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The strange case of B.J. Penn.

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AchillesHeel

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I was browsing the Top 10 Rankings that are being assembled here, and I noticed something odd: B.J. is ranked #8 on the P4P list, #4 on the Welterweight list, and #6 on the Lightweight list.

Penn is rated ahead of Matt Hughes on the "P4P" list (Hughes is 10th), but is behind Hughes on the Welterweight list. On the Lightweights list, Penn is ranked behind Aoki, Sherk, Sakurai, and Melendez, none of whom appear on the "P4P" list at all. None of that math makes any sense, and yet it's hard to say that people are completely up a tree.

From reading comments around the web, Penn seems to draw a lot of ire for having lost his last two fights. That those fights were against two of the best fighters in the sport - guys generally regarded as #1 & #2 in the division - and that Penn very nearly won both of those fights aren't relevant factors for everyone. For some people, a loss is a loss, and if you're 0-2 you can't be considered "good", sorry kid, better luck next time.

There's also the weight class dilemma. Personally, I rate B.J. as the #2 Lightweight in the world right now, (almost) sight unseen. Some of you will understandably call me a whack-job for rating him so highly in a division he hasn't touched in a long time. Personally, I think he'd take guys like Kawajiri and Melendez to school. Of course, I also rate B.J. as the 3rd-best Welterweight. Want to break Diego's winning streak? Give him to B.J.

I'm probably making some people insane right about now, aren't I?

Added confusion comes from the new and casual UFC fans I talked about in the other thread. B.J.'s absence from the UFC corresponded neatly with the explosion in popularity brought on by The Ultimate Fighter. By the time of B.J.'s return to the Octagon, half the audience had never heard of him before.

It wasn't long ago that people talked about Penn as the best fighter in the world, pound-for-pound. Of course, things have moved very fast in this sport. And I think they'll continue to move fast. I expect Penn to be the UFC Lightweight champion sometime next Autumn, after he wraps up Pulver.

Oh, and Penn has already punked Gomi once; I think he could do it again. Now who wouldn't want to see that fight?

Post #1   2/16/07 8:29:34PM   

hippysmacker

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I think Bj is desreving of his ranking's for now. Still, it would be great to see him stay in shape and completely dedicate himself to fighting ( and hard core training)full time. My biggest fear for him is that he could end up like Vitor. I beleive Vitor's problem's are mental however. Bj's are motivation IMO. He has he ability to be the best at 2 weight classes to me,and I hope he dedicates himself to that purpose.

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Post #2   2/16/07 8:34:44PM   

DirtySouthBoss

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To me BJ is the best in the world Pound 4 Pound. He has Gassed in his last 2 fights but the fact thst he is considered in the top 3 for WW only solidifies the fact that he can challange for 150 whenever he wants to. He has beaten Gomi and given GSP the best fight of his life.

Post #3   2/16/07 8:37:41PM   

OB_Juan

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I started a similar thread in the Lounge since rankings encompass more than just Pride and UFC.

http://www.mmaplayground.com/forums/topic1504-1.html

As for most of your logic, I think it's terribly flawed. Just because you THINK such and such fighter is capable of beating whomever doesn't mean jack.

Last edited 2/16/07 8:57PM server time by OB_Juan
Edit note/reason: n/a

Post #4   2/16/07 8:56:07PM   

hippysmacker

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Posted by OB_Juan

I started a similar thread in the Lounge since rankings encompass more than just Pride and UFC.

http://www.mmaplayground.com/forums/topic1504-1.html

As for most of your logic, I think it's terribly flawed. Just because you THINK such and such fighter is capable of beating whomever doesn't mean jack.




That's your opinion. These are just opinions. A fact would be saying water is wet. No matter who has ( or hasn't) flawed logic it's not worth getting riled up about . Enjoy the discussions, but keep it good fun. Thanks

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“Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie ,cheat ,or steal.for selfish gain. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found.”
The Iron Code

Post #5   2/16/07 9:04:38PM   

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I don't understand why BJ is ranked #8 for (current) P4P and in both welter- and lightweight division. He moved down to lightweight so he should be considered a lightweight fighter.

Although Penn has the potential to be a top P4P fighter, he has not shown us this in his latest fights. I will admit that he came very close to winning his recent fights, but the fact of the matter is that he lost.

Oh, and for people who think Penn is out of shape, he is not. He only gassed in the St. Pierre fight. His ribs got fractured in the Hughes fight, making it unbearable to breathe, so he did not gas.

Post #6   2/16/07 9:05:22PM   

OB_Juan

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Posted by MMA

I don't understand why BJ is ranked #8 for (current) P4P and in both welter- and lightweight division. He moved down to lightweight so he should be considered a lightweight fighter.

Although Penn has the potential to be a top P4P fighter, he has not shown us this in his latest fights. I will admit that he came very close to winning his recent fights, but the fact of the matter is that he lost.

Oh, and for people who think Penn is out of shape, he is not. He only gassed in the St. Pierre fight. His ribs got fractured in the Hughes fight, making it unbearable to breathe, so he did not gas.



I agree but I kind of disagree at the same time. IMO he shouldn't be considered a LW fighter until he actually competes there again. Not just because it's been announced that he is "supposed" to be there. IMO he's a WW until he actually makes 155 lbs and gets another fight under his belt in which case he would no longer be considered for WW rankings.

A lot of fighters change weights. Hell, Shinya Aoki is probably more deserving to be ranked in EITHER division than BJ is.

As for the P4P, those don't really mean a whole lot IMO. That kind of thing is much more SUBjective than divisional rankings which should be primarily OBjective or based on recent accomplishments.

Post #7   2/16/07 9:13:36PM   

OB_Juan

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Posted by hippysmacker


Posted by OB_Juan

I started a similar thread in the Lounge since rankings encompass more than just Pride and UFC.

http://www.mmaplayground.com/forums/topic1504-1.html

As for most of your logic, I think it's terribly flawed. Just because you THINK such and such fighter is capable of beating whomever doesn't mean jack.




That's your opinion. These are just opinions. A fact would be saying water is wet. No matter who has ( or hasn't) flawed logic it's not worth getting riled up about . Enjoy the discussions, but keep it good fun. Thanks



Oh, I AM having fun, man. I'm a rankings nut.

Post #8   2/16/07 9:14:46PM   

hippysmacker

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LOL, it's all good then.

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The Iron Code

Post #9   2/16/07 9:15:30PM   

OB_Juan

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Posted by hippysmacker

LOL, it's all good then.



Yeah man. Rankings are something I could banter about for hours. Actually, I HAVE bantered about rankings for hours. Sometimes if I sound harsh it's only because I'm passionate about it. Nothing personal to anybody.

Post #10   2/16/07 9:22:37PM   

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BJ still is an excellent fighter but 3 years ago he was something else, he was a monster. His vicious beating over Gomi, and his win over Hughes was evidence in of itself but I hope he rebounds, seems like a really cool guy.

Post #11   2/16/07 10:26:58PM   

OB_Juan

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Posted by Reignofterror

BJ still is an excellent fighter but 3 years ago he was something else, he was a monster. His vicious beating over Gomi, and his win over Hughes was evidence in of itself but I hope he rebounds, seems like a really cool guy.



But do you think he deserves his current rankings?

I also really like BJ. There are very few fighters on the planet w/ his natural abilities. The nickname "The Prodigy" is absolutely perfect for him. The fact is he hasn't competed at LW since 2003 and hasn't won at WW since 2004.

The dude could certainly be a threat at either weight but he needs to get his act together and stick to one division and get some solid wins before being ranked as such. That is all I am saying.

Post #12   2/16/07 10:54:36PM   

DirtySouthBoss

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The fact that BJ gets the respect that he does now has to stand for something. I know that endurence has been an issue but overall its hard to argue about how he gets down. Hit striking and flexability is above and beyond everyone in WW and LW. I feel that if you count his recent loses then you are disrespecting his true talent.

Post #13   2/16/07 11:41:11PM   

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Posted by DirtySouthBoss

The fact that BJ gets the respect that he does now has to stand for something. I know that endurence has been an issue but overall its hard to argue about how he gets down. Hit striking and flexability is above and beyond everyone in WW and LW. I feel that if you count his recent loses then you are disrespecting his true talent.



It's not about his recent losses. When is the last time he got a freakin win in either div? It's been YEARS. Point is he's ranked in 2 divisions that are full of talented fighters that have proven themselves many times over but he's still getting love from wins 3 or 4 years ago. That's just WRONG and delusional. Might as well rank Rickson as the #1 HW AND P4P in that case.

I think he COULD be ranked in either div but right now there's absolutely no proof to justify it. In the meantime it discredits fighters that have been busting their asses bating good competition in said divisions.

Post #14   2/17/07 3:46:31AM   

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The BJ Penn dilemma is intersting.
In the welterweight division, one must rank him below Hughes and GSP because of the losses.
Yes, he did defeat Gomi, the hands down best lightweight fighter in the world, but nowadays BJ is fighting as a welterweight, so that is where we must rank him.
I believe that a well-conditioned BJ will decisively beat any fighter, welter or lightweight.
That is why he is so high on my P4P list.
BJ may be a jerk for not being conditioned enough for his last few fights. But you cannot deny his skills. No legitimate ground fighter has shown the striking prowess that BJ has.
His BJJ skills are all to obvious. Besides Nogueira, no BJJ fighter has presented such threatening boxing skills.
Just look at Mat Hughes. Hughes picks EVERYONE up. If he gets your leg, you will end up on your back. Hughes has done that to so many string fighter. But when you see Hughes get BJ's leg, and then BJ dance and avoid the take down so well.... Nobody has hips like BJ.

Post #15   2/17/07 4:39:04AM   
 
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