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Wand Breaks Down Liddell-Shogun

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“… I told him: Liddell is not Coleman. He is an aggressive guy, has heavy hands and does not give up. If he hits you on the chin, probably a KO. Shogun has a very aggressive style and has to be in very good shape, with much cardio, because he doesn’t stop. He goes with punches, kicks, knees and takedowns. With him there’s no asking to stop. So he has to give good attention to the cardio because his style requires much cardio. He is a very talented guy, but age comes for everyone, including him. Then with time he will realize that nowadays we … must have a higher preparation. The guys are always getting better here. Shogun is a guy who can win the belt soon. He is in the front of the line. I believe in him. I think he’ll have a great performance against Liddell. I would not be surprised if he knocks him out or submits him. If he gets a takedown, I think it ends in the second round by submission.”

Wanderlei Silva has faith that his former Chute Box training partner and good friend, Mauricio “Shogun” Rua, will finish former light heavyweight champion, Chuck Liddell, when the pair collide at UFC 97: “Redemption” from the Bell Centre in Montreal, Quebec, Canada, on April 18. Shogun has battled injuries, as well as serious fatigue, in his two performances inside the Octagon since coming over from Pride FC to much fan fare in late 2007. He has certainly not lived up to the hype as the best 205-pound fighter in the world, losing to Forrest Griffin via submission in his debut and having trouble putting away what should have been a very overmatched Mark Coleman earlier this year. Rua needs to prove that he can hang with the big cats in the UFC. And an impressive win over “Iceman” would do just that.

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Post #1   3/30/09 9:45:52AM   

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I cant wait for this fight!!!!!

If Shogun can comeback with great cardio it might be over for the rest of the LHW division. But i hope this doesnt happen since Chuck is my fav fighter.

I hope this fight turns out like Liddell vs Wanderlei!

Post #2   3/30/09 10:02:19AM   

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I dont see shogun submitting liddell, unless he drops him and finishes him off with a submission....chucks only been subbed once and that was 10 some odd years ago.....his bjj is very underated cuz he nevers uses it, but ive seen him roll, and he's no slouch...i also doubt shogun can get chuck down with his lousy takedowns.....this will be a striking war fer sure

Post #3   3/30/09 11:01:45AM   

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Posted by wiggum

I dont see shogun submitting liddell, unless he drops him and finishes him off with a submission....chucks only been subbed once and that was 10 some odd years ago.....his bjj is very underated cuz he nevers uses it, but ive seen him roll, and he's no slouch...i also doubt shogun can get chuck down with his lousy takedowns.....this will be a striking war fer sure



Shoguns BJJ is also very underrated.
Who else has come close to omaplataing the adcc wizard Ricardo Arona?

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Post #4   3/30/09 11:58:44AM   

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Posted by Pookie


Posted by wiggum

I dont see shogun submitting liddell, unless he drops him and finishes him off with a submission....chucks only been subbed once and that was 10 some odd years ago.....his bjj is very underated cuz he nevers uses it, but ive seen him roll, and he's no slouch...i also doubt shogun can get chuck down with his lousy takedowns.....this will be a striking war fer sure



Shoguns BJJ is also very underrated.
Who else has come close to omaplataing the adcc wizard Ricardo Arona?



arona isnt liddell and mma isnt the adcc

Post #5   3/30/09 2:31:12PM   

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Posted by wiggum


Posted by Pookie


Posted by wiggum

I dont see shogun submitting liddell, unless he drops him and finishes him off with a submission....chucks only been subbed once and that was 10 some odd years ago.....his bjj is very underated cuz he nevers uses it, but ive seen him roll, and he's no slouch...i also doubt shogun can get chuck down with his lousy takedowns.....this will be a striking war fer sure



Shoguns BJJ is also very underrated.
Who else has come close to omaplataing the adcc wizard Ricardo Arona?



arona isnt liddell and mma isnt the adcc



Yeah Arona is one of the best pure grapplers in mma today and the Omaplata happened in mma - i was just referencing his ridiculous jits level by mentioning ADCC

My point was that if it goes on the ground, shogun can sub the liddell, cna he get it there? probably not - but were talking about bjj here not chucks takedown defense.

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Post #6   3/30/09 3:13:29PM   

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i got Shogun, since i got Shogun im going to assume he will have good cardio...thats the big factor standings in Shogun's way of climbing back to the top

Post #7   3/30/09 7:37:44PM   

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HERES A FUN FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

chuck has never lost to a foreigner



WAR chuck

Post #8   3/31/09 1:46:27AM   

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Posted by Pookie


Posted by wiggum


Posted by Pookie


Posted by wiggum

I dont see shogun submitting liddell, unless he drops him and finishes him off with a submission....chucks only been subbed once and that was 10 some odd years ago.....his bjj is very underated cuz he nevers uses it, but ive seen him roll, and he's no slouch...i also doubt shogun can get chuck down with his lousy takedowns.....this will be a striking war fer sure



Shoguns BJJ is also very underrated.
Who else has come close to omaplataing the adcc wizard Ricardo Arona?



arona isnt liddell and mma isnt the adcc



Yeah Arona is one of the best pure grapplers in mma today and the Omaplata happened in mma - i was just referencing his ridiculous jits level by mentioning ADCC

My point was that if it goes on the ground, shogun can sub the liddell, cna he get it there? probably not - but were talking about bjj here not chucks takedown defense.


I think you missed the point, if taking chuck down and subbing him is the game plan its got to be the worst strategy you can have against Chuck, so sure his BJJ is better than Chucks regardless NOBODY in the UFC has been able to take chuck to the ground long enough to even work BJJ and so in the context of this fight Chucks TDD is very Important and no shogun cant sub Liddell for the simple fact that taking him down is extremely difficult but keeping him there is impossible. Good wrestling = Anti Jiu-Jitsu

I think if shogun goes in and tries to take it to the ground he more than likely is going to gas himself out, Liddell is a good counter puncher and IF shogun has to change up his strategy mid fight because he cant take chuck down he better have the cardio to play the striking game or chuck will pick him apart.

Im baffled that shogun thinks he needs to take chuck down to win..?.. but I know one thing, this strategy only works in Liddell's favor.

Last edited 3/31/09 7:42AM server time by slapshot
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Post #9   3/31/09 7:03:16AM   

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Posted by slapshot


Posted by Pookie


Posted by wiggum


Posted by Pookie


Posted by wiggum

I dont see shogun submitting liddell, unless he drops him and finishes him off with a submission....chucks only been subbed once and that was 10 some odd years ago.....his bjj is very underated cuz he nevers uses it, but ive seen him roll, and he's no slouch...i also doubt shogun can get chuck down with his lousy takedowns.....this will be a striking war fer sure



Shoguns BJJ is also very underrated.
Who else has come close to omaplataing the adcc wizard Ricardo Arona?



arona isnt liddell and mma isnt the adcc



Yeah Arona is one of the best pure grapplers in mma today and the Omaplata happened in mma - i was just referencing his ridiculous jits level by mentioning ADCC

My point was that if it goes on the ground, shogun can sub the liddell, cna he get it there? probably not - but were talking about bjj here not chucks takedown defense.




I think you missed the point, if taking chuck down and subbing him is the game plan its got to be the worst strategy you can have against Chuck, so sure his BJJ is better than Chucks regardless NOBODY in the UFC has been able to take chuck to the ground long enough to even work BJJ and so in the context of this fight Chucks TDD is very Important and no shogun cant sub Liddell for the simple fact that taking him down is extremely difficult but keeping him there is impossible. Good wrestling = Anti Jiu-Jitsu



First of all "Nobody in the UFC has been able to work BJJ on Chuck" Remember a guy named Jeremy Horn? Second of all your "good wrestling = the anti jiu jitsu" is very subjective based on styles/auxilary styles and matchups. Actually it can actually be turned around as well, and say good jiu jitsu nullifies a good wrestler. Aoki and Maia are the best examples against your theory but again it depends on certain variables not just one or two aspects.

Last edited 3/31/09 11:30AM server time by EvenFlow
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Post #10   3/31/09 11:28:32AM   

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Posted by slapshot


Posted by Pookie


Posted by wiggum


Posted by Pookie


Posted by wiggum

I dont see shogun submitting liddell, unless he drops him and finishes him off with a submission....chucks only been subbed once and that was 10 some odd years ago.....his bjj is very underated cuz he nevers uses it, but ive seen him roll, and he's no slouch...i also doubt shogun can get chuck down with his lousy takedowns.....this will be a striking war fer sure



Shoguns BJJ is also very underrated.
Who else has come close to omaplataing the adcc wizard Ricardo Arona?



arona isnt liddell and mma isnt the adcc



Yeah Arona is one of the best pure grapplers in mma today and the Omaplata happened in mma - i was just referencing his ridiculous jits level by mentioning ADCC

My point was that if it goes on the ground, shogun can sub the liddell, cna he get it there? probably not - but were talking about bjj here not chucks takedown defense.


I think you missed the point, if taking chuck down and subbing him is the game plan its got to be the worst strategy you can have against Chuck, so sure his BJJ is better than Chucks regardless NOBODY in the UFC has been able to take chuck to the ground long enough to even work BJJ and so in the context of this fight Chucks TDD is very Important and no shogun cant sub Liddell for the simple fact that taking him down is extremely difficult but keeping him there is impossible. Good wrestling = Anti Jiu-Jitsu

I think if shogun goes in and tries to take it to the ground he more than likely is going to gas himself out, Liddell is a good counter puncher and IF shogun has to change up his strategy mid fight because he cant take chuck down he better have the cardio to play the striking game or chuck will pick him apart.

Im baffled that shogun thinks he needs to take chuck down to win..?.. but I know one thing, this strategy only works in Liddell's favor.



Yea i think you totally missed my point.

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Post #11   3/31/09 12:24:36PM   

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It has been a long time since Chuck was able to take someone down, and because of that, this myth that Chuck "can't be taken down" has grown. I think it's actually a good gameplan to eventually look for the takedown after mixing it up with some strikes.

Shogun could possibly create some openings for the takedown by forcing Chuck to check some leg kicks, then feint a low kick, and shoot when he raises his leg. Vice versa, he can get into Chuck's head that he's looking for the takedown in this fight, and fake some shots, and batter a flatfooted Chuck.

Shogun seems to get the "catch" easilly enough, but he seems to have a difficult time finishing the submission. I think Shogun has the advantage on the ground, but I'm not sure he can finish there.

Post #12   3/31/09 3:07:18PM   

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Posted by EvenFlow


First of all "Nobody in the UFC has been able to work BJJ on Chuck" Remember a guy named Jeremy Horn? Second of all your "good wrestling = the anti jiu jitsu" is very subjective based on styles/auxilary styles and matchups. Actually it can actually be turned around as well, and say good jiu jitsu nullifies a good wrestler. Aoki and Maia are the best examples against your theory but again it depends on certain variables not just one or two aspects.



I do remember Horn and I also remember that fight was not in the UFC and is older than two of my three children so try again. Time has shown wrestlers have the advantage over submission fighters IMO.

More like the only examples and two of the best submission guys out there, I never claimed all you need to do was learn to wrestle and you can take any BJJ guy out.
LOL certain variables? ROFL what doesn't depend on variables? I just think that point is lost as I was talking in general, I could point to the GSP Penn fight if I wanted to get specific, but hay point out extreme cases and portray them as the norm if you must Rua still cant sub Chuck if he cant take him down ( and he cant ) and Chucks TTD is probably the best in the UFC and it all hinges off his wrestling.




Posted by Wolfenstein

It has been a long time since Chuck was able to take someone down, and because of that, this myth that Chuck "can't be taken down" has grown. I think it's actually a good gameplan to eventually look for the takedown after mixing it up with some strikes.

Shogun could possibly create some openings for the takedown by forcing Chuck to check some leg kicks, then feint a low kick, and shoot when he raises his leg. Vice versa, he can get into Chuck's head that he's looking for the takedown in this fight, and fake some shots, and batter a flatfooted Chuck.

Shogun seems to get the "catch" easilly enough, but he seems to have a difficult time finishing the submission. I think Shogun has the advantage on the ground, but I'm not sure he can finish there.



Dude Chuck took wandy down and that was not long ago at all, Chuck rarely attempts to take people down that doesn't mean he cant. I hope Rua dose test out that strategy because Id like to see Chuck win.

Like I said its not just that he is hard to take down, its that you cant keep him there so you just waisted a lot of time and energy, unless you are just trying to out point him and even then if you gas then you're in danger of getting KO'd.

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Post #13   3/31/09 5:43:40PM   

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This is a hugely tough fight for me to pick. The New Shogun is not going to be able to win this standing and is going to have a hell of a time taking Chuck down. Hell even getting in to grab or trap em against a wall will be hard enough. The old Shogun would beat the crap outta this Chuck.

I don't believe Shogun's real game plan is to take Chuck down. I earnestly believe that he plans on out striking Chuck with his in your face old aggressive style. and if that leads to Chuck dropping and Shogun getting the opportunity to submit or his striking leads to a dazed Chuck for an easy takedown so be it.

I got Shogun getting KO'd in the 2nd. Chuck loves backing up, and puts out very little energy. Shogun does the complete opposite and the more he exposes himself the more Chucks gonna put the hurt on. I want Shogun to win really badly, but I just don't see it happening. (although I do think he's a great real money bet because if Shogun stepped up his training this could be nice, I just hope he doesn't go the way of Crocop)

Post #14   4/1/09 12:43:08AM   

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Posted by slapshot


Posted by EvenFlow


First of all "Nobody in the UFC has been able to work BJJ on Chuck" Remember a guy named Jeremy Horn? Second of all your "good wrestling = the anti jiu jitsu" is very subjective based on styles/auxilary styles and matchups. Actually it can actually be turned around as well, and say good jiu jitsu nullifies a good wrestler. Aoki and Maia are the best examples against your theory but again it depends on certain variables not just one or two aspects.



I do remember Horn and I also remember that fight was not in the UFC and is older than two of my three children so try again. Time has shown wrestlers have the advantage over submission fighters IMO.

More like the only examples and two of the best submission guys out there, I never claimed all you need to do was learn to wrestle and you can take any BJJ guy out.
LOL certain variables? ROFL what doesn't depend on variables? I just think that point is lost as I was talking in general, I could point to the GSP Penn fight if I wanted to get specific, but hay point out extreme cases and portray them as the norm if you must Rua still cant sub Chuck if he cant take him down ( and he cant ) and Chucks TTD is probably the best in the UFC and it all hinges off his wrestling.



1) Jeremy Horn vs Chuck Liddell 1 happened at UFC 19....you fail again.
2) What does your "childrens" age have to do with anything? lol.
3) You did say wrestling = anti jiu jitsu.
4) Variables, its a concept that 2 fighters with there own styles and auxilary styles make up variables of the fight, thus styles make fights.
5) Aoki and Maia are not the only examples, I've seen plenty of wrestlers fall to jiu jitsu.
6) Theres a reason you get so much bad feedback slappy.

Last edited 4/1/09 3:12PM server time by EvenFlow
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Post #15   4/1/09 2:00:39PM   
 
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