commenting can change your mind, i was pissed at first but now i give to lyoto
Are you kidding? Joe Rogan's commentary made you think Shogun won and without the sound Machida won the fight?
RIDICULOUS. It was the same fight both times you watched it.
For one comentary can affect people's out look on the fight.
For one I'm going to tell everyone to chill out. Some people are acting like this was just so one sided that there is no way in hell Machida could have one and thats just not the case. I have it rounds 1 and 2 for Machida and round 4 and 5 for Shogun with the 3rd being deciding round. I gave it to Machida but could see it going to Shogun. Some people are acting like childish kids and not taking the time to look at this without a biased point of view. It was a great fight and we should be happy we get to see them fight again not complaining about some one getting robbed when it was a very close fight.
I don't think I'm acting biased or childish. I didn't even say anything about the outcome. I just find it ridiculous that commentary/no commentary could completely change your opinion on the outcome of a fight.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful, or anything. I just found that a bit ridiculous. Maybe I should have kept it to myself.
|
|
Post #37 10/25/09 7:23:27PM
|
MODesty
Career record: 723-367
Season: 38-12 (#5)
Location: Oklahoma
|
Posted by RyanC
Posted by telnights
Posted by RyanC
Posted by kingkicker
I agree, i watched it again without the sound and without joe rogan's commentary and it was a totally different fight ,. it's funny how someone commenting can change your mind, i was pissed at first but now i give to lyoto
Are you kidding? Joe Rogan's commentary made you think Shogun won and without the sound Machida won the fight?
RIDICULOUS. It was the same fight both times you watched it.
For one comentary can affect people's out look on the fight.
For one I'm going to tell everyone to chill out. Some people are acting like this was just so one sided that there is no way in hell Machida could have one and thats just not the case. I have it rounds 1 and 2 for Machida and round 4 and 5 for Shogun with the 3rd being deciding round. I gave it to Machida but could see it going to Shogun. Some people are acting like childish kids and not taking the time to look at this without a biased point of view. It was a great fight and we should be happy we get to see them fight again not complaining about some one getting robbed when it was a very close fight.
I don't think I'm acting biased or childish. I didn't even say anything about the outcome. I just find it ridiculous that commentary/no commentary could completely change your opinion on the outcome of a fight.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful, or anything. I just found that a bit ridiculous. Maybe I should have kept it to myself.
Maybe you should have. Also its not ridiculous to think commentary can change your view of something. Its ridiculous to think that it cant.
_______________________________________
MMA Playground Mod
Telnights
MMAplayground Rules
|
|
Post #38 10/25/09 7:45:57PM
|
RyanC
MMA Sensei
Career record: 404-256
Season: 36-13 (#554)
Location: Hastings, MN
|
Posted by telnights
Posted by RyanC
Posted by telnights
Posted by RyanC
Posted by kingkicker
I agree, i watched it again without the sound and without joe rogan's commentary and it was a totally different fight ,. it's funny how someone commenting can change your mind, i was pissed at first but now i give to lyoto
Are you kidding? Joe Rogan's commentary made you think Shogun won and without the sound Machida won the fight?
RIDICULOUS. It was the same fight both times you watched it.
For one comentary can affect people's out look on the fight.
For one I'm going to tell everyone to chill out. Some people are acting like this was just so one sided that there is no way in hell Machida could have one and thats just not the case. I have it rounds 1 and 2 for Machida and round 4 and 5 for Shogun with the 3rd being deciding round. I gave it to Machida but could see it going to Shogun. Some people are acting like childish kids and not taking the time to look at this without a biased point of view. It was a great fight and we should be happy we get to see them fight again not complaining about some one getting robbed when it was a very close fight.
I don't think I'm acting biased or childish. I didn't even say anything about the outcome. I just find it ridiculous that commentary/no commentary could completely change your opinion on the outcome of a fight.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful, or anything. I just found that a bit ridiculous. Maybe I should have kept it to myself.
Maybe you should have. Also its not ridiculous to think commentary can change your view of something. Its ridiculous to think that it cant.
We are both entitled to our opinions.
|
|
Post #39 10/25/09 7:50:04PM
|
BustedKnuckle
MMA Sensei
Career record: 424-232
Season: 32-18 (#496)
Location: The Flip Side
|
I agree that this fight was extremely close. Both men should be embaressed about the performance put forth. But Rua didnt do enough to seal the deal. If you are going to beat the champion in a dec win it must be desicive. Sure he landed somthing like 45 leg kicks but they did nothing to stop Lyoto. Machida had Rua in trouble in a couple of instances but didnt capitalize. Lyoto looked lackluster as well.
|
|
Post #40 10/25/09 8:03:15PM
|
Aether
Heavyweight Champ
Career record: 650-352
Season: 39-11 (#78)
Location: Canada
|
I don't think Shogun won by a landslide by any means. The rounds were relatively close, but I think that Shogun did have a clear edge in three of those rounds, and the numbers support that. Did he dominate him in those rounds? No. Did he win them? I think it's clear that he did.
Commentating absolutely can sway people's opinion, but only to a certain degree, and only so many people. The majority of people all seem to have the same opinion. In this case, commentator bias just isn't enough to explain such an overwhelming majority.
In my mind, whether he won by a lot or a little isn't really relevant unless it was SO close as to be basically even. I think only the third round was too close to call, and as a result I gave it to the champion, because I do believe that in an even round, the champ should be given the benefit of the doubt. I saw 1-4-5 as being pretty clear cut in Shogun's favour. Even if he wasn't winning by a landslide he did enough to take those rounds. And I gave the edge to Machida in round 2. I saw 3 as being pretty even, but again, gave it to Machida because he's the champ, and he finished the round stronger, which I know plays strongly in the judge's minds.
I just don't see where the Lyoto's third round came from. I'm pretty surprised that all judges scored round 1 for Machida or that any judge scored round 5 for him.
|
|
Post #41 10/25/09 8:11:30PM
|
Boondock Saints Mod
Career record: 757-420
Season: 36-14 (#566)
Location: California
|
If everyone would stop with the hyperbole this would go a lot better.
_______________________________________
“Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie for selfish gain, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found.”
The Iron Code
P.S.- M-1 GLOBAL are DELUSIONAL HIPPYS
|
|
Post #42 10/25/09 8:14:59PM
|
Aether
Heavyweight Champ
Career record: 650-352
Season: 39-11 (#78)
Location: Canada
|
Posted by BustedKnuckle
I agree that this fight was extremely close. Both men should be embaressed about the performance put forth. But Rua didnt do enough to seal the deal. If you are going to beat the champion in a dec win it must be desicive. Sure he landed somthing like 45 leg kicks but they did nothing to stop Lyoto. Machida had Rua in trouble in a couple of instances but didnt capitalize. Lyoto looked lackluster as well.
I disagree. Strongly. I think it was a very exciting technical fight, and the kicks that were being landed were absolutely brutal. I don't think any person willing to strap on those tiny gloves and be locked in a cage for 25 minutes with another world class fighter has anything to be embarrassed about. It's not incumbent upon fighters to take unnecessary risks and risk injury in order to appease fans.
There was a lot of great, technical striking in that fight.
|
|
Post #43 10/25/09 8:16:11PM
|
FrankTheTank1181
Standup Guy
Career record: 630-359
Season: 36-12 (#177)
Location: Washington State
|
Shogun should have realized you can't leg kick your way to a championship belt, it needs to be a clear cut win. In most cases the champ gets the nod in a close fight, which this was.
|
|
Post #44 10/25/09 8:31:37PM
|
decken
MMA Regular
Career record: 399-246
Season: 19-11 (#2562)
Location: Idaho
|
I have to agree with fight metric I thought Shogun won and I even think at the end of the fight Machida thought Shogun won. Anyways here are the stats from fight metric.
Shogun threw a 149 strikes and landed 82: Landing 55%
Machida Threw: 116 strikes and landed 42: Landing 36%
Shogun landed 4 more head power shots and 46 more leg shots.
Machida landed one more head jab, 7 more power body shots, one more body jab, and one more leg jab.
Shogun was the only one who tried to take the fight to the ground.
Yes machida stopped him but stopping a take down is the same as getting out of a submission. It does not help you win the fight just helps you not lose the fight.
I dont see how you can justify giving the fight to some one who threw less strikes landed a lower percentage of strikes and made no take down attempts.
|
|
Post #45 10/25/09 8:50:44PM
|
|
