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Dan Henderson: Brock Lesnar Will Be Unstoppable, Didn't Earn Title Shot

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CwB

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so many comments for and against lesner that i disagree with that i dont know where to start so i wont

Post #16   6/28/09 6:34:24PM   

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Brock Lesnar is a very good wrestler,thats IT.He has No ground game,which most of the posters think he has learned in 16 months.16 months with any respected black'd belted instuctor would make you a what,not even a purple belt at Very best.His striking is basic straight forward,jab,jab,boom.The ONLY way he beats a well rounded not over the hill legit heayweight is by bull wrestling,and gnp.YES it is more then enough to stop most average heavyweights.I believe that he can be sub'd or ko'd by the best heavy's.The only problem is that i think the ones with the best chance of beating Brock are the two guy's fighting each other shortly.I think the loser Fedor or Josh could both serve Brock on a platter.I am a devoted UFC fan,dont get me wrong and i love the fact that with Brock,he seems to really want to evolve into the champ that he wants.I just don't think there is any technique to his ground and stand up.Classic battle of Strenth vs Technique.

Post #17   6/28/09 7:00:23PM   

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Lesnar has been training for like 3 years now. Not that it's a whole bunch of time, but it's definitely not 16 months. Besides, wrestling accounts for something, and given that his life was devoted to wrestling and physical strength, athleticism, etc... it's not like he is some couch potato who just decided to try MMA.

What I'm getting at is that wrestling, strength, and athleticism can overcome a lack of an overall game to a certain extent. I agree that the top heavyweights will give Lesnar problems based on the technique disparity, but you simply can't say that a guy like Brock with 3 years of training is the same as some regular dude with 3 years training.

Also, I'm going to continue to hound on this point- Until they tighten up the weight range for heavyweight he will most always have a distinct size and strength advantage over his opponents. The fact that he's able to take advantage of a division full of guys much smaller than him is my main problem with Lesnar, but it's something we've all got to deal with. The fact is that if Brock Lesnar or anyone with his current qualifications had to fight at 155, 170, 185 or 205 he would most likely be considered a complete joke. Because a person at those weight classes can't expect to have a 20, 30, 40 or even 50 lb. weight advantage over their opponent. Come fight time Lesnar will have a 20-30 lb advantage over Mir, he had the same against Herring, and he outweighed Couture by 50 lbs in their fight.

Post #18   6/28/09 8:20:15PM   

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I think I would wait and see if Brock can even get by Mir first before I started listing all the reasons why no one in the UFC HW division can even hang with him.

I haven't heard this much "greatest of all time" hype for a 3-1 fighter since Sokoudjou.We all know how that one turned out.......

WB.

Post #19   6/29/09 3:46:40AM   

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if any top heavyweight can beat him, how did he take the title from randy in the first placE?

Post #20   7/2/09 10:32:29PM   

warglory

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Posted by mkiv9secsupra


Posted by warglory


Posted by mkiv9secsupra

Lesnar will be unstoppable at some point but he has soooooo many holes in his game that i can see almost any top HW beat him at the moment



Who Kongo? The man would get taken down by Lesnar and annihilated. Big Nog? He would get KOed and Lesnar's wrestling and (hopefully jits defense) would nullify Nog's abilities on the mat.

Te only two heavyweights I see challenging Lesnar right now, besides Mir of course, would be Carwin and Velasquez for obvious reasons; they are big and powerful and won't be bullied on the ground.



MMAPG's top 10 HWs
1.Fedor Emelianenko
2.Frank Mir
3.Josh Barnett
4. Lesnar
5.Nogueira
6.Couture
7.Carwin
8.Valasquez
9.Overeem
10.Arlovski

Kongo IS NOT in the top 10 and i agree lesnar would make a fool out of him unless brock decided to stand for some reason.

-#1,#2,#3,#5 have such a massive overall grappling advantage Lesnar doesnt stand much of a chance imo.
-Carwin would KO Lesnar 1st round
-Valsquez and Overeem have a massive advantage striking and could nullify Lesnars ground advances and force Lesnar to LnP

The only two top ten i could see Lesnar beating are Couture and Arlovski

just my opinion..... Lesnar's only wins are from stylistically good match ups for him. He still isnt a good striker by any means, and we havent seen anything in the form of subs/defense. We still dont know if he has a decent gas tank....Too many holes to say he is any kind unstoppable force




How can you list Overeem as top 10, but not Kongo? And none of those opponents you listed, save for Frank Mir and Fedor, have a distinct advantage on the ground, I'm sorry.

Last edited 7/3/09 10:53AM server time by warglory
Edit note/reason: n/a

Post #21   7/3/09 10:51:40AM   

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I think for every HW that has a tool that can exploit Brock's apparent weakness(es), I think Brock has a tool to exploit theirs. Speaking in general terms, I don't think there are too many UFC fighters that one could say have no holes in their skill/game. Even the ones that apparently don't, one would always speak on relative terms.

Post #22   7/3/09 5:54:35PM   

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I've kind of reversed posistions on the subject.

When Brock first came to the UFC I was really cheering for him because I am a Pro-Wrestling fan as well an MMA fan and a lot of people gave him little chance of sucsuss in the UFC.

Now I think people tend to give him a little bit too much love.

I'll try to be as fair as I can and see it from both sides.(sorry for the long post)

Brock has proven he has a place in the UFC beyond a shadow of a doubt,but I think the guy has a lot of work left in front of him in order to stay on top.
I think the fairest way to anaylize Brocks skills is to simply look at his skills alone.
Lets forget for a moment that Brock cuts to 265 and just leave his size out of the picture.(I know in some anaylises that will be hard to do but just imagine it)

I don't really know how many stats you can acredit to Brock without his size advantage giving him that huge push.
We haven't seen him off his back (which you can consider a back handed compliment)
His stand up is improving,but I don't think it's anything based off skill alone to go crazy about.
His sub defense and offensive is still up in the air.
His biggest assest is his wrestling. With or without the size I say his wrestling is still just as solid.

Brock ran threw Herring,and was dominating Mir.
He took Couture in the second round.
Yes,I would say he's proven himself but I think their's some criticisms any fan worth his weight beer can make.

The Good: He beat Couture. The more seasoned and skilled fighter.

The Bad: Couture was coming off a pretty big layoff.
And with that being said was still able to pin the bigger,stronger,Lesnar up against the cage in less than 15 seconds. When I think about that fact alone I have to lean towards guys like Carwin and Cain making a very,very,competitive match up for Lesnar. They might not have Coutures credintials,but I believe they have enough of their own strengths to take Brock.

The Good: He beat Heath Herring. A guy who's fought a who's who of MMA stars.Sure he didn't finish Herring,but Brock was still earning his stripes and Heath is a tough dude anyway.

The Bad: The Heath that Brock fought,is not the prime Heath Herring who was a top 10 in the heyday of PRIDE. Looking back on it,it seems more like a gatekeeper fight.

The Good: He nearly beat Mir,and had he not been deducted a point,may have taken the fight.

The Bad: Mir might have shown Brocks biggest weakness with submission defense. Lesnar even admitted they trained to defened the same move 1,000 times over.


Thinking about it I have to end with this

1. Brock earned his spot by taking down Couture. Plain and simple

2. He may have taken Couture,but who's to say some of the other up and comers in the HW division couldn't have done the same? It's looking more stacked than ever and Brock seemed to get leap frogged ahead. Mainly on name recognition.

3. I think Brocks most competitive fights won't be against guys like Mir,Couture,or Nog,but the UFC's other young blood such as Cain,Carwin,Kongo,Dos Santos,Gonzaga,etc.

4. When analizying Brocks skills on the skillls alone, I don't see anything amazing on the exception of his wrestling. I think what we have seen of him is on par and he's making progress, but I don't think we've witnessed anything to gawk at yet if you take out the weight equation.

5. Lesnar is simply is beast. A force to be reckoned with.
I would say Brock is a fighter of great potential,and has showed us a nice portion of what he has to offer as an MMA fighter.
Whether you agree with how he got their are not,for better or for worse,he is the UFC HW champion.

Post #23   7/3/09 8:11:53PM   

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Posted by mrsmiley

I don't really know how many stats you can acredit to Brock without his size advantage giving him that huge push.
.




Good post overall.

I do want to comment on this because I touched on it in another thread. I'm not sure if you read it. I think the aspect of size is kind of moot when it comes to HWs. First of all, the fact that Brock is big kind of makes eventual criticism of his putative technique inevitable. Throughout my martial arts experience (12 years+) I have seen this type of criticism over and over again. Big guys always get burned, regardless of their skill, because of the sole fact that they are big and strong and are therefore accused of using that over technique. I think at some point you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. Last time I checked things like size and speed are assets to MMA (pretty much any sport). So how come guys in the smaller weight divisions get credited for their size, strength and/or speed, but a HW is criticized for it?

Also, as I said in the other thread, you have small HWs and you have big HWs. There is nothing holding the smaller HWs back from bulking up to try and get a strength or size advantage. Instead, some choose to stay on the smaller side in favour of agility and speed.

Post #24   7/3/09 8:58:54PM   

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Posted by Rush


Posted by mrsmiley

I don't really know how many stats you can acredit to Brock without his size advantage giving him that huge push.
.




Good post overall.

I do want to comment on this because I touched on it in another thread. I'm not sure if you read it. I think the aspect of size is kind of moot when it comes to HWs. First of all, the fact that Brock is big kind of makes eventual criticism of his putative technique inevitable. Throughout my martial arts experience (12 years+) I have seen this type of criticism over and over again. Big guys always get burned, regardless of their skill, because of the sole fact that they are big and strong and are therefore accused of using that over technique. I think at some point you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. Last time I checked things like size and speed are assets to MMA (pretty much any sport). So how come guys in the smaller weight divisions get credited for their size, strength and/or speed, but a HW is criticized for it?

Also, as I said in the other thread, you have small HWs and you have big HWs. There is nothing holding the smaller HWs back from bulking up to try and get a strength or size advantage. Instead, some choose to stay on the smaller side in favour of agility and speed.




I think it will be interesting to see what happens with a lot of these bigger guys making their way into MMA.
If guys like Brock and Lashley are the beginning of a big trend in MMA HW's,and they see lots of sucsuss,I don't think it will be long before people start talking about a SHW class.
I'm not really fond of the idea,but I could see it happening.

I agree with you that in most cases bigger guys get bigger criticism.
A more skilled,smaller fighter should most the time be able to offset the bigger mans size.Neutralizing that advantage.
So long as the bigger guy isn't as well versed as the smaller man in skills.
Then the smaller guy will be in trouble.


"So how come guys in the smaller weight divisions get credited for their size, strength and/or speed, but a HW is criticized for it?"

I do agree that HW's get called out on it more than any other weight class,but I do think we see other guys get criticized for it to. Just not as much.


More than anything I was trying to point out that I believe Brock relies more on his size than most people are saying.
I believe he's improved,but I'm not willing to make the leap that he's advanced as much as some are giving him credit for.
I don't think we've seen him fight enough to really make a fair call,whether it be positive or negative.
I'm excited to see Brocks next 2 or 3 fights though.
Those will be most telling.

Post #25   7/3/09 10:28:48PM   
 
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