Do the UFC rules really favour wrestlers? |
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Laying down the beats
Career record: 175-137
Season: 20-20 (#2314)
Location: Canada
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Do the UFC rules really favour wrestlers?
This is a comment I hear time and time again. At one point I actually believed it. Then I got thinking...
Most people that think UFC rules favour wrestlers will probably comment on the octagon itself. How it is big with no ropes to slip between and no corners to favour the strikers.
However, there some major advantages that strikers have.
1) They start each round standing up. A round can end with the wrestler on top, yet they both start standing up the next round.
2) A fighter has the discretion to bring the fight up to stand-up mode, but not the other way around. i.e. gone are the days where a grappler can lie on the canvas and call the fighter down.
I tried to factor in the limited striking when one or both fighters are on the ground, but thought that it did not benefit either striker or grappler.
All in all I say that the rules are pretty even.
What do you guys think?
Last edited 7/15/08 9:40AM by Rush
Edit note/reason: n/a
2 total post edits
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Post #1 7/14/08 7:57:03PM
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big_timmy
Standup Guy
Career record: 61-43
Season: 11-11 (#5758)
Location: Frankston, Australia
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I think its more suited to strikers, but not by much. Like you said, you can call a fighter up, but not down.
And a not well trained wrestler will just lay there, eg Koscheck when he first started. But if this happens, a good ref will see that there is no action, and call the fighters to stand. If a striker is strong enough to hold the wrestler in the one position, even from the bottom, then the ref is sgonna stand them up, and the advantage once again goes to the striker, but thats just as much skill of the striker than the rules giving them the advantage.
As for the cage being good for the wrestlers, it works more for the strikers. Needless to say Chuck finishing Tito wouldnt have been so spectacular if they were leaning on ropes. If you get stuck on the cage against a good striker, i cant think of anywhere worse to be in the world.
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Post #2 7/14/08 8:11:05PM
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Buy the ticket, take the ride
Career record: 98-52
Season: 24-16 (#1804)
Location: My big ass bed
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I defiantly think it favors grapplers for sure but I wouldn't say it just favors wrestlers. The fact that there are no corners is a major factor for strikers and the chain fence only really adds advantage to grapplers. Grapplers can push their opponent up against the fence and drag them down with where as strikers can't pin their opponent in a corner and beat the crap out of them.
In a way I do believe the octagon slightly favors grapplers but the name of the game is mixed martial arts so all the fighters should have at least some grappling knowledge. Worst comes to worst use it like Chuck and climb up the cage to get back to your feet!
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Post #3 7/14/08 8:11:12PM
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seanfu
In Full Mount
Career record: 76-47
Season: 17-11 (#5628)
Location: Fort Wayne IN
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cagefighting will always favor wrestlers. Takedowns, clinches, top position (head to fence) elbows, all favor wrestlers specifically.
BJJ guys have a better time in a ring where if on their back their head is safe from cranking sideways against a fence and the pace of a ringfight in general.
Strikers don't really belong in a cage simply because there is always an easy enersha cage takedown and for some reason I can't ever tell the movement is much different when on the feet.
Also, look at cage vs ring, in the cage, fighters make one mistake and can be done, such as a takedown or tight ko. The ring seems to be a little more of a looser environment and produces more open style fighters. More room for error.
If nothing else just look at the track record for wrestlers since the days of BJJ loosing its mystery. That alone should say all it needs to. Matt Hughes (granted he learned submissions) went an entire career without really needing to learn striking and was dominant until just recently. Chucky was a high level wrestler. Jens was as well (high school level though) Timmy's just big.
A significant number of top strikers had wrestling backgrounds.
The ground control top position scoring is anything but compensated by standups.
The only arguement that could throw all I stated out the window would be the arguement that MMA ihas become a new pro wrestling for all that collegiate talent that wants competition and top level strikers don't want to lean the ground game. Boxers hardly have any motive to take a paycut and kickboxers take a huge risk in their careers.
That would be all I could say to go along with you.
Last edited 7/14/08 11:23PM by seanfu
Edit note/reason: n/a
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Post #4 7/14/08 11:20:34PM
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RMFG_187
MMA Sensei
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Career record: 113-78
Season: 22-18 (#1923)
Location: Toronto, Canada
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IMO no, i think its an even playing field, but I can understand the argument that it is. The rules favor Strikers in the stand ups, and breaking up the clinch. But the way bouts are scored do favor Wrestlers too. We have seen way too many fights where a fighter does the "lay n pray" and win the fight because of Octogon Control. IMO If u take down an opponent, u should stay active.
Rules are ok, just the way points are awarded to wrestlers for TD's and Octagon Control needs to be changed. They should find out how much everything is worth. Like how a TD compares to a well landed combo, or Sub attempt compared to GnP, so that if a wrestler gets a TD, but is out worked on the bottom, we can really find out who should win a round. ( a bit confusing, but just imagine a strike counts for a certain amount of points, and a TD counts for another amount of points) dunno im a bit drunk right now so ill read it tomorro and see if I made sense
BTW a little off topic but I just remembered. Do ya'll think they should have compustats like they have in Boxing? (its where they count strikes thrown and landed, and the
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Post #5 7/15/08 3:54:55AM
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Laying down the beats
Career record: 175-137
Season: 20-20 (#2314)
Location: Canada
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Posted by seanfu
Also, look at cage vs ring, in the cage, fighters make one mistake and can be done, such as a takedown or tight ko. The ring seems to be a little more of a looser environment and produces more open style fighters. More room for error.
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What do you mean by more room for error? The ring is a smaller area. 
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Post #6 7/15/08 9:44:33AM
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MMA Sensei
Career record: 202-113
Season: 26-12 (#241)
Location: Champion City
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Posted by Rush
Most people that think UFC rules favour wrestlers will probably comment on the octagon itself.
Actually, that wasn't the first thing that came to my mind. The "10-Point Must" scoring system and the judges who employ it are the biggest question mark for me.
The three biggest points of contention seem to be:
1. Does the scoring system count takedowns too heavily? Everyone who saw Penn-vs-GSP probably recalls Penn knocking the crap out of St. Pierre for the first round and then getting taken down repeatedly for the next ten minutes.
2. How does the scoring system count failed submission attempts? With (kick)boxing, you can give a guy a point for landing a punch, even if the punch doesn't inflict a lot of damage. In the latter sense, the punch "failed", but it's understood that the cumulative effect of many punches can make a difference, even if any individual blow didn't "do" anything. What about submission attempts? Is escaping a submission worth a point? Merely attempting a submission can't be enough, just as you don't get a point for throwing a punch, it has to land.
3. Does having top position on the ground count as "Octagon control"? For a wrestler, it does, but a BJJ fighter might be perfectly fine fighting from his back. I often tell friends who don't know MMA that if Fighter A is on top and Fighter B is on his back, the fight is even-Steven (Penn-vs-St. Pierre or Hughes-vs-Penn are good examples). However, a scoring system can't vary based on whether an individual fighter is a wrestler or a BJJ fighter. Look at GSP-vs-Koscheck. We knew that GSP was controlling that fight, but how did we know?
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Post #7 7/15/08 10:52:45AM
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Laying down the beats
Career record: 175-137
Season: 20-20 (#2314)
Location: Canada
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(1) I posted an article a long long time ago where an MMA judge explained how scoring is done. In a nutshell, if most of the round is on the ground, then ground control and takedowns will carry more weight than stand-up.
(2) this I don't know and agree that it tough to gauge. One thing to add to what you were saying is that is a failed submission attempt due to the aggressor's poor skills or is it a testimant to good defence of the defender?
(3) I think so, see blurb about article in (1)
Though I agree that the scoring system has to be changed. Because it is based on boxing one could make the arguement that it favours stand-up fighters, but if that is the case, it is not by much.
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Post #8 7/15/08 11:26:07AM
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MMA Sensei
Career record: 202-113
Season: 26-12 (#241)
Location: Champion City
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Posted by Rush
(1) I posted an article a long long time ago where an MMA judge explained how scoring is done. In a nutshell, if most of the round is on the ground, then ground control and takedowns will carry more weight than stand-up.
(2) this I don't know and agree that it tough to gauge. One thing to add to what you were saying is that is a failed submission attempt due to the aggressor's poor skills or is it a testimant to good defence of the defender?
(3) I think so, see blurb about article in (1)
So it sounds like the answer is "yes, UFC rules favor wrestlers."
Judging submission attempts against submission defense is a bit like evaluating a pitcher against a hitter in baseball. It's a "zero sum" equation where the truly decisive outcomes (a home run or a strikeout) aren't the norm. Knowing whether a hitter hit a "good" pitch or the pitcher made a mistake mostly comes down to being familiar with the game. Fortunately for baseball, the winners aren't declared by the judges.
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"Don't start that again. Lance Hunt wears glasses. Captain Amazing _doesn't_ wear glasses."
"He takes them off when he transforms."
"That doesn't make any sense. He wouldn't be able to see."
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Post #9 7/15/08 11:52:25AM
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Laying down the beats
Career record: 175-137
Season: 20-20 (#2314)
Location: Canada
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Posted by AchillesHeel
So it sounds like the answer is "yes, UFC rules favor wrestlers."
Judging submission attempts against submission defense is a bit like evaluating a pitcher against a hitter in baseball. It's a "zero sum" equation where the truly decisive outcomes (a home run or a strikeout) aren't the norm. Knowing whether a hitter hit a "good" pitch or the pitcher made a mistake mostly comes down to being familiar with the game. Fortunately for baseball, the winners aren't declared by the judges.
I wouldn't say that. How did you reach that conclusion?
As for the "zero sum" equation. I think it is largely circumstantial and that even experienced judges can't really tell a lot of the time. Look at these guys that go for half assed guillotines. Some guys can sub with arm in and most can't. Does that mean that all fighters that try to choke with an arm in get credit for the sub attempt?
The same thing happens with striking. You know how many times I see a fighter throw knees, and hear Rogan and the crowd going ooh and ahh as if they were connecting, yet the guy is only kneeing the forearm of the opponent? Many many times. I don't know how the judges score those, but IMO they shouldn't be given credit for blocked strikes (unless that is all the fight is composed of - then it would be an issue of aggression)
As for the baseball analogy (I'm not a fan of baseball) I always thought of judging a pitcher's and hitter's ability was mutually exclusive. A pitcher striking guys out gets credit and a hitter not hitting well is "just not hitting well"
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Post #10 7/15/08 12:05:15PM
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Standup Guy
Career record: 193-113
Season: 29-11 (#333)
Location: PA
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I think the rules are pretty even for both. The one point I feel that needs to be made is this:
A great striker needs on shot and he gets to start in his position at the start of each round.
The BJJ practitioner has it a little harder in that he has to get the fight to the ground, but once there he can finish it with one move.
The wrestler has to control the entire match to win.
All in all, I say the rules are pretty darn good. I would like to see knees allowed to downed opponents.
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Post #11 7/15/08 1:56:21PM
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MMA Sensei
Career record: 202-113
Season: 26-12 (#241)
Location: Champion City
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Posted by Rush
I wouldn't say that. How did you reach that conclusion?
Because wrestlers as a group have far superior takedowns, takedown defense, and position control than BJJ fighters. If a takedown scores a point, and having top position scores a point, that naturally favors the wrestler.
Also, if you "split the difference" and award points equally for attempting and escaping submissions, then a BJJ guy is barely breaking even. Personally, I'd like to see a rule against awarding any points for escaping a submission attempt. Judges would then only need to decide whether or not to award a point for the submission attempt. A submission attempt would therefore be a point for the guy who threw it, or no point at all, just like a punch or a kick. It's entirely possible that some judges actually do it this way; I'd like to see it be the acknowledged standard.
Posted by Rush
As for the "zero sum" equation. I think it is largely circumstantial and that even experienced judges can't really tell a lot of the time. Look at these guys that go for half assed guillotines. Some guys can sub with arm in and most can't. Does that mean that all fighters that try to choke with an arm in get credit for the sub attempt?
Maybe you could declare that attempting a guillotine with an arm in is automatically a sub-standard submission attempt, and therefore not worth a point. If it happens to work anyway, then great. In baseball, you don't have to throw pitches in the Strike Zone. If you can goad a hitter into swinging at a bad pitch, then you're The Man, but it doesn't mean it wasn't a bad pitch. If the hitter doesn't swing at it, the umpire is obliged to call it a Ball.
Posted by Rush
The same thing happens with striking. You know how many times I see a fighter throw knees, and hear Rogan and the crowd going ooh and ahh as if they were connecting, yet the guy is only kneeing the forearm of the opponent? Many many times. I don't know how the judges score those, but IMO they shouldn't be given credit for blocked strikes (unless that is all the fight is composed of - then it would be an issue of aggression)
I agree. A strike needs to land to be worth a point.
Posted by Rush
As for the baseball analogy (I'm not a fan of baseball) I always thought of judging a pitcher's and hitter's ability was mutually exclusive.
Well, you try to separate their performances, but because every action - every pitch - is in fact an interaction between two people, a combination of two actions, it's sometimes hard to tell what's what.
Complicating matters is the fact that the result of the interaction - whether the hitter hits the ball or not - isn't always conclusive, partly because there are degrees of success. There's a pitcher for the Red Sox who throws what's called a "knuckle ball." A knuckle ball travels extremely slowly and in some ways is easier to hit than a fastball. However, players describe hitting a good knuckleball as "hitting a wet sponge" - you smash it as hard as you can, and it plops off your bat and rolls accommodatingly to an infielder who throws you out.
From one perspective, the hitter "defeated" the pitcher: He smashed the pitch. Yet, the pitcher did exactly what he was trying to do - get the hitter out. MMA is like a pitcher-hitter matchup, but without the rest of the game to tell us whether the hitter succeeded or not (whether he reached first base or not). If you isolate the hitter and the pitcher, the only decisive results are a strikeout (the pitcher won) or a home run (the batter won). Everything else is inconclusive.
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"Don't start that again. Lance Hunt wears glasses. Captain Amazing _doesn't_ wear glasses."
"He takes them off when he transforms."
"That doesn't make any sense. He wouldn't be able to see."
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Post #12 7/15/08 1:59:42PM
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Laying down the beats
Career record: 175-137
Season: 20-20 (#2314)
Location: Canada
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Posted by AchillesHeel
Because wrestlers as a group have far superior takedowns, takedown defense, and position control than BJJ fighters. If a takedown scores a point, and having top position scores a point, that naturally favors the wrestler.
Also, if you "split the difference" and award points equally for attempting and escaping submissions, then a BJJ guy is barely breaking even. Personally, I'd like to see a rule against awarding any points for escaping a submission attempt. Judges would then only need to decide whether or not to award a point for the submission attempt. A submission attempt would therefore be a point for the guy who threw it, or no point at all, just like a punch or a kick. It's entirely possible that some judges actually do it this way; I'd like to see it be the acknowledged standard.
Ah I see what you are saying here. I'm not one to support awarding points for attempted subs because it is even more subjective than striking. To me a number of sub attempts that see are no different than throwing a air jab to fake out your opponent. I can look like I am going for a kimura even though I have no chance in hell to secure it.
Where I stand is that ground control and aggression is equal to stand up control and aggression, which do not favour either, and really only go into the "aggression points" that are awarded.
I'm not really sure how the judges score it right now. Though the "trying to finish a fight" point in Pride would definitely fit your description of getting points for sub attempts. All in all it's a tough call.
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Post #13 7/15/08 2:25:40PM
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Pookie
Heavyweight Champ
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Career record: 181-84
Season: 30-10 (#171)
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Yes, wrestlers can win a fight while inflicting little to no damage just by being on top of a guy.
If this is what wins you the fihgt, something is very wrong in the system.
Its not so much favored over strikers per say, but definitely favored over Bjj guys. Top position wins fights when in reality they may not be the ones controlling the action.
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Post #14 7/15/08 2:44:46PM
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MMA Sensei
Career record: 202-113
Season: 26-12 (#241)
Location: Champion City
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Posted by Rush
Ah I see what you are saying here. I'm not one to support awarding points for attempted subs because it is even more subjective than striking. To me a number of sub attempts that see are no different than throwing a air jab to fake out your opponent. I can look like I am going for a kimura even though I have no chance in hell to secure it.
Right, and this is where the judges' fluency in BJJ is a potentially decisive issue. If they can't tell the difference between a "real" submission attempt and a dumb one, they can't possibly be relied upon to award a point when one is warranted. Wrestling in MMA is much easier to score. In fact, you don't even need to know anything about wrestling, because takedowns and who's on top are both obvious.
Posted by Rush
Where I stand is that ground control and aggression is equal to stand up control and aggression, which do not favour either, and really only go into the "aggression points" that are awarded.
I suppose you could get away from awarding points for individual actions altogether. I think that's how the Pride FC scoring system worked, iirc.
Posted by Rush
I'm not really sure how the judges score it right now. Though the "trying to finish a fight" point in Pride would definitely fit your description of getting points for sub attempts. All in all it's a tough call.
"Trying to finish the fight" could serve that purpose, yes, so long as it was evenly applied to the standup part of a fight. For example, I think Rampage would have defeated Forrest Griffin under PRIDE rules, because his punches were thrown with bad intentions, while Forrest was trying to score points (and that's not taking anything away from Forrest, I think he played it smart).
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"Don't start that again. Lance Hunt wears glasses. Captain Amazing _doesn't_ wear glasses."
"He takes them off when he transforms."
"That doesn't make any sense. He wouldn't be able to see."
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Post #15 7/15/08 2:45:26PM
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