| |
SHOGUN/ RAMPAGE verbal agreement for DECEMBER
SHOGUN/ RAMPAGE verbal agreement for DECEMBER |
| Posted By |
Message |
Laying down the beats
Career record: 192-150
Season: 37-33 (#1810)
Location: Canada
|
Posted by Aether
I'm NOT saying the woman is an opportunist, I'm saying that no one here knows ANYTHING about the situation so to draw conclusions is ridiculous because any number of things could have happened. Not one single person here can claim they have even a vague idea of what the truth is. In a democracy people are innocent until proven guilty. Opinion is completely irrelevant, it's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of facts which no one here is aware of.
Not one single person on these forums has even close to enough information to make claims like "Rampage took a human life" or to say that "there's no way Rampage caused the miscarriage." Choosing either side is _retarded_. That's my entire point. Absolutely no one here knows anything about what happened other than what they read in a 2 paragraph article on a sports website, but for some reason everyone is acting like they are the doctor who examined the woman.
What I am saying is, it is a bit of a conundrum. Either the woman is guilty of killing her unborn child or Rampage is responsible for it. Either way you are labeling someone as a guilty. If you are innocent until proven guilty then why is anyone talking about it? Unless, you are stating your opinion on the matter. Rampage's innocence has nothing to do with our opinion. His bona fideinnocence is judged by a judge and/or jury if sent to court, but people will always have their opinions regardless of the official verdict/facts. Please do not lecture me on democracy and then tell me my opinion is irrelevant and doesn't matter.
Our opinions are irrelevant to Rampage's innocence or guilt and may be irrelevant to others on this site, but at a point where factual information is not available, it is 100% relevant. An opinion and a fact are very different and should not always be on the same playing field.
I'll argue until I'm blue in the face quite frankly because people are essentially labeling someone a murderer based on judgment made in the complete absence of knowledge.
Is that the real reason? I guess you believe OJ Simpson is innocent then and that everyone that thinks (or has the opinion of him being guilty) is stupid or ignorant???.
Many people around here need English reading comprehension courses. I don't mean that sarcastically or as an insult. It's actually kind of frightening to me how many people can read a simple paragraph and then several paraphrased clarifications, and still not understand what is being said.
I agree, but I think you fell victim to (or it at least appears to be that way) what you were complaining about when you were defensive about "not saying the woman was an opportunist" because I never accused of you saying so. That was a conclusion I made based on the timing and wording, specifically the word "opportunist," of your post.
In general, people on the Internet need to know the difference bewteen:
"Rampage contributed to the death of the woman's unborn child"
and
"I think Rampage contributed to the death of the woman's unborn child"
Don't get me wrong, I admire your intention in trying to get people to adhere to the facts, but it only applies to the people that make statements as facts. Because opinions can be wrong one time and correct at a later time, I don't think it is fair to label them as irrelevant and meaningless whether we think we know or don't know the facts. I'm a scientist and work on cutting edge research. Believe me, there are very few true facts in this world. A lot of what people think are facts are general consensuses and opinions based on the current available pieces of evidence.
Last edited 8/25/08 2:01PM by Rush
Edit note/reason: n/a
_______________________________________
MMA Playground Ninja Moderator - Be cool and follow forum conduct or you'll be banned and all you will see is a puff of smoke. Members banned - 31, IPs banned - 19
|
|
Post #46 8/25/08 1:59:40PM
|
|
|
kaduey
Standup Guy
Career record: 223-124
Season: 44-26 (#347)
Location: Canada
|
Posted by MikeyG
Posted by kaduey
Why would Zuffa try to dismantle their careers? They are 2 of the best fighters in 205 division so it would be completely logical to match them against eachother. If you want to watch gimme fights go watch boxing. The idea of mma is to see who is the best fighter in the world.
I didnt say I wanted gimme fights, but they are needed to give the fighters momentum, you people who have no fighting experience just dont understand that, a "can" or two is needed sometimes, and thats what upsets are made of, this isnt boxing, the biggest underdog can win, so your argument is flawed, and no the UFC dosnt have all the best fighters so we'll never know whos really the best in every weight, so nice try dude
Who's the real troll?
|
|
Post #47 8/25/08 2:46:00PM
|
Aether
MMA Sensei
Career record: 120-82
Season: 38-23 (#2266)
Location: Canada
|
As a response to the first paragraph, that simply isn't true. You're saying that the only two possibilities are that she did it on purpose or rampage is responsible. That isn't true and it's also not what I said. I simply offered that as a possible but highly unlikely alternative theory to prove that something else could have happened. It could also have happened as a result of completely natural causes, or any other number of things. It's not like the only two possibilities are that rampage did it or she did it on purpose. There are many possible explanations, including ones that leave absolutely no one at fault, so in no way is it a conundrum and in no way must someone necessarily be labeled guilty.
The point is _a wide variety of things could have happened_ and _no one here has any proof as to what happened_. By no means am I labeling anyone guilty, my whole point in all of these paragraphs is that NO ONE is guilty until there is PROOF that they are guilty.
As for the second point, yes, that is why I'm arguing this point. I don't have any other reason to defend him. I'm not even really defending him, he may very well be the cause of the miscarriage, I'm simply saying we don't know that until it's proven so why just walk around accepting it as fact. (again not saying you are, you haven't stated you stance on it, but many, many others are saying this)
As for the OJ analogy, OJ was found guilty in civil court for one thing, so he can be said to be guilty regardless of if his criminal proceedings were botched, also on top of that tons of concrete evidence WAS offered up as proof of his guilt which we all have access to. His criminal trial may have been botched, but he was ultimately found guilty in a court of law, and there is concrete proof of what happened. There is not any proof that anyone is responsible for this yet.
As for my comments about people saying I said the woman was an opportunist, that was directed at MaxOne, not at you, as he was the one who indicated that I had said "that was what probably happened" I simply used your phrasing because it was more succinct.
My post was really directed at the issue in general, not specifically at your post, some of it addresses MaxOne, some of it addresses your points, some at dust, some of it simply addresses the general sentiments I've read since the incident. My point really simply put is that there is no proof, so there's no way people can say what happened one way or the other.
Anyway, I'm glad that you and I can have a simple conversation about the matter without getting angry or rude about it. Some people don't seem to be able to handle people disagreeing with them without getting furious and slinging insults.
|
|
Post #48 8/25/08 3:00:09PM
|
Aether
MMA Sensei
Career record: 120-82
Season: 38-23 (#2266)
Location: Canada
|
Posted by kaduey
Posted by MikeyG
Posted by kaduey
Why would Zuffa try to dismantle their careers? They are 2 of the best fighters in 205 division so it would be completely logical to match them against eachother. If you want to watch gimme fights go watch boxing. The idea of mma is to see who is the best fighter in the world.
I didnt say I wanted gimme fights, but they are needed to give the fighters momentum, you people who have no fighting experience just dont understand that, a "can" or two is needed sometimes, and thats what upsets are made of, this isnt boxing, the biggest underdog can win, so your argument is flawed, and no the UFC dosnt have all the best fighters so we'll never know whos really the best in every weight, so nice try dude
Who's the real troll?
Yeah, exactly. Mikey, go ahead and read the discussion between me and rush, and notice how we can disagree, trade ideas back and forth, and accept one another's opinions without getting angry and calling each other names.
You are really the only troll in this thread. You talk a bunch of nonsense, and then when someone says "sorry that's nonsense, and here's why I think it's nonsense" you turn into an infant and start calling people names instead of just coming up with valid counter-arguments and having a debate like an adult.
Grow up.
Last edited 8/25/08 3:26PM by aether
Edit note/reason: n/a
|
|
Post #49 8/25/08 3:04:37PM
|
Laying down the beats
Career record: 192-150
Season: 37-33 (#1810)
Location: Canada
|
Posted by Aether
As a response to the first paragraph, that simply isn't true. You're saying that the only two possibilities are that she did it on purpose or rampage is responsible. That isn't true and it's also not what I said. I simply offered that as a possible but highly unlikely alternative theory to prove that something else could have happened. It could also have happened as a result of completely natural causes, or any other number of things. It's not like the only two possibilities are that rampage did it or she did it on purpose. There are many possible explanations, including ones that leave absolutely no one at fault, so in no way is it a conundrum and in no way must someone necessarily be labeled guilty.
You're right that there are other reasons for the unfortunate incident, but I wa speaking in terms of what most people were debating. I should have made that clear.
As for there being no proof, well, I guess it depends on what you define as proof. I prefer the term evidence myself, because proof is a really strong word that many people have a wide variety of opinions on it's meaning.
I used the OJ example because you were focusing on the inoocent until proven guilty. In that case the evidence at hand was misinterpreted. Just because evidence exists, doesn't mean the "proper" verdict will result and it doesn't mean that people have to agree with the official verdict.
There are a lot of pieces of evidence that can be used to form an opinion on the matter: The timing, establishing the characters of the people involved, Rampage's state of mind, the car's damage, etc. All of that is evidence, and can be interpreted differently (like any evidence).
I've heard of a criminal problem in the courts these days called the CSI effect. The CSI effect basically is a problem where jurys expect a smoking gun to find someone guilty. In the real world textbook evidence doesn't always exist and many times the charge or sentence is reduced because of insufficient evidence, though guilt is apparent.
Last edited 8/25/08 3:58PM by Rush
Edit note/reason: n/a
_______________________________________
MMA Playground Ninja Moderator - Be cool and follow forum conduct or you'll be banned and all you will see is a puff of smoke. Members banned - 31, IPs banned - 19
|
|
Post #50 8/25/08 3:57:00PM
|
MikeyG
MMA Regular
Career record: 31-25
Season: 31-25 (#3611)
Location: Anywhere, Everywhere And Nowhere
|
Posted by Aether
Posted by kaduey
Posted by MikeyG
Posted by kaduey
Why would Zuffa try to dismantle their careers? They are 2 of the best fighters in 205 division so it would be completely logical to match them against eachother. If you want to watch gimme fights go watch boxing. The idea of mma is to see who is the best fighter in the world.
I didnt say I wanted gimme fights, but they are needed to give the fighters momentum, you people who have no fighting experience just dont understand that, a "can" or two is needed sometimes, and thats what upsets are made of, this isnt boxing, the biggest underdog can win, so your argument is flawed, and no the UFC dosnt have all the best fighters so we'll never know whos really the best in every weight, so nice try dude
Who's the real troll?
Yeah, exactly. Mikey, go ahead and read the discussion between me and rush, and notice how we can disagree, trade ideas back and forth, and accept one another's opinions without getting angry and calling each other names.
You are really the only troll in this thread. You talk a bunch of nonsense, and then when someone says "sorry that's nonsense, and here's why I think it's nonsense" you turn into an infant and start calling people names instead of just coming up with valid counter-arguments and having a debate like an adult.
Grow up.
right your the product of maturity... once again nobodies right except you, inflammatory as you once said, i never inteded to pick verbal fights but you insisted to keep on doing it
you started this whole fiasco and dont pretend you didnt by using some scapegoat, you completely bashed and ripped apart what i said in my first and second post in the henderson thread and you call that "friendly debate" your in serious need of a wake up call, if someone calls you a troll its because your intending to piss someone off, thats not name calling thats calling it as its seen
now how about we just part ways from these keyboard wars
Last edited 8/25/08 5:18PM by MikeyG
Edit note/reason: n/a
|
|
Post #51 8/25/08 5:10:47PM
|
Aether
MMA Sensei
Career record: 120-82
Season: 38-23 (#2266)
Location: Canada
|
once again, the purpose of a forum board is to debate. For probably the 4th time: I didn't call your post inflammatory, and can you please quote me as saying that. I've explained this to you at least 4 or 5 times.
You don't seem to be able to tell the difference between someone disagreeing with you and someone personally attacking you. If you don't want people to publicly disagree with you, don't post your opinion in a public forum intended for discussion and debate. As long as you continue posting comments that I disagree with, I will continue debating with you, the same goes for every single person on the site. The difference is they react by having a discussion and you react by having a temper tantrum.
|
|
Post #52 8/25/08 5:42:01PM
|
JackHammerXXX
MMA Regular
Career record: 54-23
Season: 47-21 (#868)
Location: Omaha
|
I'd rather see a Shogun/Jackson rematch, then a third Wand fight...Shogun only destroyed Rampage once, you know?
I see this going the distance though, and Shogun pulling it out. Who knows, with no kicks to the face or knees on the ground, cage instead of ring, I'm curious to see how Shogun handles all that, cuz again, the Forrest fight wasn't the best example of his skill and ability.
I like both fighters, but my sentiments go with Quinton. If he lost, in a devastating manner, for that matter, I think he'd be heading further down, as opposed to Shogun who, could say he only lost to the two, past champs of the division...
|
|
Post #53 8/25/08 6:38:14PM
|
The best kicker in the world
Career record: 170-89
Season: 37-18 (#2479)
Location: Regina SK
|
I am a guy who loves star vs star, but Shogun coming off two knee operations and rampage coming off his mental breakdown, losing his coach and mentor and everything isn't a fight I want to see. I'd like to see Rampage vs a guy like Houston, or someone who fans would love to see but not a guy like shogun who has the capeability to destroy anyone, and I would like to see Shogun face a guy who will give him the oppertunity to show the UFC fans who he is and what he is capeable of. It would be an awsome fight, right after they both beat a B level fighter, remember Shogun hasn't fought in a long long time and Rampage needs a coach, so it's not going to be either of them at their best.
_______________________________________
"Fall down 7 times, get up 8" - Japanese proverb.
|
|
Post #54 8/26/08 7:59:34PM
|
saemskin
BANNED
Career record: 75-70
Season: 30-23 (#4326)
Location:
|
Posted by dust
I got a feeling Rampage might be done as a top fighter. When he's down mentally he's not half as good as usual. This time he's responsible for the death of an almost living human.
3
moron
|
|
Post #55 8/27/08 11:50:39AM
|
Heavyweight Chump
| 1 |  |  |
1 |
Career record: 127-62
Season: 53-17 (#30)
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
|
Notably absent were charges related to Holli Griggs, a passenger in one of the cars that Jackson sideswiped. Griggs was 16 weeks pregnant with a boy when she miscarried two weeks after the incident. Orange County DA spokeswoman Farrah Emami told MMAWeekly.com that a subsequent investigation of the miscarriage did not implicate Jackson.
“We reviewed all the medical records and spoke with the victim’s physician, and the evidence showed that the loss of the fetus was not related to or a result of the crash caused by the defendant,” Emami said.
_______________________________________
If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them. - Jack Handy
CHECK IT OUT: Left Lane Cruiser
|
|
Post #56 8/28/08 10:08:45AM
|
saemskin
BANNED
Career record: 75-70
Season: 30-23 (#4326)
Location:
|
AW Damn, what do you know.
You can all stick your pointer fingers up your arses.
|
|
Post #57 8/28/08 1:22:50PM
|
|
|
|
