ufc 1 styles |
| Posted By |
Message |
wiggum
Standup Guy
| 1 |  |  |
1 |
Career record: 170-80
Season: 49-21 (#129)
Location: Southwest
|
does anybody know why there were no judo players represented in the first ufc?....i know that a lot of styles and subgroups of styles were left out...but the mainstays of martial arts (karate kickboxing boxing wrestling ju jitsu) were all represented including shootfigthing and sumo except judo....judo traditionally, presently, and at the time was a popular martial art and didnt show up until over the next few ufcs.....now i know alot has been made over the years that the first tournament was organized to showcase gracie ju jitsu to the world....and a judo player, given that those styles are essentially cousins, could throw a wrench into those plans....so i would think that would be the reason for the missing of judo....does anybody else have any theorys or thoughts on the matter?
|
|
Post #1 8/26/08 12:54:41PM
|
|
|
seanfu
In Full Mount
Career record: 90-55
Season: 31-19 (#5037)
Location: Fort Wayne IN
|
I wouldn't agree with that. As far as I know, which isn't far, a lot of the people who represented the styles were just backyard brawlers with false backgrounds and weren't really qualified.
Most of the guys styles were legit, but any kind of ground fighter would have been falsified. They would lie about records and guys would have 6 months of experiance in taekwondo or something.
The kickboxers I think were real but not top guys obviously, art jimmerman, the boxer, was a journeyman, Kenny is the only threat in the picture.
The point is it would've been easy to get a bar brawler and call him a judoken.
If they had wanted to do it right the fighters would have been legit and they would've included Catch wrestling, Sambo, and Judo. All of which had a shot at winning.
|
|
Post #2 8/26/08 2:05:02PM
|
wiggum
Standup Guy
| 1 | | |
1 |
Career record: 170-80
Season: 49-21 (#129)
Location: Southwest
|
none of the origianl fighters were bar brawlers....they were all legit competitors in theyre respective sports....the only reason that they got art jimmerson types instead of mike tyson types is the money factor
|
|
Post #3 8/26/08 2:25:05PM
|
fullerene
MMA Sensei
Career record: 184-92
Season: 42-28 (#1511)
Location:
|
Posted by wiggum
none of the origianl fighters were bar brawlers....they were all legit competitors in theyre respective sports....the only reason that they got art jimmerson types instead of mike tyson types is the money factor
This is basically true. Pat Smith, for example, was a guy who won the Savake (sp?) challenge about the same time and he had a few pro boxing wins under his belt at the time they fought.
I think the common answer for why there were no judo players was that the Gracies wanted to make themselves look good and I can't say that might not be part of the reason, although there would be as much reason to believe that Ken Shamrock, or maybe even a 400 pound sumo, would be a tough guy for Royce to submit. Another part of the equation may be that judo is not a style that is seen in a lot of movies and (quite falsely) probably didn't have the reputation that karate, kickboxing, etc. had at the time. Another issue is that it is closer to BJJ than the other styles and the fight was being promoted as a style-vs-style match which I think makes it fair to not muddy the waters with a fighter who was going to have a similar strategy and skillset to Royce.
I think there is a myth that Judo guys were intentionally avoided by the Gracies in the early days. Remco Pardoel, who was both a judoka and wieghed 260 pounds, was part of UFC II and Renzo fought his first U.S. match against an Olympic judo medalist in Ben Spikjers shortly after that. Both of these guys were beaten relatively easily.
|
|
Post #4 8/26/08 3:04:43PM
|
Laying down the beats
Career record: 192-150
Season: 37-33 (#1810)
Location: Canada
|
Posted by fullerene
I think there is a myth that Judo guys were intentionally avoided by the Gracies in the early days. Remco Pardoel, who was both a judoka and wieghed 260 pounds, was part of UFC II and Renzo fought his first U.S. match against an Olympic judo medalist in Ben Spikjers shortly after that. Both of these guys were beaten relatively easily.
I agree. In the early days judoka were dispatched pretty easily, with the exception of Remco who really only lost to UFC champions (when he fought in the UFC). There are a lot of rules and aspects of competitive judo that work against you in MMA, that they were not used to.
There was also Christophe Leininger in UFC 3 that was beat by Ken Shamrock. Christophe Leininger is a National level judo player and is 3-4 in MMA (now). .
Now, Judo players have mixed success in MMA. You've got some Olympic champion level judoka that are good and some that are ok (in MMA). You've got some national and world level judo players that are also good and ok. All in all at this point, I think judo's success in mma is about as mixed bag as any other style.
Here is a web site people might find interesting. However, it needs to be updated.
Judo in MMA
Last edited 8/26/08 3:36PM by Rush
Edit note/reason: n/a
_______________________________________
MMA Playground Ninja Moderator - Be cool and follow forum conduct or you'll be banned and all you will see is a puff of smoke. Members banned - 31, IPs banned - 19
|
|
Post #5 8/26/08 3:33:15PM
|
Laying down the beats
Career record: 192-150
Season: 37-33 (#1810)
Location: Canada
|
If you look at the records (just form google searches)here are the summaries
Ken Shamrock - Had 3 pancrase wins (out of 3 fights) under his belt when he went into UFC 1
Jimmerson was the 1983 National Golden Gloves Middleweight champion. His boxing record is 51-18, but I don't how many of those were pre-UFC 1. He retired in 2002 from boxing and was 30 when he was in the UFC.
Pat Smith - only thing I found about him was that he is a registered sex offender. Didn't see that one. lol
Telia Tuli was 57-27-14 in sumo and retired 4 years before entering the UFC
Gerard Gordeau
From 1988 Multiple Savate World Champion super heavy weight (France)
From 1988 Multiple Savate European Champion super heavy weight (France)
1989 1st Mixed fighter Tokyo Dome (Japan)
1989 1st Vale Tudo - Shooto Champion Tokyo Dome (Japan)
1991 1st K1-Champion Tokyo Dome (Japan)
1991 1st Rings Champion Ariake Colosseum Tokyo (Japan)
1993 Champion Thai-Boxing Ramadajin (Thailand)
1994 World Champion Seido-Kan Karate
Zane Fraiser was supposed to be a kickboxer, but I couldn't find anything on his career other than MMA
There is a Kevin Rosier in the boxing records. The stats match those on Sherdog (height and residence) If it is the same guy, then he was 2-3 prior to UFC 1 and is now 7-17. IMDB has a mini bio on him: (take it with a grain of salt)
-He has a Kickboxing Record of 66 Wins and 8 Losses with 66 Knockouts.
-He is a 3 Time WKA Super-Heavyweight Champion.
What I gathered from this and the fact that they published application forms in martial arts magazines, the UFC had a hard time getting decorated martial artists. Probably due to several factors including either lack of money, the fighters' fear of losing and getting bad reputation.
An interesting bit of trivia I discovered when researching Gordeau. Apparently he eye gouged Yuki Nakai. Yuki went blind in that eye, yet went on to go 3-1 in his last 4 MMA fights.
Last edited 8/26/08 4:01PM by Rush
Edit note/reason: n/a
3 total post edits
_______________________________________
MMA Playground Ninja Moderator - Be cool and follow forum conduct or you'll be banned and all you will see is a puff of smoke. Members banned - 31, IPs banned - 19
|
|
Post #6 8/26/08 3:58:10PM
|
Rabi
Standup Guy
Career record: 141-75
Season: 49-21 (#439)
Location: Coventry UK
|
I have watched the fight were Gordeau eye gouged that bloke, it is on Rickson Gracie Choke dvd, that guy took beating from Gordeau and then won with a knee bar, he lost to Gracie in the final.
Another interesting bit of Trivia is that Zane Frasier once challanged Frank W Dux to a fight and Frank bottled it.
Frank W Dux was the main character in film that was made about his entry into and underground tournament. The film was Bloodsport with Jean Claude Van Damme.
|
|
Post #7 8/26/08 5:52:40PM
|
Laying down the beats
Career record: 192-150
Season: 37-33 (#1810)
Location: Canada
|
Posted by Rabi
I have watched the fight were Gordeau eye gouged that bloke, it is on Rickson Gracie Choke dvd, that guy took beating from Gordeau and then won with a knee bar, he lost to Gracie in the final.
Another interesting bit of Trivia is that Zane Frasier once challanged Frank W Dux to a fight and Frank bottled it.
Frank W Dux was the main character in film that was made about his entry into and underground tournament. The film was Bloodsport with Jean Claude Van Damme.
Yeah I read that about Zane. I did reading on Dux at one point. Sounds like a lot of people consider him a fraud.
_______________________________________
MMA Playground Ninja Moderator - Be cool and follow forum conduct or you'll be banned and all you will see is a puff of smoke. Members banned - 31, IPs banned - 19
|
|
Post #8 8/26/08 8:30:41PM
|
seanfu
In Full Mount
Career record: 90-55
Season: 31-19 (#5037)
Location: Fort Wayne IN
|
That's my bad then. I thought the only legit ones were Shamrock, Gracie, Gerard, the Sumo guy, and Art Jimmerman. Savate, Judo, Sambo, Catch Wrestling, Muay Thai, and Capeora would have been cool.
|
|
Post #9 8/27/08 1:45:37AM
|
mrsmiley
MMA Sensei
Career record: 151-105
Season: 31-28 (#4236)
Location:
|
Posted by Rush
If you look at the records (just form google searches)here are the summaries
Ken Shamrock - Had 3 pancrase wins (out of 3 fights) under his belt when he went into UFC 1
Jimmerson was the 1983 National Golden Gloves Middleweight champion. His boxing record is 51-18, but I don't how many of those were pre-UFC 1. He retired in 2002 from boxing and was 30 when he was in the UFC.
Pat Smith - only thing I found about him was that he is a registered sex offender. Didn't see that one. lol
Telia Tuli was 57-27-14 in sumo and retired 4 years before entering the UFC
Gerard Gordeau
From 1988 Multiple Savate World Champion super heavy weight (France)
From 1988 Multiple Savate European Champion super heavy weight (France)
1989 1st Mixed fighter Tokyo Dome (Japan)
1989 1st Vale Tudo - Shooto Champion Tokyo Dome (Japan)
1991 1st K1-Champion Tokyo Dome (Japan)
1991 1st Rings Champion Ariake Colosseum Tokyo (Japan)
1993 Champion Thai-Boxing Ramadajin (Thailand)
1994 World Champion Seido-Kan Karate
Zane Fraiser was supposed to be a kickboxer, but I couldn't find anything on his career other than MMA
There is a Kevin Rosier in the boxing records. The stats match those on Sherdog (height and residence) If it is the same guy, then he was 2-3 prior to UFC 1 and is now 7-17. IMDB has a mini bio on him: (take it with a grain of salt)
-He has a Kickboxing Record of 66 Wins and 8 Losses with 66 Knockouts.
-He is a 3 Time WKA Super-Heavyweight Champion.
What I gathered from this and the fact that they published application forms in martial arts magazines, the UFC had a hard time getting decorated martial artists. Probably due to several factors including either lack of money, the fighters' fear of losing and getting bad reputation.
An interesting bit of trivia I discovered when researching Gordeau. Apparently he eye gouged Yuki Nakai. Yuki went blind in that eye, yet went on to go 3-1 in his last 4 MMA fights.
I can add a little bit to Zane Fraiser.In the Book "BRAWL" Rorion Gracie commented that they chose Fraiser for one simple reason.After a Karate tournement a fight broke out between Fraiser and another martial artist.Zane put a beatdown on the guy.The guy he totaly deystroyed was who Rorion and Art Davie were coming to ask to compete in the tournement.
This guy was none other than Frank Dux.The man the movie Bloodsport is supposedly based on.(though I don't believe Dux's claims,Rorion and Davie thought he could help bring a lot of exposure to the UFC.)
So their is defently something their.
Last edited 8/27/08 5:43AM by mrsmiley
Edit note/reason: n/a
|
|
Post #10 8/27/08 5:36:47AM
|
Laying down the beats
Career record: 192-150
Season: 37-33 (#1810)
Location: Canada
|
very cool information about Dux. Didn't know that.
_______________________________________
MMA Playground Ninja Moderator - Be cool and follow forum conduct or you'll be banned and all you will see is a puff of smoke. Members banned - 31, IPs banned - 19
|
|
Post #11 8/27/08 8:27:05AM
|
Manfred
MMA Sensei
Career record: 216-125
Season: 47-22 (#185)
Location: Brasov, Romania
|
I think there weren't many grapplers in general because the UFC wanted to make a point about stand-up fighters and "movie bad asses" UFC 1 was an infomercial for GJJ so they wanted boxers kickboxers, karate and TWD guys to prove a point about the perception of martial arts
I put this in the news forum the other day. It has some pretty good behind-the-scenes info.
LINK TO 15th Anniversary article
|
|
Post #12 8/27/08 9:27:40AM
|
fullerene
MMA Sensei
Career record: 184-92
Season: 42-28 (#1511)
Location:
|
Posted by Rush
If you look at the records (just form google searches)here are the summaries
Ken Shamrock - Had 3 pancrase wins (out of 3 fights) under his belt when he went into UFC 1
Jimmerson was the 1983 National Golden Gloves Middleweight champion. His boxing record is 51-18, but I don't how many of those were pre-UFC 1. He retired in 2002 from boxing and was 30 when he was in the UFC.
Pat Smith - only thing I found about him was that he is a registered sex offender. Didn't see that one. lol
Smith won the Sabaki challenge, which was a Kyukoshin style tourney (kickboxing with no punches to the face) during that same period of time. That would have made him about the most legitimate karate choice as an American...the "long-pants kickboxing" had largely disappeared by 2003 and PKC and USKA tournaments allowed contact (including face punches) but were "point sparring" format.
Pat Smtih had 3-4 pro boxing matches by 1993 as well and ended up losing his way into a paid loser in the sport with a record of 5-10 (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=31582&cat=boxer)
Smith fought in the WCL (Chuck Norris' kickboxing league) this year and he has two MMA wins in 2008 as well.
Jimmerson's record is actually 33-18 (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=2044&cat=boxer) but his best streak was around the time of the first UFC...he went 15-0 from 1991 to 1993.
|
|
Post #13 8/27/08 9:54:41AM
|
rabbit915
In Full Mount
Career record: 123-75
Season: 42-28 (#1137)
Location: Wisconsin
|
Posted by mrsmiley
I can add a little bit to Zane Fraiser.In the Book "BRAWL" Rorion Gracie commented that they chose Fraiser for one simple reason.After a Karate tournement a fight broke out between Fraiser and another martial artist.Zane put a beatdown on the guy.The guy he totaly deystroyed was who Rorion and Art Davie were coming to ask to compete in the tournement.
This guy was none other than Frank Dux.The man the movie Bloodsport is supposedly based on.(though I don't believe Dux's claims,Rorion and Davie thought he could help bring a lot of exposure to the UFC.)
So their is defently something their.
Ive heard this same story except they said it was aboutr Keith Hackney. I heard it on a forum so someone might have been lieing but for some reason im sure its Hackney.
|
|
Post #14 8/27/08 11:10:24AM
|
cowcatcher
MMA Sensei
Career record: 223-120
Season: 49-20 (#64)
Location: Milwaukee
|
Posted by rabbit915
Ive heard this same story except they said it was aboutr Keith Hackney. I heard it on a forum so someone might have been lieing but for some reason im sure its Hackney.
hackney wasnt in ufc1, he first showed up at ufc 3
|
|
Post #15 8/27/08 11:14:10AM
|
|
