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Heaviest Hands

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JBatch

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No order really.

Anderson SIlva
Shane Carwin
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Chuck Liddell
Andre Arlovski
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Post #31   3/17/09 2:31:37PM   

Svartorm

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Posted by AchillesHeel

I'm not sure I get this. I'm pretty sure this isn't true in baseball, for example. The total power generated when the bat hits the ball comes from striding into the pitch and twisting your body (which is why hitters with a violent swing tend to incur lower-back injuries rather than arm injuries, for instance). It isn't that the position you achieve from the stride and the twist is better for hitting, it's that the energy generated by the motion is significant.



I probably should have mentioned I was talking about straight punches in that blurb, as a hook and overhand does take power from the twist of the hip. The punch Carwin hit with was a right straight, which has no orbit on it and wouldn't require any hip movement, other than the hips and feet being set to launch the strike properly.

That might be true for baseball, but thats because you're swinging a bat in a tremendous orbit. You can't compare that to a hand strike because of the orbit of the bat, but you COULD compare it to a rear leg roundhouse, in which your hip movement is important.

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Post #32   3/17/09 3:03:44PM   

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Post #33   3/17/09 3:07:05PM   

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Posted by Svartorm

Guys, this Carwin "hits without twisting" thing is driving me crazy. Its not the act of twisting the hips that puts power into a strike. Its just the way you set your hips to impact. If you twist your hips and line yourself up for a strike, it hits exactly as hard as if you already had your hips in line and threw the strike. The only exceptions to this are a few front hand strikes that you almost never see in MMA. Petrizelli KOing Kimbo Slice with the push kick/jab combo is about the only mainstream example I can think of.



I don't get this, either Every single instructor I've ever had from the joes to the pros has always stressed the importance of twisting your hips with a strike.

I understand where you're going with the hooks and leg kicks, but I just don't see how it doesn't apply to a straight right hand? It's transfer of energy.

I mean, even if you stand right in front of a punching bag and punch without twisting your hips and then punch with twisting your hips you can feel the difference.

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Post #34   3/17/09 3:43:45PM   

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My striking style comes from American Kempo and bare-knuckle boxing, so it might be a bit different, but I always learned it was your lower body structure that made your straight punches hit hard, not any kind of twisting of the hips.

Honestly try this if you have a heavy bag around. Square yourself up perfectly for a straight and throw it a few times, and then throw it where you twist your hips with the strike. I tried it just a moment ago and could see no difference in the way the strike landed.

And for the record, Lesnars form is absolutely awful on the punch. His rear foot leaves the ground and was about a foot and a half too far back to begin with. Thats why I said he'd kill people if he learned how to hit properly, because he broke HHs face with a sloppy punch.

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Post #35   3/17/09 3:55:31PM   

Wolfenstein

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You have me a little confused Svartorm. It feels awkward to throw a right straight without twisting your hips. Your right straight should be your most powerful punch (assuming you're a righty). My first instructor, when I was in the baby stages said At the end of the punch, your rear heal should be slightly turned out. This shows that you've properly tourqued your hips.

I don't know, maybe this is just a part of American Kempo's style as the style seems to focus on rapid-fire striking. I know because I had a best friend in High School who used to go to a place called Nick Cerio's Kempo Karate, and that kid had fast hands. So maybe this is just substituting speed for power.

Post #36   3/17/09 4:14:34PM   

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Posted by Svartorm

My striking style comes from American Kempo and bare-knuckle boxing, so it might be a bit different, but I always learned it was your lower body structure that made your straight punches hit hard, not any kind of twisting of the hips.

Honestly try this if you have a heavy bag around. Square yourself up perfectly for a straight and throw it a few times, and then throw it where you twist your hips with the strike. I tried it just a moment ago and could see no difference in the way the strike landed.

And for the record, Lesnars form is absolutely awful on the punch. His rear foot leaves the ground and was about a foot and a half too far back to begin with. Thats why I said he'd kill people if he learned how to hit properly, because he broke HHs face with a sloppy punch.



Hmm, maybe we just have a lot different style, then. I've studied Kenpo in the past (8 years back with AKKA-where I was at for 2 1/2 years) and my instructor there always said to twist the hips, but most of the stuff I've done now is Kickboxing and MT in which they will always tell you to twist the hips. I'm assuming Mike Winklejohn is the go-to guy for coaching Shane Carwin in strikes, and Mike Winklejohn's background is actually through AKKA under Bill Packer's tutelage which lead him to several Thailand MT titles and an ISKA championship. In summary- I'd assume Shane Carwin is being taught to twist his hips, and for him to deliver punches with power like he does without twisting his hips tells me something.

I've met and talked with both Mike Winklejohn and Bill Packer, and I know they'd say to twist the hips, but then again.. Bill Packer was a boxer turned Kenpo artist


With the punching bag thing I more than definitely notice a difference in my strikes.. but again, we have a lot different backgrounds. Maybe you know something that I don't, or maybe I know something you don't. Or maybe both.

Post #37   3/17/09 4:23:14PM   

AchillesHeel

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Posted by Svartorm


Posted by AchillesHeel

I'm not sure I get this. I'm pretty sure this isn't true in baseball, for example. The total power generated when the bat hits the ball comes from striding into the pitch and twisting your body (which is why hitters with a violent swing tend to incur lower-back injuries rather than arm injuries, for instance). It isn't that the position you achieve from the stride and the twist is better for hitting, it's that the energy generated by the motion is significant.



I probably should have mentioned I was talking about straight punches in that blurb, as a hook and overhand does take power from the twist of the hip. The punch Carwin hit with was a right straight, which has no orbit on it and wouldn't require any hip movement, other than the hips and feet being set to launch the strike properly.

That might be true for baseball, but thats because you're swinging a bat in a tremendous orbit. You can't compare that to a hand strike because of the orbit of the bat, but you COULD compare it to a rear leg roundhouse, in which your hip movement is important.


Actually, you don't swing a bat in a tremendous orbit. That what guys mean when they say something like "stay inside the ball." Look at David Ortiz's swing, he keeps his hands in close to his body. And it's the inside pitch that he usually murders, because the smaller stroke allows him an extra bazillionth of a second to react and take his shot, and he can extend further on the follow through (the follow through being another important part of striding into the pitch and rotating your hips).

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Post #38   3/17/09 4:44:24PM   

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I wish I could post video to show you guys what I'm talking about, but I don't have the capacity to do so. I fight strong hand forward, which is also an American Kempo thing, so I throw a left straight with my weak hand. When I finish throwing it, I'm on the ball of my foot with my toes pointed at my target, and my lead foot was already pointed in that direction. If I start from that position and throw a punch, although the stance is unnatural, it hits just as hard as when I turn into that position during the punch. The power comes from the stance, in that the power off my back foot travels up my body and into my extended arm, so the stucture of my punch is aided by the floor itself.

Luiz Cane throws a left straight very similar to myself, so if you watch some of his fights, you might get a better angle on it.

As for the bat, the bat most assuredly moves in a "tremendous" orbit, compared to the way your arm can move with power. The ball is connecting at a point your arm basically couldn't contact with any real power, so theres a lot of orbit in the strike. Doesn't the end of a bat move at something like 180 mph?


Edit: If you pop in UFC 89 and watch Cane vs. Sokoudjou, at 2:12 of the first round, theres a very good angle of him throwing his left straight. Aside from hand position, that exactly how I throw mine. If you put yourself into the position he throws his punch from, and throw it stationary, you should get the same impact you would if you threw it with the full motion. It feels like its just an arm punch, being as you're only using your upper body when you start from that position, but you impact the same because your base is set to deliver impact along that arm. Give it a shot.

Last edited 3/17/09 9:58PM server time by svartorm
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Post #39   3/17/09 6:11:19PM   

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Post #40   3/19/09 10:42:06PM   

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Post #41   3/20/09 12:55:08AM   

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Posted by Saginawsfinest

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how did Matt Hughes get in your list? hes never KOed anyone and from what remember hes never even knocked anyone goofy before...

Post #42   3/20/09 3:50:43AM   

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Posted by Svartorm

I wish I could post video to show you guys what I'm talking about, but I don't have the capacity to do so. I fight strong hand forward, which is also an American Kempo thing, so I throw a left straight with my weak hand. When I finish throwing it, I'm on the ball of my foot with my toes pointed at my target, and my lead foot was already pointed in that direction. If I start from that position and throw a punch, although the stance is unnatural, it hits just as hard as when I turn into that position during the punch. The power comes from the stance, in that the power off my back foot travels up my body and into my extended arm, so the stucture of my punch is aided by the floor itself.

Luiz Cane throws a left straight very similar to myself, so if you watch some of his fights, you might get a better angle on it.

As for the bat, the bat most assuredly moves in a "tremendous" orbit, compared to the way your arm can move with power. The ball is connecting at a point your arm basically couldn't contact with any real power, so theres a lot of orbit in the strike. Doesn't the end of a bat move at something like 180 mph?


Edit: If you pop in UFC 89 and watch Cane vs. Sokoudjou, at 2:12 of the first round, theres a very good angle of him throwing his left straight. Aside from hand position, that exactly how I throw mine. If you put yourself into the position he throws his punch from, and throw it stationary, you should get the same impact you would if you threw it with the full motion. It feels like its just an arm punch, being as you're only using your upper body when you start from that position, but you impact the same because your base is set to deliver impact along that arm. Give it a shot.



I once made Svartorms head explode just by grabbing his pinkie and saying Skadush! Anyway, jokes aside Tank and Rizzo had the heaviest hands I ever saw in mma.

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Post #43   3/20/09 7:02:51AM   
 
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