Frank Mir Vs Brock Lesnar |
| Posted By |
Message |
bjj1605
MMA Sensei
Career record: 626-379
Season: 39-11 (#165)
Location: Chicago
|
I see this fight a lot differently than most people. Brock got subbed easy last time and he won't be stupid. He's got heavy hands and he'll be able to dictate where the fight goes. I see his strategy as trying to stand with Mir and land a big right hand. That will be his down fall. Mir showed great striking against Nog and I think he'll outclass brock standing. All he has to do is not get knocked out and the fight is his. i think its actually a much closer fight on the mat. Mir has sick jits but brock is big and a good wrestler. I think he'll have improved his submission defense a lot and could eek out a lay and pray decision or maybe even a TKO from the top.
Still he won't wanna go there. Brock has wrestling and size while Mir has technique and experience. I for one will always go with the latter. Mir by 3rd round standing TKO
|
|
Post #16 4/28/09 2:40:32PM
|
|
|
Jackelope
Go ahead, MOD my day
Career record: 586-330
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: Getting choked out or arm barred
|
Posted by fizzle
I think with everything, there needs to be opportunity as well the person in the fight needs to have skill, it is a marriage of both. If a JJ wizard is fighting a guy who is good at everything, for example, and is unable to secure the sub, i don't consider the guy having any less skill but never found himself in an OPPORTUNITY to finish, I consider this unlucky. I think that luck always has has a part to play in all sports, no matter what it is. I think that no matter what i say, im going to wrong to you and my point will not get across, so im just going to leave it at this. Though i don't appreciate you telling me for one reason or another that i am fond of choosing my words poorly. An opinion is an opinion. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Well for the record I never attacked you, I just defended any fighter who puts in incredible amounts of work as someone who would get "lucky". As for poking fun at your choice of words, I think most members here would agree that telling a mod to chill out and that he's "barking up the wrong tree" would constitute poorly chosen words.
Luck involves circumstances outside of your control. Like a meteorite crashing through the ceiling and KTFO'ing Lesnar.
Skill involves capitalizing on opportunities presented to you. Brock left his leg out there. Frank grabbed it and submitted him. That's skill. There is absolutely 0 room for logical argument to that. However, I am all ears and I encourage any response that would make an attempt.
P.S. the only real "luck" or "miracle" argument you could make involves the referee standing them up. So feel free to take that road if you wish
|
|
Post #17 4/28/09 2:40:49PM
|
Advertisement |
|
bjj1605
MMA Sensei
Career record: 626-379
Season: 39-11 (#165)
Location: Chicago
|
Posted by Jackelope
Posted by fizzle
I think with everything, there needs to be opportunity as well the person in the fight needs to have skill, it is a marriage of both. If a JJ wizard is fighting a guy who is good at everything, for example, and is unable to secure the sub, i don't consider the guy having any less skill but never found himself in an OPPORTUNITY to finish, I consider this unlucky. I think that luck always has has a part to play in all sports, no matter what it is. I think that no matter what i say, im going to wrong to you and my point will not get across, so im just going to leave it at this. Though i don't appreciate you telling me for one reason or another that i am fond of choosing my words poorly. An opinion is an opinion. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Well for the record I never attacked you, I just defended any fighter who puts in incredible amounts of work as someone who would get "lucky". As for poking fun at your choice of words, I think most members here would agree that telling a mod to chill out and that he's "barking up the wrong tree" would constitute poorly chosen words.
Luck involves circumstances outside of your control. Like a meteorite crashing through the ceiling and KTFO'ing Lesnar.
Skill involves capitalizing on opportunities presented to you. Brock left his leg out there. Frank grabbed it and submitted him. That's skill. There is absolutely 0 room for logical argument to that. However, I am all ears and I encourage any response that would make an attempt.
P.S. the only real "luck" or "miracle" argument you could make involves the referee standing them up. So feel free to take that road if you wish
You know what Jackelope I completely disagree with you. There are miracle subs. In any case where Jesus himself jumps into the ring and slaps on a rear naked choke it is a miracle sub.
On a more serious no I don't think the term lucky punch or lucky sub make any sense. You meant to do it, you did it, and it worked. I think there is more room to claim that something was lucky punch but thats still pushing it. I've honestly never before heard lucky sub or miracle sub and I think the idea is as ludicrous as anything I've ever heard. If you take the time to trap a limb and apply a submission I don't see how it could be anything other then a planned and well executed maneuver with no room for luck at all.
To say he was lucky that brock left his leg in there makes less sense. That means brock was stupid or did something stupid. Not that frank was lucky. I'm not sure how this even became a discussion as it seems obvious that a lucky submission is practically an oxymoron. The very act of getting a submission seems to contradict the idea that it was lucky. 
Last edited 4/28/09 3:02PM by bjj1605
Edit note/reason: n/a
|
|
Post #18 4/28/09 3:01:47PM
|
mrsmiley
Heavyweight Champ
Career record: 643-370
Season: 38-12 (#96)
Location: Middletown,OH
|
I think I gotta go with Mir winning this.
I think Brock will be cautious about going back to the ground this time around and will work a little standup.
However,I see Mir's standup looking crisper and much faster.
I say Brock gets frustrated and makes a mistake sometime in the 3rd or 4th round.
|
|
Post #19 4/28/09 3:07:23PM
|
Hendo67
MMA Sensei
Career record: 492-311
Season: 32-15 (#1605)
Location: Yellowknife, Northwest Territories
|
Brock via KO, or TKO in the early second round.
|
|
Post #20 4/28/09 3:34:25PM
|
mkiv9secsupra
MMA Sensei
Career record: 619-398
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: ATL, GA
|
I dont see any way for Brock to win except by purposely getting himslef caught in a triangle and doing the Rampage power bomb on Mir. But also Brock has tremendous power so if Mir gets careless there is a chance he could be TKO'd....
Its fights like these that make me hate the HW division right now.. Brock Lesnar vs Frank Mir for the heavyweight title while Nogueira, Couture, Arlovski, Emelianenko, and Overeem are nowhere in sight!!! HW=irrelevant
Last edited 4/28/09 4:05PM by mkiv9secsupra
Edit note/reason: n/a
|
|
Post #21 4/28/09 4:02:49PM
|
Jackelope
Go ahead, MOD my day
Career record: 586-330
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: Getting choked out or arm barred
|
Posted by mkiv9secsupra
I dont see any way for Brock to win except by purposely getting himslef caught in a triangle and doing the Rampage power bomb on Mir. But also Brock has tremendous power so if Mir gets careless there is a chance he could be TKO'd....
Its fights like these that make me hate the HW division right now.. Brock Lesnar vs Frank Mir for the heavyweight title while Nogueira, Couture, Arlovski, Emelianenko, and Overeem are nowhere in sight!!! HW=irrelevant
For the most part I agree. Although I'll admit I am getting excited about Velasquez, Dos Santos, Carwin, and I've got to admit that even Kongo has shown some growth lately. Plus, you've got to admit that since Frank and Brock beat Noguiera and Couture respectively, there's something to be said for their place in a title fight. Just some thoughts
|
|
Post #22 4/28/09 5:44:22PM
|
Franklinfan47
MMA Sensei
Career record: 727-389
Season: 37-13 (#115)
Location: Ontario
|
Posted by mkiv9secsupra
I dont see any way for Brock to win except by purposely getting himslef caught in a triangle and doing the Rampage power bomb on Mir. But also Brock has tremendous power so if Mir gets careless there is a chance he could be TKO'd....
Its fights like these that make me hate the HW division right now.. Brock Lesnar vs Frank Mir for the heavyweight title while Nogueira, Couture, Arlovski, Emelianenko, and Overeem are nowhere in sight!!! HW=irrelevant
I don't know how valid this statement is, since Lesnar and Mir beat Couture and Big Nog to get to this fight. Plus, they are fighting at ufc 102, so to say they are no where in sight is a bit of an overstatement.
As for Emelianenko, Arlovski, and Overeem, I think the only one who would make any difference is Fedor imo.
|
|
Post #23 4/29/09 1:10:50PM
|
imanidiot777
In Full Mount
Career record: 233-149
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
|
If Brock sticks to the right game plan he should be able to win this fight. If you watch his three fights, his striking looked significantly better in each. He looked completely uncomfortable on his feet against Mir the first time. Against Herring, he could throw punches a little better and plan his takedowns a little more but still kept it mostly on the ground. Against Randy his form looked fine and his punches were obviously hard because the knockdown punch wasn't even direct. We have been told he has been working on his submission defense skills but we haven't seen those in action yet. If his skills keep increasing at this rate his standup will be better than Mir's.
Even if he does take Mir down, how do we know he won't do what he did to Herring? He kept him in a position where he couldn't pull guard or do any submissions and he did it easily for three rounds. Herring was 255 lbs for that fight so basically Mir's size so I don't want to hear that Mir is too big for that.
On the feet, at the rate Brock has improved I'd give him the standup. Basically the only thing he MUST avoid is Mir's guard. If Mir tries to pull guard he has to let him stand up.
|
|
Post #24 4/29/09 6:16:41PM
|
Jackelope
Go ahead, MOD my day
Career record: 586-330
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: Getting choked out or arm barred
|
@ imanidiot
You've got some points, but I don't agree with your assessment of Brock's growth pushing him beyond Mir. This is actually counter-intuitive to some views I've had in the past, but I think technique wise Mir still has a massive edge in striking. The only difference is that Brock, being so huge and strong, will have a natural chin and heavy hands. If I was Mir, in the 1st round I would avoid any normal ranged exchanges on the feet with Brock. I'd be trying to clinch him up, tire him out, possibly play on the ground for a bit, and then play with his striking later. Guys who aren't advanced in striking will show their true colors as they grow even more tired and take even more damage. The reason why I wouldn't want to play with Brock in the 1st is because his natural explosiveness and power will be there, and he's shown a willingness to take some damage in order to throw a bomb.
So the post is counter-intuitive in the sense that I actually agree with you about learning curves being much steeper when someone is young in the sport, but I think it is fair to say that Mir has been striking long enough (his whole life basically) that his technique on the feet will be years ahead of Brock's. The only X factor here is that Brock is so massive.
As for Lesnar being able to lay on Frank like he did on Herring- I would be outright shocked to see him pull that off. Heath Herring has always been a top position grappler and a decent scrambler. Herring, to me, is like the quintessential defensive fighter. His survival skills are so good no matter the circumstances that he has been able to build a lot of wins based on the "Homer Simpson factor" as I would call it. Basically his opponents have been so neutralized by his powerful survival skills that his lackluster finishing skills have carried him to victory over neutralized opponents. Does that make any sense to anyone?
Mir is completely different in the sense that he's got a very dangerous, if not one of the most dangerous offenses in all of MMA. His defense is actually where he lacks the most. Most of the time Frank Mir is either going to finish you early, or he's going to lose. Mir will not be happy to lay there and take a beating. He will either go for something dangerous and get KTFO'd, or he'll snag any tiny little piece of limb you leave out there and make something happen with it. That's why he has several rare and completely acrobatic submissions on his record. His sweep to ankle lock on Tank Abbott, the Mir Lock he pulled off, and his flowing transitions one to the other for the arm lock he submitted Antoni Hardonk with. He's willing to take chances with that incredible grip and core strength he must have considering the submissions he's pulled off. When he grabs something he is grabbing with the intention to take it home with him, and the agility of his guard is something we've very rarely (if ever) seen from heavyweights. That translates to a powerful offense. So, with respect for some of the points you've made, I think that to compare Mir and Herring is a total waste of time. Not that I'm trying to totally crap on your points here
Last edited 4/29/09 8:05PM by Jackelope
Edit note/reason: n/a
2 total post edits
|
|
Post #25 4/29/09 8:02:44PM
|
mrsmiley
Heavyweight Champ
Career record: 643-370
Season: 38-12 (#96)
Location: Middletown,OH
|
I think Mir is just a bad match up for Brock.
When you watch Mir fight,it's almost like he's not their for an athletic competition, but instead is showing "self defence". (sorry if that don't make sense)
I think Rogan said it best when he made the claim that Mir is great at small man Ju-Jitsu.
|
|
Post #26 4/29/09 8:11:30PM
|
AchillesHeel
Heavyweight Champ
Career record: 594-345
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: In the cheap seats.
|
Posted by imanidiot777
Even if he does take Mir down, how do we know he won't do what he did to Herring?
Mir is a better jiu-jitsu fighter than Herring.
Posted by mrsmiley
When you watch Mir fight,it's almost like he's not their for an athletic competition, but instead is showing "self defence". (sorry if that don't make sense)
Mir has said "We train to break it; if you tap out first, then good for you." This could be (a) trash talk designed to get in his opponents' heads, and (b) true for a lot of pro fighters, but then he went ahead and actually snapped a guy's arm in half.
Last edited 4/30/09 10:18AM by AchillesHeel
Edit note/reason: n/a
|
|
Post #27 4/30/09 10:12:49AM
|
sbulldavid
MMA Sensei
Career record: 569-323
Season: 39-11 (#69)
Location:
|
I can see this fight ending like the Pete Williams fight , but I think Brock is quicker than that.
It could go like the first fight , with Lesnar getting the finish this time , but I think Mir knows what to expect this time .
This version of Frank Mir is better than the former HW champion version of Mir. Brock Lesnar is for real though.
So they come out and feel each other out
if Mir throws a kick he gets taken down
if Lesnar throws a punch he's going to follow with a takedown If Lesnar connects , Mir rolls into guard
Mir pulls guard right away this time. Mir by kimura .
|
|
Post #28 5/27/09 8:21:35PM
|
mikevolz
Standup Guy
Career record: 156-98
Season: 0-0 (#-)
Location: us
|
I have always thought frank mir was capable of that kind of stand up he used against nog. he has always had really technical stand up, but just a lot of power.
he does get wildly flustered when he gets hit though. his chin isnt very good, and he goes haywire when he gets hit.
i wouldnt bet on the fight, i think we are right in thinking brock is a 2-1 maybe even a 3-1 favorite, but anything other than that is giving either one of them too much credit.
im praying like hell lesnar gets his leg broken, although if that happens mir is going to be unbearable. i just dont want to here the lesnar/fedor talk. i dont think anybody cares about mir/fedor.
|
|
Post #29 5/27/09 9:13:41PM
|
MODesty
Career record: 723-367
Season: 38-12 (#5)
Location: Oklahoma
|
I'm up in the air on this fight. I don't think Mir got lucky at all wrestler are very open to leg locks and knee bars and when Mir got his leg he grabbed on to him like a damn anaconda and most guys wouldn't have been able to pull off that sub but Mir has always been able to pull stuff like that off. I leaning towards Mir by sub again just because he has done it once before and there is a good chance he will do it again. Lesnar has looked better in his past 2 fights but he hasn't fought anyone with the sub skills as good as Mir to top it off Mir has been training with Maia for this fight and bulking up to boot.
_______________________________________
MMA Playground Mod
Telnights
MMAplayground Rules
|
|
Post #30 5/27/09 10:40:10PM
|
|
