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Submission (Strikes)

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How should Submission(strikes) be ruled?
Tko 34 77%
Submission 10 23%
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Kpro

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Posted by Pookie


Posted by Kpro

I disagree with the premise of the question as I've given it quite a bit of thought, and used to feel that way. The remedy is not to rule a Submission (Strikes) as a TKO and a TKO (Rear Naked Choke) as a Sub, as that is truly not the case by technicality.

The only proper remedy would be to choose Strikes or Hold as the finishing maneuver as that clearly differentiates the finish, whether they tap from Strikes or pass out from a Sub or not.



I understand, but why do we have to stick by it because its a technicality?



Technicality = Fact

Maybe I used the wrong wording.

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Post #16   3/2/08 3:47:55AM   

jiujitsufreak74

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Posted by Pookie


Posted by Kpro

I disagree with the premise of the question as I've given it quite a bit of thought, and used to feel that way. The remedy is not to rule a Submission (Strikes) as a TKO and a TKO (Rear Naked Choke) as a Sub, as that is truly not the case by technicality.

The only proper remedy would be to choose Strikes or Hold as the finishing maneuver as that clearly differentiates the finish, whether they tap from Strikes or pass out from a Sub or not.



I understand, but why do we have to stick by it because its a technicality?



well to put it simply...because it would just be flat out incorrect. the only way to solve this problem is to do what Kpro said and make the ending method (strikes, choke, etc...) although i wouldn't want that either. i am fine the way it is and i understand why you think what you think. but the fact remains is that it is still a submission and should still count as a submission. i realize that that is unpredictable in a fight whether the strikes will be a KO or a submission but you shouldn't classify it as something it isn't.

Post #17   3/2/08 3:51:57AM   

Pookie

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Posted by Kpro


Posted by Pookie


Posted by Kpro

I disagree with the premise of the question as I've given it quite a bit of thought, and used to feel that way. The remedy is not to rule a Submission (Strikes) as a TKO and a TKO (Rear Naked Choke) as a Sub, as that is truly not the case by technicality.

The only proper remedy would be to choose Strikes or Hold as the finishing maneuver as that clearly differentiates the finish, whether they tap from Strikes or pass out from a Sub or not.



I understand, but why do we have to stick by it because its a technicality?



Technicality = Fact

Maybe I used the wrong wording.



I disagree with you on the importance of a technicality, and would rather reward knowledge than luck regardless if it is not the actual term used because of a technicality(fact). I guess this is where we disagree, this is why a vote should be in place, since many people differ in opinions.

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Post #18   3/2/08 3:53:31AM   

Svartorm

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We've had this come up before, but here goes.

First off, some clarification. If a fighter goes unconcious, or has a limb break from a submission hold, it isn't a TKO, its a Technical Submission.

As for the argument of striking submissions, if this game was running around the first few UFCs, we'd have to have a rule on it as people used to tap from strikes all the time. Nowadays with the fighters being that much more hungry and getting used to getting hit in training, there is usually only two or three striking submissions a year in the top levels. If we switched it to a TKO, that opens a can of worms.

In Silva vs. Lutter, where he was in a triangle getting elbowed. Did he tap from the Triangle, or from the elbows? The way we have it, it doesn't matter because he tapped out, plain and simple.

The fact of the matter is, no matter what way we do it, someone is going to be unhappy.


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Post #19   3/2/08 4:32:33AM   

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Posted by Svartorm

We've had this come up before, but here goes.

First off, some clarification. If a fighter goes unconcious, or has a limb break from a submission hold, it isn't a TKO, its a Technical Submission.

As for the argument of striking submissions, if this game was running around the first few UFCs, we'd have to have a rule on it as people used to tap from strikes all the time. Nowadays with the fighters being that much more hungry and getting used to getting hit in training, there is usually only two or three striking submissions a year in the top levels. If we switched it to a TKO, that opens a can of worms.

In Silva vs. Lutter, where he was in a triangle getting elbowed. Did he tap from the Triangle, or from the elbows? The way we have it, it doesn't matter because he tapped out, plain and simple.

The fact of the matter is, no matter what way we do it, someone is going to be unhappy.




Thanks for the clarification on the Technical submission bit.

Silva vs. Lutter is a very good example, as Lutter said it was from the choke and its officially from strikes.

Wouldnt a poll be good to see how to make the least amount of people unhappy? It seems reasonable.
What is the can of worms, it seems like it would just be the opposite of what i had proposed. Again wouldnt a poll clarify which "can of worms" is bigger so to speak, the lesser of 2 evils.

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Post #20   3/2/08 4:45:53AM   

Svartorm

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But the way we do it now is the way its officially ruled, as per the Athletic Commisions that sanctioned the fight. On the official report, it will say:

"Diego Sanchez defeated David Biekenhenden via submission (strikes) at whatever time in Round 1."

If we change it, next time this happens, people will complain that the official ruling was for a striking submission, not a TKO. Either way, someone is unhappy, so we're leaving it the way it is.

The only thing that would make sense is the "Strike" and "Hold" finish that someone recommended, but then that leads to problems with injury and corner stoppage, which happen more than striking submissions by far.

This is the 1st striking submission of the year, and I can only think of three from last year, those being Overeem vs. Buentello, Espirianti vs. Osterbeck, and Cantrell vs. Slice, all of which were in the secondary league anyways, if featured at all. This is the first striking submission in the Primary League in 24 events (Emerson vs. Maynard would have been a Submission (slam), but it was ruled a NC), so I think its safe to say this is a non-issue.

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Post #21   3/2/08 6:07:54AM   

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Posted by MikeBillotto






But only because i lost points for that fight because of it.
I'm pretty sure i'm not to bothered!

Last edited 3/2/08 8:43AM server time by SmileR
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Post #22   3/2/08 8:21:30AM   

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Thanks for clearing things up Svartorm. Yes, it is correct and best to go by the official decision. I agree with you and the current system is fine, I just see both sides as correct in their own right. Good to see that this stayed civil.

Post #23   3/2/08 9:50:37AM   

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Submission(Strikes) should be a TKO(Tapout).

Submission should be a choke/joint lock. TKO should be anything to do with strikes.

Post #24   3/2/08 2:53:00PM   

Whispering_Death

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Posted by Svartorm

But the way we do it now is the way its officially ruled, as per the Athletic Commisions that sanctioned the fight. On the official report, it will say:

"Diego Sanchez defeated David Biekenhenden via submission (strikes) at whatever time in Round 1."

If we change it, next time this happens, people will complain that the official ruling was for a striking submission, not a TKO. Either way, someone is unhappy, so we're leaving it the way it is.

The only thing that would make sense is the "Strike" and "Hold" finish that someone recommended, but then that leads to problems with injury and corner stoppage, which happen more than striking submissions by far.

This is the 1st striking submission of the year, and I can only think of three from last year, those being Overeem vs. Buentello, Espirianti vs. Osterbeck, and Cantrell vs. Slice, all of which were in the secondary league anyways, if featured at all. This is the first striking submission in the Primary League in 24 events (Emerson vs. Maynard would have been a Submission (slam), but it was ruled a NC), so I think its safe to say this is a non-issue.



I understand why you do it and that's cool. However, take a stand and do what is right, not just what the Athletic Comission says. MMAPlayground is a site made by MMA fans for MMA fans. I would love to see you guys make it so that the submission(strikes) technicality is where it should be, in the TKO box.

Post #25   3/2/08 2:55:36PM   

Svartorm

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We're taking a stand for the thing that makes the most sense, which is leaving it the way it is. If something only comes up once every 250 fights, its not worth changing the rules on.

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Post #26   3/3/08 3:19:11AM   

LightsOut33093

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i like the way now, just follow the official ruling
submission (strikes) is submission
tko (chokeout) is tko

Post #27   3/3/08 5:17:40PM   

CornishMMA

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Only just saw this thread and its similar to one i just bumped, i agree with the conclusion but i do still believe it shows a bias to picking submission, and i will definately do that if i think a fighter will win by GnP, cos the chance of the guy tapping or giving up a sub (as often happens) is most likely to get points on here

Posted by LightsOut33093

i like the way now, just follow the official ruling
submission (strikes) is submission
tko (chokeout) is tko


LOL dudes that NOT the way they do it, those are the 2 opposing outcomes if you think about it, and unfairly they are both ruled as submission, strikes should replace ko/tko and submissons be specified as sub holds!

Im sure submission from Injury while standing is still given on here as KO! Has that happened recently? TUF4 finale just before we started here. Would Spratt over Lawler been scored as submission then?

I actually picked Diego by decision but was funnily enough going to pick him by KO cos i thought he would GnP him, his record is mostly those finishes with only 1 ufc proper sub i think, and forgetting all of this i would have missed out, in that type of fight picking submission is so much more likely to get the points, 3 ways to win

Changing it would make it more accurate, people would be unhappy but once it was corrected and everyone knew it would make for a better game imo but oh well, the points scoring for faves/dogs is much more important i think so check that thread out!

Last edited 3/13/08 12:06PM server time by CornishMMA
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Post #28   3/13/08 11:57:25AM   

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Posted by CornishMMA

Only just saw this thread and its similar to one i just bumped, i agree with the conclusion but i do still believe it shows a bias to picking submission, and i will definately do that if i think a fighter will win by GnP, cos the chance of the guy tapping or giving up a sub (as often happens) is most likely to get points on here

Posted by LightsOut33093

i like the way now, just follow the official ruling
submission (strikes) is submission
tko (chokeout) is tko


LOL dudes that NOT the way they do it, those are the 2 opposing outcomes if you think about it, and unfairly they are both ruled as submission, strikes should replace ko/tko and submissons be specified as sub holds!

Im sure submission from Injury while standing is still given on here as KO! Has that happened recently? TUF4 finale just before we started here. Would Spratt over Lawler been scored as submission then?

I actually picked Diego by decision but was funnily enough going to pick him by KO cos i thought he would GnP him, his record is mostly those finishes with only 1 ufc proper sub i think, and forgetting all of this i would have missed out, in that type of fight picking submission is so much more likely to get the points, 3 ways to win

Changing it would make it more accurate, people would be unhappy but once it was corrected and everyone knew it would make for a better game imo but oh well, the points scoring for faves/dogs is much more important i think so check that thread out!



Well said.

Post #29   3/13/08 10:09:27PM   
 
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