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Disgusted by Dan

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Posted by moob

So basically what the general consensus is that as long as the Ref doesn't intervene, you can get as many unnecessary shots at your opponent regardless of what might happen as a result of said shots being landed on a defenceless fighter.

I have a problem with that.






Then really you have a problem with the rules of engagment in the octagon and the ref's ability to stop a fight at an instant, rather than Henderson?



Posted by moob

What if (and yes, I know it is a big what if) the Ref had slipped (it's happened before) and been unable to stop Henderson/or any other fighter punching the life out of a KO'd opponent for a significant amount of time. At what point is it deemed unacceptable - or is the feeling that 'you continue until the ref pulls you off' still hold true and firm?





Yes, this stuff happens. However, 1) it didn't in this particular case 2) I don't think it's nor should it be the fighter's responsibility to determine when a fight is over. That doesn't mean they can't, I just think they shouldn't have to. I can name a number of situations where a fight could be finished, a fighter hesitates because he thinks the other guy is done, only to lose in the end.



Posted by moob

This is a sport, a sport attempting to seek legitimacy throughout the world and let's face it - New York is the ultimate goal for the UFC. Incidents like this don't do anything to make the sport look more legit in the eyes of those who believe it is still the same as it once was in UFC 1.



Yes, I agree about the fragility of the sport in terms of its image. However, what transpired in this fight was within the rules. Henderson did nothing wrong in terms of the rules. If I was to make a comparable situation, telling Hederson he can't follow up with an insurance shot is like telling Shane Carwin not to hit a guy at full power. One could also look at the situation the other way too. What if the ref did stop it sooner and Bisping started chirping like Koscheck after the Paulo Thiago fight? Then we would all be bitching about whether it was a premature stoppage, etc.


I know I probably said some stuff that was said before (or not) on this thread. If I did I apologize, but I didn't have time to read it all yet.

Post #76   7/13/09 7:32:32AM   

tmas

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im gonna end this RIDICULAS disscussion right now! facts.

1.) You fight to win
2.) You fight until the ref tells you to stop.
put those together and if you dont fight till ref steps in, you get Nog V herring.......
3.) Hendo knocked Bisping to the ground, in the heat of the moment #1 its hard to determine that fast if someone is KOed, (even the ref didnt realize it in that split 2nd) and since you fight until ref stops you, then you MUST FINISH THE FIGHT.
4.) with that logic Hendo not only did NOTHING WRONG, but DID WHAT HE WAS SUPPOSE TO!!!!
5.) The comments were meant to be a joke ok distasteful yes possibly but Hendo just gained a fan for life just for shutting that Bisping up!!!!! w000h00)!!! for real though i felt terrible when i saw the replay i actually sat down at the table and prayed for Bisping's health im not gonna lie first thing that came to my mind was that he would never fight agian/die/have some perm brain damage it was a vicisous KO and flying elbow.

Hendo did nothing wrong, he did exactly what any fighter should have done, i know if im in that situation when i fight im sure as hecks not letting my opponet clear his head and the fight not be stopped......unless im 100% certain the guy is actually hurt and i could kill em.

Post #77   7/13/09 1:08:45PM   

thefyn

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It was absolutely shocking and a cheap shot.

Most importantly, it was very VERY funny.

Post #78   7/13/09 2:36:33PM   

world_mma

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....unless im 100% certain the guy is actually hurt


That's the crux of this argument....

Did Hendo know he was unconscious?

Unfortunately his comments afterwards say yes.
His general demeanour and former professionalism say no.

With his comments, I don't believe he meant what he said; I think he was trying to be funny. It backfired. It just shows that some fighters aren't cut out to be personalities as well.

A good discussion to have rather than ridiculous (or however you spelt it).

PS Thanks ever so much for finishing this discussion for us all.....

Last edited 7/13/09 3:48PM server time by world_mma
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Post #79   7/13/09 3:45:08PM   

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Posted by world_mma


Posted by Kpro

And I do believe that Henderson made the post-fight comments to get a pop from the crowd.






Only with this point, mind....
Still, stupid comments or actions, intended or not, still deserve reprimand.



Why is it that is pretty much only the UK people that are gettin mad about this?

Post #80   7/13/09 3:47:59PM   

DosBox

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I am surprised a lot of people have been making quite a big deal out of this. These things happen all of the time. Also, watching it in real time did not look bad at all. The slow-motion looked far more worse than what Henderson really did.

Belcher/Santiago
Henderson/Wanderlei
Yvel/Rizzo
Gonzaga/Cro Cop
Rampage/Wanderlei (The ref even tried to stop Rampage as well)
Damacio Page/ Marcos Galvao
Cro Cop/ Igor
Yves/Josh Thomson
Evans/Salmon

... and the list goes on and on... and on... and on.... AND ON

Just in case, to avoid that .001% chance the fighter could recover from a killer blow, you go until the referee stops the bout.

If Hendo pulled out such a "dick move" what are the reasons why the other fighters have done the same thing?

Henderson "shut him up", but followed the rules while doing so, Im still surprised why a lot of people are up in arms over this, especially when this happens all of the time.

Watch it in real time and it looks far less worse than it does in slow-motion.

Post #81   7/13/09 3:54:12PM   

UFCmma666

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Posted by DosBox

I am surprised a lot of people have been making quite a big deal out of this. These things happen all of the time. Also, watching it in real time did not look bad at all. The slow-motion looked far more worse than what Henderson really did.

Belcher/Santiago
Henderson/Wanderlei
Yvel/Rizzo
Gonzaga/Cro Cop
Rampage/Wanderlei (The ref even tried to stop Rampage as well)
Damacio Page/ Marcos Galvao
Cro Cop/ Igor
Yves/Josh Thomson
Evans/Salmon

... and the list goes on and on... and on... and on.... AND ON

Just in case, to avoid that .001% chance the fighter could recover from a killer blow, you go until the referee stops the bout.

If Hendo pulled out such a "dick move" what are the reasons why the other fighters have done the same thing?

Henderson "shut him up", but followed the rules while doing so, Im still surprised why a lot of people are up in arms over this, especially when this happens all of the time.

Watch it in real time and it looks far less worse than it does in slow-motion.



exactly what i was thinking and about to post

Post #82   7/13/09 3:56:57PM   

world_mma

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Posted by Naturaldisaster


Posted by world_mma


Posted by Kpro

And I do believe that Henderson made the post-fight comments to get a pop from the crowd.






Only with this point, mind....
Still, stupid comments or actions, intended or not, still deserve reprimand.



Why is it that is pretty much only the UK people that are gettin mad about this?



I'm very calm about the whole thing! There are a few non-Brits speaking up as well. Its not, and don't try and make it, a nationality thing. Of course some of us Brits have a special interest in Bisping, but give us some credit - we are not making Dan saying "it was deliberate" up. If it was a fighter you followed (from your country or another) you would be the same. I do believe if it was the other way round I would be saying the same about Bisping - that he was wrong.

That's all. We are not pushing for a lifetime ban, a fine or anything of the sort. We are just looking for some admittance that hitting an unconscious opponent when you know he is unconscious is not really on (Dan said it).

Following the Hamill fight Bisping got seriously flamed for his ill-advised comment. Now Dan makes some (imho) worse comments and gets people (blindly) supporting him.

Double standards anyone?

Post #83   7/13/09 4:12:11PM   

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Posted by DosBox

I am surprised a lot of people have been making quite a big deal out of this. These things happen all of the time. Also, watching it in real time did not look bad at all. The slow-motion looked far more worse than what Henderson really did.

Belcher/Santiago
Henderson/Wanderlei
Yvel/Rizzo
Gonzaga/Cro Cop
Rampage/Wanderlei (The ref even tried to stop Rampage as well)
Damacio Page/ Marcos Galvao
Cro Cop/ Igor
Yves/Josh Thomson
Evans/Salmon

... and the list goes on and on... and on... and on.... AND ON

Just in case, to avoid that .001% chance the fighter could recover from a killer blow, you go until the referee stops the bout.

If Hendo pulled out such a "dick move" what are the reasons why the other fighters have done the same thing?

Henderson "shut him up", but followed the rules while doing so, Im still surprised why a lot of people are up in arms over this, especially when this happens all of the time.

Watch it in real time and it looks far less worse than it does in slow-motion.



F*ck me. All this argument is putting across is what everyone (maybe apart from moob) believes.

It was his comment about it being deliberate and calculated, knowing Bisping was gone. Thats the bad bit. Watch it at any speed, who cares.

It's his admission afterwards that stinks and cannot, and should not, be condoned by any sane fan.

Not one of those fighters mentioned said in the interview afterwards that they knew he was out and that it was a deliberate cheap shot........

Last edited 7/13/09 4:24PM server time by world_mma
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Post #84   7/13/09 4:18:18PM   

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Posted by world_mma


Posted by DosBox

I am surprised a lot of people have been making quite a big deal out of this. These things happen all of the time. Also, watching it in real time did not look bad at all. The slow-motion looked far more worse than what Henderson really did.

Belcher/Santiago
Henderson/Wanderlei
Yvel/Rizzo
Gonzaga/Cro Cop
Rampage/Wanderlei (The ref even tried to stop Rampage as well)
Damacio Page/ Marcos Galvao
Cro Cop/ Igor
Yves/Josh Thomson
Evans/Salmon

... and the list goes on and on... and on... and on.... AND ON

Just in case, to avoid that .001% chance the fighter could recover from a killer blow, you go until the referee stops the bout.

If Hendo pulled out such a "dick move" what are the reasons why the other fighters have done the same thing?

Henderson "shut him up", but followed the rules while doing so, Im still surprised why a lot of people are up in arms over this, especially when this happens all of the time.

Watch it in real time and it looks far less worse than it does in slow-motion.



F*ck me. All this argument is putting across is what everyone (maybe apart from moob) believes.

It was his comment about it being deliberate and calculated, knowing Bisping was gone. Thats the bad bit. Watch it at any speed, who cares.

It's his admission afterwards that stinks and cannot, and should not, be condoned by any sane fan.

Not one of those fighters mentioned said in the interview afterwards that they knew he was out and that it was a deliberate cheap shot........



well what about fights were the fighter continuously hits the opponent even after the ref trys to stop the bout like rampage vs silva or is that excused because rampage trains with bisping and the wolfs lair

Post #85   7/13/09 4:41:27PM   

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Posted by world_mma

It's his admission afterwards that stinks and cannot, and should not, be condoned by any sane fan.

Not one of those fighters mentioned said in the interview afterwards that they knew he was out and that it was a deliberate cheap shot........



For the first part, I agree. He should have said I was just going until the ref stopped the fight... even if he would have been lying, it is far safer to say that.

Second... I dont if Joe Rogan or any interviewer on the spot immediately after asked the same types of questions to my aforementioned examples, especially after emotional fighters. HOWEVER, Yves Lavigne even while restraining Rampage in the Wanderlei (after Silva got KO'd) fight still managed to "rape choke" and add in 2-3 extra punches. This is FAR worse than Henderson managed on Bisping.



Maybe a lesson is to not talk trash, and let the fight sell itself (and I hope you dont think im just directing this at Bisping). An emotional fight can sometimes be bad, but it will be hard not to talk trash because this is an emotional sport.

To say Henderson was bad because he was saying he deliberately added a shot in should be no different than Rashad Evans unloading on an unconscious body of Sean Salmon and saying he was just going until the referee. Gonzaga head kicking Cro Cop.. he didnt think Cro Cop was out? Im pretty sure Evans knew Salmon was gone, im pretty sure Cro Cop knew Igor was gone, etc etc etc etc etc............... These ACTIONS should be louder than the WORDS.






Now... at the press conference (which isnt immediately after the fight when Rogan was talking to him and Henderson actually had time to think about it)


Henderson had this to say about the fight

"When youre in the heat of the moment... the ref hadnt stopped me yet, who knows whats gonna happen if hes gonna recover, if there gonna stop the fight.
Ya know... and I really only hit him twice, once on my feet and once on the ground, I didnt keep going, I didnt go after the ref tried to stop me, nothing like that. It was just a reaction of mine to keep going till I was stopped... it did feel good though".




Looks like we will agree to disagree in this case.







Post #86   7/13/09 4:58:36PM   

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I don't think we have to agree to disagree. In the main, you are right.

Rampage was wrong. Henderson was wrong. Levels of 'wrongness' - debatable.

Henderson has altered his initial statement, showing a small admission of a mistake made. Job done.

Just unfortunate that most of the casual fans will only have seen the immediate post-fight interview. It does nothing for the image of MMA imo.

PS Didn't Rampage get fined/reprimanded for his?

Last edited 7/13/09 5:16PM server time by world_mma
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Post #87   7/13/09 5:13:52PM   

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IMO if bisping himself didint find anything wrong with it i don't think anyone else should. But again, only my opinion

Post #88   7/13/09 5:32:16PM   

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Posted by world_mma


Just unfortunate that most of the casual fans will only have seen the immediate post-fight interview. It does nothing for the image of MMA imo.



I also think Hendo's laid back personality has a lot to do with him either getting a pass in this episode or people not making such a big deal about it. So calm even when he somewhat admitted to the fact of the "extra punch" which I still dont necessarily mind tbh, this was a more emotional/ bad blood fight. This happens not only in MMA, but MLB, NFL, etc.....

**Or perhaps the reason most people might not make it such a big deal because it was grossly overshadowed by the post fight antics of Brock Lesnar. Maybe when people see what happened there we tend to think what Henderson did was merely childs play.

Well, it could also be because there are a lot of Bisping haters... he certainly is a character and has a somewhat "heel" personality.


In saying all that, there were a lot of instances/variables that occurred at UFC 100 where Hendersons actions are basically drowned out.


---I cant find anything about Rampage being fined after the Wanderlei fight.

Post #89   7/13/09 5:36:44PM   

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IF you had a problem with it then you should petition the state athletic commissions and tell them to change their rules to say "Fighters are not allowed to punch unconscious fighters"...... we'll see how well that goes


I dont care why he did it, no matter what it was well within the rules...THE END

Post #90   7/13/09 5:39:57PM   
 
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