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JunCTion

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help me out here. i understand ranking the fighters in their weight classes, but what is the criteria used for ranking fighters pound for pound and why would some non belt holders be in front of belt hloders?

Last edited 2/20/07 3:48PM server time by JunCTion
Edit note/reason: n/a

Post #1   2/20/07 3:47:31PM   

JimiMak

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This is the single most debatable way to rank. Completely subjective. The essential idea behind pound for pound is the idea of taking out weight advantage. Presents questions like "Could BJ beat Fedor if they were the same size?" It looks mainly at who is really better and more well rounded. A guy like "Kid" doesn't even fall into a weight class we rank (unless he got lumped with lw, not sure), but is on the pound for pound list. Often times ppl will place BJ just as high or higher on a list like this because of his inherent skill. Even though at WW he is 3 or lower (I think 4 on our list) and has never really done much at LW (his "natural" weight?) Course with a guy like him you can see that he did just as well against Machida as against St. Pierre.

I'm sure you'll get a lot of responses, with a lot of different answers. But that's the thing about your question is that most ppl will tell you that most other ppl don't even know what the term means. It's really up to how you define it for your rankings, which is great about this place, we all have our own. Hope this helped some.

Post #2   2/20/07 4:56:20PM   

JunCTion

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Posted by JimiMak

This is the single most debatable way to rank. Completely subjective. The essential idea behind pound for pound is the idea of taking out weight advantage. Presents questions like "Could BJ beat Fedor if they were the same size?" It looks mainly at who is really better and more well rounded. A guy like "Kid" doesn't even fall into a weight class we rank (unless he got lumped with lw, not sure), but is on the pound for pound list. Often times ppl will place BJ just as high or higher on a list like this because of his inherent skill. Even though at WW he is 3 or lower (I think 4 on our list) and has never really done much at LW (his "natural" weight?) Course with a guy like him you can see that he did just as well against Machida as against St. Pierre.

I'm sure you'll get a lot of responses, with a lot of different answers. But that's the thing about your question is that most ppl will tell you that most other ppl don't even know what the term means. It's really up to how you define it for your rankings, which is great about this place, we all have our own. Hope this helped some.



thanks JimiMak. i wasnt sure if there was some scientific theory behind it. so its basically those in the media or at least the people on each site (MMANEWS / MMAWEEKLY/ETC) that put their personal opinions into how they rank fighters.

Post #3   2/20/07 5:43:55PM   

OB_Juan

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Yeah man, this is pretty much all a matter of opinion. For me I weigh things like when a fighter COULD be fighting at a lower weight but decides to step it up for better competition. Kid, Aoki, Melendez are all good examples of that. Or also when a fighter is completely dominant at a certain weight (like the way GSP just handed Matt's ass to him).

Post #4   2/20/07 5:55:03PM   

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BTW, I found the thread title slightly confusing. The common abbreviation is P4P.

Post #5   2/20/07 5:57:00PM   

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yeah, i gotta say I only came on to see what it meant.

Post #6   2/20/07 8:51:12PM   

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so is there a scientific theory behind P4P or is that a matter of opinion too?
could i have said lb4lb or is that bad too?

Post #7   2/21/07 1:04:35AM   

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The way I use it is say you have a shrinking ray and a bigger ray and you make everyone in MMA the same weight... who is number 1?

Any physical domination is left out in the cold. Diaz could probably out reach big Tim and Sherk can put a wrestling clinic on Sapp. P4P is a nice little fantasy world where talent and skill topple over physical dominance.

Post #8   2/21/07 12:19:30PM   

madmarck

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Posted by JimiMak

yeah, i gotta say I only came on to see what it meant.


Yeah i still dont understand this thread. IT mystifies me to the point of sleep.

Post #9   2/21/07 12:25:59PM   

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This is relevant to the thread, a post made by Betro so props to him.

"Another thread got me thinking about this and I’ve always been interested/tried to keep up with pfp rankings so here are mine, tell me what you think.

1. George St. Pierre - Scored a dominant victory over former top 2 pfp fighter matt Hughes which is enough to put clearly put him ahead of Fedor (the man previously contending with Hughes for the top spot in my mind). Fedor is impressive in many ways but he has never fought another fighter near the top 5 pfp (weak hw division) much less scored a dominating victory over one. With his dominating victory over Hughes he avenges his only loss, and has nearly cleared out one of, if not the strongest, divisions in MMA with wins over Karo, BJ Penn, Trigg, Sherk, and Miller. GSP has a very well rounded game and is an explosive athlete with skills that would translate well to any weight class.

2. Fedor Emelianenko - Has dominated the hw division since beating the then #1 hw Nogueira, and looked nearly invincible doing it. Convincingly beat Nogueira again and the other top contender in the division, Crocop. Very well rounded and highly skilled in all areas, which is very rare for a hw. Very quick and explosive, with excellent cardio which is also rare at hw.

3. Matt Hughes - Before his loss to St. Pierre was probably #1 pfp in the world. Had a strangle hold over the division until his rematch with St. Pierre, during which he had wins over Penn, St. Pierre, Trigg, Sherk, Sakurai, Newton, Riggs, Verissimo. Very strong wrestler with a very effective gnp and submission game and improving striking. Until his loss to St. Pierre, he seemed invincible, always found a way to win, and had all the intangibles.

4. Shinichi "BJ" Kojima - Just scored a first round submission victory over then top 5 pfp fighter Mamoru Yamaguchi who he had previously fought to a draw with. Holds another dominating victory over a top 5 123 lb fighter in Setsu Iguchi. Will be fighting another top 5 123 pounder in Yasuhiro Urushitani whom he formerly drew with, in a fight where he could further solidify is pfp rank or possibly move further up. Fights in a weight class that is very talented at the top and has a very well rounded game. Excellent wrestler with very good boxing skills. Has very good guard passing skills and has a tendency of chocking out opponents including Mamura, who was thought to have some of the best submission defense in the world.

5. Gilbert Melendez - An undefeated fighter and former top 5 fw (wins over Sato, Uematsu, and Takaya) and now a top 5 lw after beating powerhouse Tatsuya Kawajiri (also lw victories over Obiya and Guia). There are very few fighters in MMA history who have achieved top 5 rankings in multiple weight classes and he is one of them, and has done so early in his career. Has yet to taste defeat, though his bout with Kawajiri was hotly contested. Relentless fighter who always pushes the pace wearing his opponents out. Very good wrestler and has acquired very strong boxing skills. Excellent submission defense as well.

6. Shinya Aoki - Is currently competing at two weight classes lw and ww, the two strongest divisions in MMA. Is a top 5 ww with wins over Wisniewski, Hironaka, and Kikuchi. Is a top 10 lw with wins over Black and Hansen. Possibly the most impressive submission game in MMA, and excellent judo throws as well. Has striking well suited to his tall frame and is effective at getting him to the clinch to set up takedowns and throws.

7. Takanori Gomi - Outside his two bouts with Aurelio which he split 1-1, he has absolutely dominated some of the best lws in the world including Kawajiri, Ishida, and Sakurai who were all top 5 lws when Gomi demolished them. Currently the #1 in the world in the most competitive, deepest division in MMA. Iron chin and excellent boxing with big time power. Has a relentless aggressive style and is a great finisher. Has shown vulnerability off his back.

8. Mamoru Yamaguchi - Formally top 5 pfp before being choked out by BJ. Has quality wins in three weight classes, 123, 132, and 143. Was formerly shooto champion at 123 and 132. Holds wins over Baret Yoshida, Yasuhiro Urushitani, Junji Ikoma, Setsu Iguchi, among others. Excellent and well rounded striking game. Lethal from the clinch and outside and uses a large variety of strikes. Very good escape ability and submission defense. Also has a very good wrestling.

9. Chuck Liddell - The #1 lhw in the world is on a very impressive run with dominating knock out wins over Couture, Ortiz and Babalu. Very effective striking with massive ko power. Excellent takedown defense as well. Will soon get a chance to avenge his only unavenged loss vs Rampage.

10 . Akitoshi Hokazono - The #1 132 pounder in the world. Though he fights in one of the weaker divisions in MMA he has yet to be defeated and holds a number of impressive victories including Osawa x2, Galvao, and Mikami. Hopefully will fight Ryota Matsune soon to solidify his claim as the undisputed #1 fighter at 132 lbs. Very strong fighter with a well rounded sill set.



Now the 2 big omissions everyone will notice are BJ Penn and Kid, who are generally considered top pfp fighters. When i looked at what they had accomplished both of there pfp achievements seemed much less material and solid than other fighters.

Penn is three years removed from his impressive 3 weight class run with Gomi, Hughes, and Rodrigo. He is 1-3 since then with his only win being over and ancient Renzo Graicie. You could say his losses were vs two top 5 pfp fighters both 1 weight class above his natural weight, and a lhw. All these fights were competitive as well. But how much credit do you give a guy for almost beating really good fighters. If you lack a single quality win in the past 2 1/2 years you don’t stack up very well to other top 10 pfp fighters. Penn has all the potential and skills to re-ascend the rankings to where he once stood, and will get a chance with his return to lw in the UFC.

Kid Yamamoto is an amazing fighter. he could fight at 132 but has fought at 143 and 154 and only suffered one loss. but how much credit can you give someone for where they could be fighting? He is four years removed from his run to being a top 2 fw, and no matter how impressive it is that he still wins at lw he has never beaten a top 10 fighter at that weight. He has an amazing skill set and is and incredible athlete who i would take in a fight over anyone at 132 or 143, but he has to get away from k1 and start fighting serious competition and fight more regularly for me to rank him pfp again."

Slothman's post over at BK. He had a good reason to keep Kid out.

Post #10   2/21/07 12:26:01PM   

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Posted by madmarck


Posted by JimiMak

yeah, i gotta say I only came on to see what it meant.


Yeah i still dont understand this thread. IT mystifies me to the point of sleep.



hey, be nice. i made an error. besides, you havent even answered the question so how have you been on this thread long enough to fall asleep. answer the ? like a nice young man and than make fun of me.

Post #11   2/21/07 12:55:40PM   

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Pound for pound rankings mate.

Post #12   2/21/07 12:58:24PM   

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Posted by nate22

This is relevant to the thread, a post made by Betro so props to him.

"Another thread got me thinking about this and I’ve always been interested/tried to keep up with pfp rankings so here are mine, tell me what you think.

1. George St. Pierre - Scored a dominant victory over former top 2 pfp fighter matt Hughes which is enough to put clearly put him ahead of Fedor (the man previously contending with Hughes for the top spot in my mind). Fedor is impressive in many ways but he has never fought another fighter near the top 5 pfp (weak hw division) much less scored a dominating victory over one. With his dominating victory over Hughes he avenges his only loss, and has nearly cleared out one of, if not the strongest, divisions in MMA with wins over Karo, BJ Penn, Trigg, Sherk, and Miller. GSP has a very well rounded game and is an explosive athlete with skills that would translate well to any weight class.

2. Fedor Emelianenko - Has dominated the hw division since beating the then #1 hw Nogueira, and looked nearly invincible doing it. Convincingly beat Nogueira again and the other top contender in the division, Crocop. Very well rounded and highly skilled in all areas, which is very rare for a hw. Very quick and explosive, with excellent cardio which is also rare at hw.

3. Matt Hughes - Before his loss to St. Pierre was probably #1 pfp in the world. Had a strangle hold over the division until his rematch with St. Pierre, during which he had wins over Penn, St. Pierre, Trigg, Sherk, Sakurai, Newton, Riggs, Verissimo. Very strong wrestler with a very effective gnp and submission game and improving striking. Until his loss to St. Pierre, he seemed invincible, always found a way to win, and had all the intangibles.

4. Shinichi "BJ" Kojima - Just scored a first round submission victory over then top 5 pfp fighter Mamoru Yamaguchi who he had previously fought to a draw with. Holds another dominating victory over a top 5 123 lb fighter in Setsu Iguchi. Will be fighting another top 5 123 pounder in Yasuhiro Urushitani whom he formerly drew with, in a fight where he could further solidify is pfp rank or possibly move further up. Fights in a weight class that is very talented at the top and has a very well rounded game. Excellent wrestler with very good boxing skills. Has very good guard passing skills and has a tendency of chocking out opponents including Mamura, who was thought to have some of the best submission defense in the world.

5. Gilbert Melendez - An undefeated fighter and former top 5 fw (wins over Sato, Uematsu, and Takaya) and now a top 5 lw after beating powerhouse Tatsuya Kawajiri (also lw victories over Obiya and Guia). There are very few fighters in MMA history who have achieved top 5 rankings in multiple weight classes and he is one of them, and has done so early in his career. Has yet to taste defeat, though his bout with Kawajiri was hotly contested. Relentless fighter who always pushes the pace wearing his opponents out. Very good wrestler and has acquired very strong boxing skills. Excellent submission defense as well.

6. Shinya Aoki - Is currently competing at two weight classes lw and ww, the two strongest divisions in MMA. Is a top 5 ww with wins over Wisniewski, Hironaka, and Kikuchi. Is a top 10 lw with wins over Black and Hansen. Possibly the most impressive submission game in MMA, and excellent judo throws as well. Has striking well suited to his tall frame and is effective at getting him to the clinch to set up takedowns and throws.

7. Takanori Gomi - Outside his two bouts with Aurelio which he split 1-1, he has absolutely dominated some of the best lws in the world including Kawajiri, Ishida, and Sakurai who were all top 5 lws when Gomi demolished them. Currently the #1 in the world in the most competitive, deepest division in MMA. Iron chin and excellent boxing with big time power. Has a relentless aggressive style and is a great finisher. Has shown vulnerability off his back.

8. Mamoru Yamaguchi - Formally top 5 pfp before being choked out by BJ. Has quality wins in three weight classes, 123, 132, and 143. Was formerly shooto champion at 123 and 132. Holds wins over Baret Yoshida, Yasuhiro Urushitani, Junji Ikoma, Setsu Iguchi, among others. Excellent and well rounded striking game. Lethal from the clinch and outside and uses a large variety of strikes. Very good escape ability and submission defense. Also has a very good wrestling.

9. Chuck Liddell - The #1 lhw in the world is on a very impressive run with dominating knock out wins over Couture, Ortiz and Babalu. Very effective striking with massive ko power. Excellent takedown defense as well. Will soon get a chance to avenge his only unavenged loss vs Rampage.

10 . Akitoshi Hokazono - The #1 132 pounder in the world. Though he fights in one of the weaker divisions in MMA he has yet to be defeated and holds a number of impressive victories including Osawa x2, Galvao, and Mikami. Hopefully will fight Ryota Matsune soon to solidify his claim as the undisputed #1 fighter at 132 lbs. Very strong fighter with a well rounded sill set.



Now the 2 big omissions everyone will notice are BJ Penn and Kid, who are generally considered top pfp fighters. When i looked at what they had accomplished both of there pfp achievements seemed much less material and solid than other fighters.

Penn is three years removed from his impressive 3 weight class run with Gomi, Hughes, and Rodrigo. He is 1-3 since then with his only win being over and ancient Renzo Graicie. You could say his losses were vs two top 5 pfp fighters both 1 weight class above his natural weight, and a lhw. All these fights were competitive as well. But how much credit do you give a guy for almost beating really good fighters. If you lack a single quality win in the past 2 1/2 years you don’t stack up very well to other top 10 pfp fighters. Penn has all the potential and skills to re-ascend the rankings to where he once stood, and will get a chance with his return to lw in the UFC.

Kid Yamamoto is an amazing fighter. he could fight at 132 but has fought at 143 and 154 and only suffered one loss. but how much credit can you give someone for where they could be fighting? He is four years removed from his run to being a top 2 fw, and no matter how impressive it is that he still wins at lw he has never beaten a top 10 fighter at that weight. He has an amazing skill set and is and incredible athlete who i would take in a fight over anyone at 132 or 143, but he has to get away from k1 and start fighting serious competition and fight more regularly for me to rank him pfp again."

Slothman's post over at BK. He had a good reason to keep Kid out.



good stuff. thats the first time ive seen rush in front of fedor but i agree with the logic. but shouldnt chuck be higher than 9 dew to the way he has been ending his fights

Post #13   2/21/07 1:02:04PM