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M-1 fighter Toni Valtonen has a swastika tattoo

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slapshot

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I dont care if you are promoting purple turds, in this country you have the right to express it. Anything else would leave your right up to inturpertation as you are showing now and that means your, mine or anyone else's right to expression can be suppressed.

Post #46   9/4/09 1:54:33AM   

Rush

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Posted by slapshot

I dont care if you are promoting purple turds, in this country you have the right to express it. Anything else would leave your right up to inturpertation as you are showing now and that means your, mine or anyone else's right to expression can be suppressed.



Your arguement really comes off as either stubborness or naivety.

I hate to be the one that breaks it to you, but your so called freedoms and rights of speech/expression (in the black and white sense that you are discussing) are an illusion, anywhere in the "free" world. I could cite several examples, both legally and anecdotally to back up my argument.

And yes you can look it up, there are limitations and exceptions to your first amendment.

Last edited 9/4/09 9:22AM server time by Rush
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Post #47   9/4/09 9:22:18AM   

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I also think its quit ignorant to think the nazi's cornered the market on genocide, if we "should all be ashamed of what happened" Then we should be disgusted with ourselves now because right this second genocide is continuing to be carried out in other country's. People speak out about the Nazi's because it makes them feel good but hardly ever do they actually DO anything about the atrocity itself or get off there ass and make sure it stops and never happens again, and that is what we really should be ashamed of.



I've risked my life time and time again fighting against oppressive regimes/terrorist organizations. So that statement doesn't apply to me. Before anyone spouts off about their opinion on either the Iraq or Afghanistan war and whether or not Iraqi people or Afghani people are being oppressed do your homework on a site without an agenda. I'm not going to sit here and justify things you believe but have never seen by wasting my time trying to convince you of the truth in images that are burned into mine and my buddy's minds. I'm not going to post images on this website of decapitated heads in bags or children who were executed at point blank range.

I can see how you'd think you're making sense, but I honestly urge you to visit these places. It takes on a whole new meaning when you experience the dead silence of Normandy beach or catch what you think might be a faint whiff of burnt bodies on Auschwitz. It sounds like I'm exaggerating, but I promise you it will change your life. When I said we should be ashamed of these moments in human history I don't mean we should feel blame for something we didn't do, I mean we should keep in mind what horrible atrocities humans are capable of committing, and as a result of that we should strive to be a better people and stand firm in the face of something like the Nazi symbol. When we see someone with a Nazi symbol tattooed on their arm we should not support him in any one way or another. He can keep his rights, his freedom of speech and his nazi symbol on his arm, but he can also stay jobless and hungry. Why support that kind of ignorance?

I'm all for freedoms, and I've done my part to support them and stop oppressive regimes, but as far as I'm concerned Nazi affiliation should be an illegal one. I wouldn't support somebody wearing an Al-Qaeda tattoo either. For that matter I am not a big fan of Cain Velasquez's brown pride tattoo either. I grew up and live in the southwest, so I know plenty fine what that is all about.

EDIT: By the way, tell these guys that he's got the right to wear a Nazi symbol on his arm

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Post #48   9/4/09 10:29:36AM   

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Posted by Rush

Freedom of "speech" only goes so far. If it is classified as promoting hate it then becomes defined as a crime (at least in Canada).


In the United States, it's a little more cloudy. In Virginia v. Black, et al (2003), U.S. Supreme Court Justice O'Connor wrote,

"The protections the First Amendment affords speech and expressive conduct are not absolute. This Court has long recognized that the government may regulate certain categories of expression consistent with the Constitution. [...]the First Amendment permits a State to ban "true threats," [...]which encompass those statements where the speaker means to communicate a serious expression of an intent to commit an act of unlawful violence to a particular individual or group of individuals. The speaker need not actually intend to carry out the threat. Rather, a prohibition on true threats protects individuals from the fear of violence and the disruption that fear engenders, as well as from the possibility that the threatened violence will occur."

It's an ongoing debate. Here in the U.S. we have the added complication of the rights and responsibilities of our different levels of government. I don't know whether or not that's a concern in Canada or any other democratic country. I guess the judicial authority wielded by the separate courts of the United Kingdom has been a side-story of the release of Abdelbaset Ali Mohmet al-Megrahi by Scotland, but I don't know whether the UK has a "Supreme Court" or what it's function might be.

Post #49   9/4/09 11:04:23AM   

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Posted by Jackelope

By the way, tell these guys that he's got the right to wear a Nazi symbol on his arm


What hasn't been fully established, at least in this country (the U.S.), is whether he has the right to brandish the symbol in view of others. In other countries, it's been established that he can't. If he tried to take an MMA match in Germany, for example, I think he would have to cover the tattoo. And if the German athletic commission didn't authorize whatever method he used to cover it (for example, if they don't allow male fighters to wear tee-shirts), he would essentially be barred from participating in sanctioned matches.

In the US, a Jewish MMA fighter (or anyone representing a group subject to violence by Nazis) might have standing for charging him with assault, as ironic as that sounds.

Post #50   9/4/09 11:14:55AM   
 
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