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Affliction: "Winner of Barnett/Yvle will face winner of Fedor/Arlovski

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NE-1

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Posted by Aaronno9

If Josh looses to Yvle ill be gutted now. This is a fighting ive been wanting to see since I can remember. If fedor overcomes Andrei and Josh you cant even make an argument against having him number 1 p4p imo.




Eh..... My argument would be that he hasn't beaten anyone from a different weight class recently to say he is the best p4p. If GSP dominates BJ or vice versa that makes a pretty strong case. If Anderson Silva beat someone on the p4p list in a dominant fashion that would make a strong case.



Unfortunately for Fedor the last time he fought out of weight class was against Choi and Lindland. I think to be top of the p4p you should have current wins over top competition in the p4p rankings. Is Barnett top 10? No unfortunately not. That leaves Nogueira (yes I know Fedor has beaten him twice) it's been a while since they've fought though (not suggesting the outcome would be any different). I need something more concrete and concistant to say undoubtedly the best p4p over BJ, GSP, and Anderson.

Post #16   12/18/08 7:28:37PM   

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Posted by NE-1


Posted by Aaronno9

If Josh looses to Yvle ill be gutted now. This is a fighting ive been wanting to see since I can remember. If fedor overcomes Andrei and Josh you cant even make an argument against having him number 1 p4p imo.




Eh..... My argument would be that he hasn't beaten anyone from a different weight class recently to say he is the best p4p. If GSP dominates BJ or vice versa that makes a pretty strong case. If Anderson Silva beat someone on the p4p list in a dominant fashion that would make a strong case.



Unfortunately for Fedor the last time he fought out of weight class was against Choi and Lindland. I think to be top of the p4p you should have current wins over top competition in the p4p rankings. Is Barnett top 10? No unfortunately not. That leaves Nogueira (yes I know Fedor has beaten him twice) it's been a while since they've fought though (not suggesting the outcome would be any different). I need something more concrete and concistant to say undoubtedly the best p4p over BJ, GSP, and Anderson.



How can you say Barnett isn't a top p4p fighter? That is just absurd. A year ago you may have had an argument having not fought at all in 2007, but he has been active in 2008 with 3 fights, two against legit competition. Besides, I don't see how you can advance in rank in p4p rankings by beating other p4p fighters when its very likely that all the fighters around you are out of your weight class. Why do fighters have to fight others outside of their own proven weight class just to say they are better? This is the reason why we have a p4p ranking system in the first place, in order to come up with an estimate about who the best fighters are since most of them will never meet in actual competition.

If Fedor beats Arlovski and Barnett (or Yvel) convincingly, there should be little doubt in anyone's mind that Fedor is the p4p best, and this is coming from a guy who has had Fedor ranked consistently in third place or so for the past year.

Post #17   12/18/08 7:52:20PM   

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plus, heavyweights can range anywhere from 225-265+ so the weight difference is much different than the other weight classes

Post #18   12/18/08 8:22:13PM   

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So Fedor vs. Barnett in awhile, alright.

Post #19   12/18/08 8:24:45PM   

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Posted by warglory


Posted by NE-1


Posted by Aaronno9

If Josh looses to Yvle ill be gutted now. This is a fighting ive been wanting to see since I can remember. If fedor overcomes Andrei and Josh you cant even make an argument against having him number 1 p4p imo.




Eh..... My argument would be that he hasn't beaten anyone from a different weight class recently to say he is the best p4p. If GSP dominates BJ or vice versa that makes a pretty strong case. If Anderson Silva beat someone on the p4p list in a dominant fashion that would make a strong case.



Unfortunately for Fedor the last time he fought out of weight class was against Choi and Lindland. I think to be top of the p4p you should have current wins over top competition in the p4p rankings. Is Barnett top 10? No unfortunately not. That leaves Nogueira (yes I know Fedor has beaten him twice) it's been a while since they've fought though (not suggesting the outcome would be any different). I need something more concrete and concistant to say undoubtedly the best p4p over BJ, GSP, and Anderson.



How can you say Barnett isn't a top p4p fighter? That is just absurd. A year ago you may have had an argument having not fought at all in 2007, but he has been active in 2008 with 3 fights, two against legit competition. Besides, I don't see how you can advance in rank in p4p rankings by beating other p4p fighters when its very likely that all the fighters around you are out of your weight class. Why do fighters have to fight others outside of their own proven weight class just to say they are better? This is the reason why we have a p4p ranking system in the first place, in order to come up with an estimate about who the best fighters are since most of them will never meet in actual competition.

If Fedor beats Arlovski and Barnett (or Yvel) convincingly, there should be little doubt in anyone's mind that Fedor is the p4p best, and this is coming from a guy who has had Fedor ranked consistently in third place or so for the past year.



Where is barnett ranked top 10 p4p?? Also I don't expect Fedor to fight GSP or BJ Penn. I seem to recall however, Cro Cop fighting Wanderlei. Both top 10 p4p at the time. Im just saying that a recent win over a top 10 p4p fighter would say much more than a win over Barnett and Arlovski. Don't get me wrong that's very impressive as both fighters are amazing and very skilled, but GSP vs Penn i think makes for much more of a case for best P4P as both fighters are in just about everyones p4p top 4. I just don't think it makes a case of being undeniably the best p4p there is.

Post #20   12/18/08 8:40:15PM   

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Posted by Aaronno9

If fedor overcomes Andrei and Josh you cant even make an argument against having him number 1 p4p imo.




Too many pounds.

Post #21   12/18/08 8:43:40PM   

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Posted by Aaronno9

If fedor overcomes Andrei and Josh you cant even make an argument against having him number 1 p4p imo.



I agree, but there's always an argument and there always will be when it comes to the best p4p, because you just can't quantify what the result would be with the disparity in weight. It's an inexact science. The best you can hope for is to be the best in your weight class.

What a miracle story it would be if Gilbert were to come back from relative obscurity and beat Josh and Fedor back to back. Wow that would be crazy.

Should be an easy road for Josh to Fedor (a fight Josh has turned down several times). You never know though, when you're facing a dangerous opponent like Gilbert that can KO anyone at anytime, there's always a risk. Take Takanori Gomi for example. He was getting fed major underdogs, and one of those dogs bit him (Sergey Golyaev).

Post #22   12/18/08 9:09:59PM   

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Posted by NE-1


Posted by Aaronno9

If Josh looses to Yvle ill be gutted now. This is a fighting ive been wanting to see since I can remember. If fedor overcomes Andrei and Josh you cant even make an argument against having him number 1 p4p imo.




Eh..... My argument would be that he hasn't beaten anyone from a different weight class recently to say he is the best p4p. If GSP dominates BJ or vice versa that makes a pretty strong case. If Anderson Silva beat someone on the p4p list in a dominant fashion that would make a strong case.



Unfortunately for Fedor the last time he fought out of weight class was against Choi and Lindland. I think to be top of the p4p you should have current wins over top competition in the p4p rankings. Is Barnett top 10? No unfortunately not. That leaves Nogueira (yes I know Fedor has beaten him twice) it's been a while since they've fought though (not suggesting the outcome would be any different). I need something more concrete and concistant to say undoubtedly the best p4p over BJ, GSP, and Anderson.



How about the fact that Fedor fights guys who outweigh him by upwards of 60 pounds, fights guys who have a foot height advantage over him and massive reach advantages without ever suffering a legitimate defeat, something that absolutely none of the other people ranked on the p4p list can claim. Heavyweights automatically fight "out of weight class" because their ceiling is 3 times higher than any other weight class. Everyone else gets the protection of never being outweighed by more than 5-10 pounds.

Last edited 12/18/08 9:24PM server time by aether
Edit note/reason: n/a

Post #23   12/18/08 9:22:39PM   

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Posted by Aether


Posted by NE-1


Posted by Aaronno9

If Josh looses to Yvle ill be gutted now. This is a fighting ive been wanting to see since I can remember. If fedor overcomes Andrei and Josh you cant even make an argument against having him number 1 p4p imo.




Eh..... My argument would be that he hasn't beaten anyone from a different weight class recently to say he is the best p4p. If GSP dominates BJ or vice versa that makes a pretty strong case. If Anderson Silva beat someone on the p4p list in a dominant fashion that would make a strong case.



Unfortunately for Fedor the last time he fought out of weight class was against Choi and Lindland. I think to be top of the p4p you should have current wins over top competition in the p4p rankings. Is Barnett top 10? No unfortunately not. That leaves Nogueira (yes I know Fedor has beaten him twice) it's been a while since they've fought though (not suggesting the outcome would be any different). I need something more concrete and concistant to say undoubtedly the best p4p over BJ, GSP, and Anderson.



How about the fact that Fedor fights guys who outweigh him by upwards of 60 pounds, fights guys who have a foot height advantage over him and massive reach advantages without ever suffering a legitimate defeat, something that absolutely none of the other people ranked on the p4p list can claim. Heavyweights automatically fight "out of weight class" because their ceiling is 3 times higher than any other weight class. Everyone else gets the protection of never being outweighed by more than 5-10 pounds.



Are you trying to legitimize Fedors fight against Choi?? And please don't use that out of weight class nonsense. I guess that should be a legit excuse for losing to a guy who is bigger than you when you're a HW. As the early UFC's have shown anyone with a little technique is capable of defeating a larger less skilled fighter.

Post #24   12/18/08 9:53:19PM   

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choi isn't even close to the only guy fedor has fought with massive weight, height and reach advantages. Mark Hunt, Semmy Schilt, Tim Sylvia, and Choi all had huge advantages in at least one department if not all three. Don't even try to tell me that Semmy Schilt and Mark Hunt are not legitimate competition. Choi is also far more dangerous than people give him credit for.

Nonsense? Are you kidding me? That's the ENTIRE REASON weight classes exist!!! Of course size makes a difference. Obviously a skilled smaller fighter will beat an unskilled larger fighter most of the time, but at the top of the food chain size makes a massive difference. Why the hell do we even have weight classes if it doesn't matter? Are you going to tell me that Anderson Silva would be equally as dominant fighting people who outweigh him by 60 pounds or who are 7 feet tall?

It makes no sense to me to credit anderson or bj with fighting "outside of their weight class" when they are actually putting on weight and fighting people who are relatively the same size as them whereas a small heavyweight like fedor regularly faces people much larger than themselves and a weight difference of 50-60 pounds is suddenly negligible? So a 170 pound BJ Penn fighting in the 170 pound weightclass is more impressive than the 230 pound fedor dominating the 265 pound weightclass? If someone can beat a person who has large physical advantages over them it's strong evidence that they would be even more dominant against a person without those advantages.

I'm sure that if a fight was set up between anderson and Fedor at their natural weights you wouldn't argue that size would be a huge disadvantage for anderson, right?

Post #25   12/18/08 10:09:17PM   

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I can't believe you tried to use the first UFCs as an example of how size doesn't matter in a fight. There was a dude with one boxing glove taped to his hand and a 400 pound sumo wrestler, of course a BJJ black belt is going to win in a scenario like that. Not even remotely comparable to modern MMA.

Post #26   12/18/08 10:13:06PM   

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Posted by Aether

I can't believe you tried to use the first UFCs as an example of how size doesn't matter in a fight. There was a dude with one boxing glove taped to his hand and a 400 pound sumo wrestler, of course a BJJ black belt is going to win in a scenario like that. Not even remotely comparable to modern MMA.



I was more referring to Kimo and Royce gracie, but hey you didn't recall that. You need to read the post again your agrument is nonsense about Fedor being a small HW, he's a HW regardless if he's the smallest or the biggest. So yes in that aspect it is nonsense that we should say Fedor is better because he is one of the smaller HW.

On another note Chois isn't Fedor. So your comparison of Anderson and Fedor fighting at natural weight is nullified. The bottom line here is I WILL NOT THINK FEDOR IS UNDISPUTEDLY, UNDENIABLY, UNQUESTIONABLY the #1 P4P fighter with a win over AA and Barnett.

Post #27   12/18/08 11:23:42PM   

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One last thing. I've been training in BJJ for a year, MMA for 8 months, and have a couple years of Tae Kwon Doe under my belt from when I was 8 to 12 yrs old. I weigh 205 and stand 6 ft 1. If I fought Miguel Torres and he Ko'd me would it fu**in matter?? NOOOOO. I'm not that good there's nothing to substantiate me. Come on man, but because im bigger than torres we should make a huge deal?? I don't wanna discuss this anymore. Maybe tomorrow.

Post #28   12/18/08 11:42:45PM   

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You're missing the point. You are not in the UFC, there's a reason for that. You can't compare an unskilled fighter to a skilled fighter. In leagues like the UFC, Affliction, the old PRIDE, the majority of the fighters were highly skilled, and when everyone is highly skilled smaller differences like size become far more important. Size doesn't matter in a fight between you and Miguel Torres because you're not nearly as good a fighter as he is. Size makes a massive difference when it's Forrest Griffin against Miguel Torres because they're both world class fighters, so the bigger world class fighter has a large advantage because there's very little difference in their overall ability.

It's foolish to compare Kimo or yourself to the guys competing at the top of the food chain today. Like I already stated, if the big guy is not skilled his size isn't going to help him much, but if both people are around the same skill level, size makes a big difference.

You're essentially saying that weight classes are completely unnecessary because size is not an issue in any fight.

That is completely ludicrous.

Post #29   12/19/08 12:23:46AM   

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None of them can beat Fedor

Post #30   12/19/08 8:47:45AM   
 
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