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UFC 87 Brock Lesnar analysis
UFC 87 Brock Lesnar analysis |
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---------Rico Suave--------
Career record: 207-132
Season: 46-24 (#1137)
Location: Pennsylvania
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I remember hearing the worlds worst nightmare was Bj Penn on a tread-mill. I now believe that the worlds worst night mare is Brock with jujitsu.
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"Only after disaster can we be resurrected."- Tyler Durden
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Post #16 8/10/08 10:10:49AM
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creed3900
Learning to Sprawl
Career record: 169-104
Season: 38-22 (#2479)
Location: Oak Harbor, WA
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I completely disagree with what you said about "someone with legit standup skills would have KO'd HH on the feet". HH has fought many good standup fighters (mostly in Pride), and I never saw him EVER get knocked out on his feet because he has a good chin and come back power even when the deck is stacked against him.
I also think it's a bit ludacrous to compare Brock Lesnar's punches to someone like GSP. Look at Lesanr's hands!! They were like almost as big as Heath's head!! The man is freakish, he must cut from around 280-285. If you were him would you be worried about landing "crisp" punches if you could completely overwhelm someone?? Also, Lesnar is a wrestler by trade, not a boxer.
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Post #17 8/10/08 10:38:21AM
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prozacnation1978
MMA Sensei
Career record: 174-77
Season: 49-21 (#254)
Location: san diego
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i was impressed
lesnar is a beast if he can man handle herring
and herring is a tough dude with some more skill, maybe learn the sub game some more, he could be a huge threat for years
their were more than a hand ful of times where he could have finished off herring, overall i am very curious who he will fight next and who would have the balls to face him
lesnar could still fight coleman in dec
but i doubt coleman would take that fight
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Post #18 8/10/08 10:46:46AM
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tdietel01
MMA Regular
Career record: 60-33
Season: 19-9 (#5755)
Location: Findlay Ohio
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The celebration was a bit uncalled for. bit he may get a gimme cause it was only his 3rd fight. Im also not sure it was LnP as much as not knowing how to finish herring. I think he was afraid to punch hmself out and he really needs more JJ practice. he should have been able to choke him out in the 1st or 2nd
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Post #19 8/10/08 11:16:33AM
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I'm a LEAD FARMER MOTHA F*CKER
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Career record: 135-93
Season: 39-31 (#2217)
Location: Denver, Colorado Birthplace of the UFC
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Posted by Mr_Dead_Sexy
I remember one point in the match where I swear it looked like the keylock was wide open, but he was just using it to hold HH's arm down. And not that I'd expect it, but it looked like arm-triangles were there at a few points.
The thing that really turns me off about Lesnar is his cockyness. He was pushed to the moon and back by WWE. He was the boy there for awhile. So he was kinda used to getting it his way. I'm really hoping Dana doesn't try to market him as the face of the UFC HW division. He's a phenomenal athlete, don't get me wrong, but the arm pumping, laughing, celebratory BS talking he did in the last couple seconds, not a fan. I honestly thought Heath was going to head butt or something when they hugged at the end. I'm not saying that I'm against fighters celebrating a win, but act like you've been there before.
I really want to see Lesnar vs a top notch wrestler before I say much about him. If not a wrestler, then someone with above average TD defense. The HW division is shallow atm, almost the level when we had Eilers and Buentello as serious contenders. Here's my quick synopsis of next possible opponents.
O'Brien - Probably on his way out. This would ensure that.
Cain - Not yet. Guarantee that. Lose/lose for the UFC.
GG - Possibility.
Kongo - I don't think so. UFC will probably try to build him up again.
Wellisch - Maybe.
Coleman - If he heals/doesn't fight Shogun.
The Insane One - Won't prove much. But hey, who else do they have?
From this, Gonzaga looks like the best bet, and what would probably be his toughest fight. Never been much a fan of Kongo. His ground game has been improving, but it's still nothing to write home about.
People talk about giving Brock easy fights I don't think the UFC wants to pay him as much as they do to have him fight cans we all know cain might be on a showdown with brock some day by I say give him Kongo or GG next
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Broncos will go 11-5
4-0 av bets
He's been known to cure narcalepsy by just walking into a room. His orgin donation card list his beard. He is a lover not a fighter but he's also a fighter so don't get any idea's
he is SpiderSilva
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Post #20 8/10/08 11:47:51AM
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Hit me with those laser beams!
Career record: 236-111
Season: 53-17 (#11)
Location: Morrison, CO
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Posted by juanez13
I was Impressed by Brock.
But I disagree with you, Brock did exactly what he should have done. And that was use his strenght and control to nullify Herrings BJJ, no way should he have played JJ with Herring on the ground, Herring purposely gives up his back (ala Huerta, and him against Nog) because he has very good defence and always seems to be able to escape by rolling into the persons guard, If Brock would have taken Herring's back he would end up on his back, and his corner knew that (every time Brock has mount herring gave his back).... The position he had for most of the fight was good, he couldnt throw alot of big shots because Herring was putting his face on the mat and pointing the back his head towards Lesnar so he couldnt hit him much, he let Herring choose what positon he stayed, on his back or on his knees, either way Brock was winning the fight.
As far as his stand up goes, obviously needs alot of work (alot of boxing), but he's got great raw power and speed, which already make him dangerous, especially if he fakes a takedown and throws a right. Defenately needs sme work on his boxing.
And as far as is celebration went, really dont care much for it, Lesnar is a natural showman and competitor. He still knows how to work a crowd..
I totally agree with you and disagree with TS. Brock came out with a great game plan to beat someone with WAY more experience...someone who has fought great wrestlers in the past...someone who has fought the top of the top competition. I was totally impressed with Brock last night in only his THIRD MMA fight, beating someone with as much experience as Heath. Almost every hardcore MMA fan I talked to thought Heath would be able to last the first two minutes and then handle Brock with ease. That was not the case in the slighest. Heath could do absolutely NOTHING in a 30-26 domination by a 1-1 fighter.
Yeah, his stand-up needs A LOT of work and his BJJ skills need even more, but come one... give this guy some credit!! The potential is there for him to be VERY dangerous. I just knew there would be a ton a 'butt-hurt' people talking about how they weren't impressed with Brock....blah, blah, blah. It's ridiculous...how many people come in with basically no MMA experience and beat someone like Heath?!?!
Ok, I'm done.
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Accolades:
UFC 70: Nations Collide: 18 points #2978 out of 3669
UFC 81: Breaking Point: 28 points #5248 out of 7305
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Post #21 8/10/08 11:51:31AM
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The People's Mod
Career record: 152-91
Season: 47-23 (#137)
Location: Getting choked out or arm barred
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Posted by npayant
Posted by juanez13
I was Impressed by Brock.
But I disagree with you, Brock did exactly what he should have done. And that was use his strenght and control to nullify Herrings BJJ, no way should he have played JJ with Herring on the ground, Herring purposely gives up his back (ala Huerta, and him against Nog) because he has very good defence and always seems to be able to escape by rolling into the persons guard, If Brock would have taken Herring's back he would end up on his back, and his corner knew that (every time Brock has mount herring gave his back).... The position he had for most of the fight was good, he couldnt throw alot of big shots because Herring was putting his face on the mat and pointing the back his head towards Lesnar so he couldnt hit him much, he let Herring choose what positon he stayed, on his back or on his knees, either way Brock was winning the fight.
As far as his stand up goes, obviously needs alot of work (alot of boxing), but he's got great raw power and speed, which already make him dangerous, especially if he fakes a takedown and throws a right. Defenately needs sme work on his boxing.
And as far as is celebration went, really dont care much for it, Lesnar is a natural showman and competitor. He still knows how to work a crowd..
I totally agree with you and disagree with TS. Brock came out with a great game plan to beat someone with WAY more experience...someone who has fought great wrestlers in the past...someone who has fought the top of the top competition. I was totally impressed with Brock last night in only his THIRD MMA fight, beating someone with as much experience as Heath. Almost every hardcore MMA fan I talked to thought Heath would be able to last the first two minutes and then handle Brock with ease. That was not the case in the slighest. Heath could do absolutely NOTHING in a 30-26 domination by a 1-1 fighter.
Yeah, his stand-up needs A LOT of work and his BJJ skills need even more, but come one... give this guy some credit!! The potential is there for him to be VERY dangerous. I just knew there would be a ton a 'butt-hurt' people talking about how they weren't impressed with Brock....blah, blah, blah. It's ridiculous...how many people come in with basically no MMA experience and beat someone like Heath?!?!
Ok, I'm done.
To be fair- I complimented the gameplan and more importantly the maturity to follow through with it.
I was one of the guys thinking Lesnar was going to gas out, and he didn't. I also complimented that.
You could say that I'm butt hurt, but I only bring up what I bring up (his lack of JJ skills and stand up skills) as an honest analysis. I give the guy credit and I never said he couldn't mature into a good fighter, but I saw a lot of rookie mistakes in there. Hardly anybody could come in there like Brock could with virtually no MMA experience and win the fight in that fashion. The only people that could do it are people that are freakishly big and strong with great wrestling credentials- like Brock Lesnar. So in that regard he impressed me, but it was nothing we didn't already expect or know about him.
The whole basis of the thread is to show that yeah, he's got the strength and the wrestling (which we knew) but let's not all jump on the bandwagon yet because 1) He didn't show anything that new besides more composure and 2) He still made a lot of rookie mistakes. Like riding the bull and dominating Herring from side control but being unable to maintain full mount because he wasn't putting hooks in.
You're going to have two people in this argument. The people that want Brock to do well so they're hyping up his performance, and the people that don't want Brock to do well so they're picking it apart. Go figure which side I'm on, but I was at least TRYING to be middle of the road by giving him props for sticking to the game plan, having awesome cardio, and obviously putting his great wrestling base to work in there.
Edit: Also, with his ginormous lack of respect at the end of the fight I find it hard to keep my mouth shut about him. If he wants to make fun of a fighter and yank the mic out of Rogan's hands like he's in the WWE then from a technical standpoint I'll make it my pleasure to pick his game apart. Give him a good JJ guy or a standup fighter with awesome takedown defense and I think you'll see what I mean.
Last edited 8/10/08 12:10PM by Jackelope
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2 total post edits
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"It is a shame that in this society we've been taught to judge a man's worth by what he owns instead of who he is." - Evan Tanner
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Post #22 8/10/08 12:06:56PM
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shogun7
Learning to Sprawl
Career record: 142-82
Season: 43-26 (#1271)
Location: Evansville
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good analysis. i thought brock looked pretty unstopable although i think he def could have stayed busier while in mount and other dominate possitions. Everytime he did deliever punches tho he made herring feel it. If he keeps getting better its going to be very very hard for anyone to beat him. I would love to see match-ups between cain valazquez and shane carwin
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Post #23 8/10/08 12:23:28PM
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The Axe Kick Murderer
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Career record: 159-78
Season: 51-19 (#39)
Location: who's asking?
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Posted by Jackelope
The whole basis of the thread is to show that yeah, he's got the strength and the wrestling (which we knew) but let's not all jump on the bandwagon yet because 1) He didn't show anything that new besides more composure and 2) He still made a lot of rookie mistakes. Like riding the bull and dominating Herring from side control but being unable to maintain full mount because he wasn't putting hooks in.
Like i said before, Brock and his Corner knew they shouldnt take Herring's back, Herring is like Huerta when someone has their back, its almost impossible to sub them from that position, Big Nog who probably has the best BJJ in the HW division had Herrings back multiple times in their last time and he couldnt sub him and every time it ended with Herring rolling into Nog's guard, Had Brock taking Herring's back the same thing probably would have happened. So he let Herring stay on his knees, which IMO is far from LnP, Brock was working him, and only reason he couldnt finish him is because Herring put his face against the mat and pointing the back of his head towards Lesnar, so Lesnar had to be careful when he threw his punches (at one point Herring complained about a shot to the back of the head, which was pretty clear he was doing it purposely).......
I'm not a Brock Nuthugger, but judging him on mistakes he didnt make is pretty stupid.
Last edited 8/10/08 12:44PM by juanez13
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"Failure is not Falling down,
But refusing to get Up"
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Post #24 8/10/08 12:36:31PM
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The People's Mod
Career record: 152-91
Season: 47-23 (#137)
Location: Getting choked out or arm barred
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Posted by juanez13
Posted by Jackelope
The whole basis of the thread is to show that yeah, he's got the strength and the wrestling (which we knew) but let's not all jump on the bandwagon yet because 1) He didn't show anything that new besides more composure and 2) He still made a lot of rookie mistakes. Like riding the bull and dominating Herring from side control but being unable to maintain full mount because he wasn't putting hooks in.
Like i said before, Brock and his Corner knew they shouldnt take Herring's back, Herring is like Huerta when someone has their back, its almost impossible to sub them from that position, Big Nog who probably has the best BJJ in the HW division had Herrings back multiple times in their last time and he couldnt sub him and every time it ended with Herring rolling into Nog's guard, Had Brock taking Herring's back the same thing probably would have happened. So he let Herring stay on his knees, which IMO is far from LnP, Brock was working him, and only reason he couldnt finish him is because Herring put his face against the mat and pointing the back of his head towards Lesnar, so Lesnar had to be careful when he threw his punches (at one point Herring complaied about a shot to the back of the head, which was pretty clear he was doing it purposely).......
I'm not a Brock Nuthugger, but judging him on mistakes he didnt make is pretty stupid.
I'm not dissing the lack of taking rear mount, I'm dissing the lack of ability to hold FULL mount. (which he had at several times through the night) He didn't set hooks from full mount and Herring gave his back out of it like nothing when he couldn't even move with Lesnar in top position. On the contrary I praise Lesnar for not stepping into Herring's guard and favoring side control/top position over rear mount. If Hendo had done the same thing against Anderson Silva we'd likely have a different MW champion right now.
edit: I also noticed Herring complaining to the ref about the shot to the back of the head. I thought that was pretty weak.
Last edited 8/10/08 12:51PM by Jackelope
Edit note/reason: n/a
2 total post edits
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"It is a shame that in this society we've been taught to judge a man's worth by what he owns instead of who he is." - Evan Tanner
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Post #25 8/10/08 12:43:39PM
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I miss the outside
Career record: 115-64
Season: 45-24 (#281)
Location: 360 Washington State
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Realize exactly what we are Analyizing......
A fighter with basically no business fighting at this level, that had size strength and one basic skill set wrestling
He never got rocked, never looked in trouble and never looked gassed
Lesnar won this fight hands down against a fighter that talked alot of shit before the fight.....
Heath is lucky in my opinion that Lesnar didn't pull out the shark slam
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Post #26 8/10/08 12:55:15PM
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sillysnail
MMA Regular
Career record: 19-9
Season: 5-3 (#8181)
Location:
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Lesnar did exactly what someone with very limited mma training and experience would do in that situation. he stuck to what he's good at and showed flares of greatness. i disagree with the idea that his standup sucks, i thought he threw very well calculated shots and avoided being careless when he knew heath was in trouble. i think he could have stood with herring all 3 rounds and won that fight. who cares if his technique isn't perfect, the guy has mega power and is very swift.
the one thing i did find frustrating was the fact that he didn't try at all for that rnc. when someone gives you their back it's not a good defensive position, but lesnar let it become that. there was one point where herring rolled over while mounted and lesnar actually had the hooks in and he immediately pulled them out. at no point did herrings bjj pose a threat and he should have gambled and tried for a submission.
apart from that, the guy has 2 fights in the ufc against quality competition. hes not fighting cans here and with some more training and experience he could easily become a top competitor.
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Post #27 8/10/08 12:57:41PM
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Buy the ticket, take the ride
Career record: 114-66
Season: 40-30 (#2217)
Location: My big ass bed
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Posted by juanez13
I was Impressed by Brock.
But I disagree with you, Brock did exactly what he should have done. And that was use his strenght and control to nullify Herrings BJJ, no way should he have played JJ with Herring on the ground, Herring purposely gives up his back (ala Huerta, and him against Nog) because he has very good defence and always seems to be able to escape by rolling into the persons guard, If Brock would have taken Herring's back he would end up on his back, and his corner knew that (every time Brock has mount herring gave his back).... The position he had for most of the fight was good, he couldnt throw alot of big shots because Herring was putting his face on the mat and pointing the back his head towards Lesnar so he couldnt hit him much, he let Herring choose what positon he stayed, on his back or on his knees, either way Brock was winning the fight.
As far as his stand up goes, obviously needs alot of work (alot of boxing), but he's got great raw power and speed, which already make him dangerous, especially if he fakes a takedown and throws a right. Defenately needs sme work on his boxing.
And as far as is celebration went, really dont care much for it, Lesnar is a natural showman and competitor. He still knows how to work a crowd..
Believe it or not I don't agree! 
I'll give him his due with his wrestling, he really is a legit top flight wrestler but other than that he did little else to impress me. He had countless opportunities to end the fight and either let them slip past him or simply changed position. No doubt he dominated but I can't think of one wrestler with a good base and 20/30lb on their opponent that wouldn't.
If he had of finished the fight (and pretty much any other HW dominating that much would have) I'd have been impressed, but he didn't. Lesnar seamed content to just sit back and ride out the decision which annoyed the crap out of me.
If he sticks to the L&P style that he used last night I can see the size of the guy carrying him some of the way up the HW ladder but once he gets a guy with a good sprawl and bricks for fists or active guard and he's done.
I know its pretty mean to say but the guy is too old to start training stand up and be any real threat in MMA. He's 31/32 now and even if he trains nothing but boxing for the next year he still wont be much of a threat.
Lesnar's best hope of stringing together some more wins is to become a less active HW version of Sean Sherk.
Also his cocky attitude towards the end of the fight showed no class at all. He basically used his HUGE weight advantage to lay ontop of Herring for the majority of the fight then chose to rip on him in the last few seconds of the final round and still managed to get caught with a few shots as Herring was getting to his feet. I understand it was his first win in the UFC but that was classless.
If Brock was 5 years younger he would with out doubt be one of if not the hottest up and coming prospect in MMA, but I think last night and maybe his next fight will be his peak in the MMA world. Theirs noway he'll retain the same speed, athleticism and drive into his late thirties and with all his injures from pro wrestling, football and college wrestling he isn't likely to last to Randy's age in MMA.
Thats not even the worst thing about their fight last night... I picked Herring to win! Thats the real reason I'm not impressed with him!!
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Post #28 8/10/08 12:58:49PM
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MikeyMikeMichaels
Learning to Sprawl
Career record: 128-83
Season: 42-28 (#2056)
Location: St. Marys, Ga
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Brock is new and is still going to make mistakes for awhile
He is the best wrestler hands down that MMA has ever seen and that's including the likes of Matt Hughes, Randy Couture, and Dan Henderson.
I am sick of everyone dissing wrestlers for the Lay N Prey style. It's a good beginner strategy for wrestlers. Look at how well rounded Koshcheck is now, and he is nowhere near Brock's level. If you know how to wear down and control an opponent like a world class wrestler does, then I say do it. Just because it's not exciting to watch and happends to be the way that your oh so mighty BJJ practitioners can be beaten , does not make it a non-legitimate style. Lay N Prey to me is the grappling equivelent of counter punching a striker(Would you diss Machida's style or consider him nonlegit?). You are taking away all their technique and skill and controlling the situation. Do I enjoy lay N prey fights, NO, but having the background of wrestling my self I believe that it's smart. Especially if you're a big guy with a lot of weight. Why is that such a sin to use? No one bitches about guys with extreme speed , or guys with crazy flexibility such as BJ Penn using those to their advantage so what's wrong with using weight?
Bottom line: You use the tools that you have to win the fight. Brock did exactly that. Why fault him for it. If he had great BJJ then he would have attempted more submissions and guess what HE DEFINATELY WOULD HAVE GOTTEN THEM, but he isn't at that level yet. As far as his striking, it improved as far as how he thows his punches. It's still bad, but hey he knocked two talented, experienced fighters on their asses in one punch didn't he. I think the Lesnar haters are just pissy because he was a pro wrestler and to some people thats like being an ex-convict when it comes to athletes for some reason. BROCK IS NEW, HE IS GOING TO MAKE MISTAKES, HE IS STILL LEARNING, HE iS IMPROVING but guess what? HE'S WHOOPING THAT ASS with low level tools, other than wrestling, his cardio is great, his chin is still questionable, but he is only going to get better. To all the haters that look for any excuse to dismiss him as legit. GET OVER IT, AND JUST ENJOY THE SHOW.
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Post #29 8/10/08 1:20:16PM
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The Axe Kick Murderer
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Career record: 159-78
Season: 51-19 (#39)
Location: who's asking?
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Posted by SmileR
Posted by juanez13
I was Impressed by Brock.
But I disagree with you, Brock did exactly what he should have done. And that was use his strenght and control to nullify Herrings BJJ, no way should he have played JJ with Herring on the ground, Herring purposely gives up his back (ala Huerta, and him against Nog) because he has very good defence and always seems to be able to escape by rolling into the persons guard, If Brock would have taken Herring's back he would end up on his back, and his corner knew that (every time Brock has mount herring gave his back).... The position he had for most of the fight was good, he couldnt throw alot of big shots because Herring was putting his face on the mat and pointing the back his head towards Lesnar so he couldnt hit him much, he let Herring choose what positon he stayed, on his back or on his knees, either way Brock was winning the fight.
As far as his stand up goes, obviously needs alot of work (alot of boxing), but he's got great raw power and speed, which already make him dangerous, especially if he fakes a takedown and throws a right. Defenately needs sme work on his boxing.
And as far as is celebration went, really dont care much for it, Lesnar is a natural showman and competitor. He still knows how to work a crowd..
Believe it or not I don't agree!
I'll give him his due with his wrestling, he really is a legit top flight wrestler but other than that he did little else to impress me. He had countless opportunities to end the fight and either let them slip past him or simply changed position. No doubt he dominated but I can't think of one wrestler with a good base and 20/30lb on their opponent that wouldn't.
If he had of finished the fight (and pretty much any other HW dominating that much would have) I'd have been impressed, but he didn't. Lesnar seamed content to just sit back and ride out the decision which annoyed the crap out of me.
If he sticks to the L&P style that he used last night I can see the size of the guy carrying him some of the way up the HW ladder but once he gets a guy with a good sprawl and bricks for fists or active guard and he's done.
I know its pretty mean to say but the guy is too old to start training stand up and be any real threat in MMA. He's 31/32 now and even if he trains nothing but boxing for the next year he still wont be much of a threat.
Lesnar's best hope of stringing together some more wins is to become a less active HW version of Sean Sherk.
Also his cocky attitude towards the end of the fight showed no class at all. He basically used his HUGE weight advantage to lay ontop of Herring for the majority of the fight then chose to rip on him in the last few seconds of the final round and still managed to get caught with a few shots as Herring was getting to his feet. I understand it was his first win in the UFC but that was classless.
What! i dont believe it! camp member disagreeing with me!!!!
I dont get what you mean chances to finish the fight, Herring is probably in the top 5 hardest fighters to finish. It would be stupid for Brock to take Herring's back, Nog, the best BJJ heavyweight in the world has only been able to sub once and he tried as many subs as you could think of!....Brock going for a submission would only end up with him loosing a dominant position. It was Herring the one that chose to stay in that position, what's Brock gonna do? let him get up? he pushed herring onto his back from time to time but it ended up with herring giving his back again!.....he wasnt LnP, He did all he could with that position, landing heavy knees to the body, and getting some punches, which he could throw to many because Herring was putting his face against the floor and poiting the back of his head to Lesnar Purposely because he knew Brock wouldnt be able to throw much. And about the showmanship, thats who he is, thats what got him where he is!...Is not like anybody did see it coming, with Herring saying in every single interview this wasnt his first Rodeo!
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Post #30 8/10/08 1:37:25PM
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