the standup and point deduction in the mir/lesnar fight |
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jomatty
In Full Mount
Career record: 67-42
Season: 5-7 (#8043)
Location: c-ville va
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jjfreak,
i dont think there is any way that he hit mir 4 times in the back of the head. i counted 2...
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Post #31 2/3/08 7:15:37PM
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Diamondback2
MMA Regular
Career record: 165-82
Season: 45-25 (#1896)
Location: Michigan
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At first i got to admit i thought the fight was over. But on the replay i understood why it happened the way it did. First of all, it was right at the top of the spine, most of the time when you hear a ref say "Watch the back of the head!" it is a punch that landed somewhere on the skull, or very near it. A punch that just barely hits the back of the head like that it is not anywhere as damaging as landing a punch on the top of the spine. Hitting there is more likely to produce a total KO and possible major brain damage. Hitting on the skull is more than likely to produce a flash KO but less likely to damage someone forever.
And the point deduction was a little extreme I admit, but this is not a sport for amaturs. You make basic mistakes like that, you get penalized. Remember never to second guess a ref too much, they can see the match better than anyone, he can hear and feel each punch. And size and strwength should matter. When is the last time you've seen a GNP punch graze the back of the skull end a fight. That punch Brock landed almost took Mir out.
Was a cool fight, and on my site I managed to call that fight almost perfect. I was calling for the armbar finish, but i predicted the takedowns, and the inexperience showing (punch to back of head, leaving foot there too long). Brock should be pretty good in a couple years though. I am excited to watch him grow.
Thanks!
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Post #32 2/3/08 9:12:50PM
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jomatty
In Full Mount
Career record: 67-42
Season: 5-7 (#8043)
Location: c-ville va
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you cannot make a rule where someone who the ref deems to be "not strong" can do one thing but someone the ref thinks is strong can do another. in that fight if mir got on top would it be ok for him to hit to the back of the head even though brock couldnt? of course not.
the rules simply must be fairly enforced to all participants. referee discretion is always going to play a part in some decision but a ref deciding things like a fighters relative strength and how much he can hit to the back of the head is way way way too subjective.
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Post #33 2/3/08 9:27:12PM
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Gladiator
In Full Mount
Career record: 209-132
Season: 46-24 (#691)
Location: Joplin, MO
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Posted by jomatty
you cannot make a rule where someone who the ref deems to be "not strong" can do one thing but someone the ref thinks is strong can do another.
then the argument shouldnt be against the decision in this fight, it should be against all the other fights where the ref didnt reposition after a back-of-the-head blow. The ref's primary concern is the safety of the fighter and someone as strong as brock has a really good chance of injuring someone by hitting them in the spine or back of the head.
u also missed my point in my earlier post, i wasnt comparing the frank/renzo fight to the lesnar/mir fight. i was using it as an example of how messed up someone can get from a blow to the back of the head.
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Post #34 2/3/08 10:26:27PM
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GREENMAN!!!!
Career record: 134-73
Season: 50-20 (#178)
Location: selden, new york
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Posted by jomatty
jjfreak,
i dont think there is any way that he hit mir 4 times in the back of the head. i counted 2...
this is what i saw, he hit mir in the back of the head once on accident, nothing major, then mir rolled and ate two more rabbit punches, again not lesnar's fault and then it looked like another one hit the back of his head as well and thats when mazagatti stopped it. this is just my perspective but after re-watching it several times i count 4 rabbit blows. they were definitely not intentional but each could have resulted in a NC.
Last edited 2/3/08 11:46PM by jiujitsufreak74
Edit note/reason: n/a
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THE MOST EPIC RAP EVER SPAWNED
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Post #35 2/3/08 11:45:19PM
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The best kicker in the world
Career record: 170-89
Season: 37-18 (#2479)
Location: Regina SK
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I don't care does it really matter the fight ended in 1:30. The stand up was warrented, point was a little quick but theres no way you can argue it should have stayed there.
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"Fall down 7 times, get up 8" - Japanese proverb.
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Post #36 2/4/08 12:39:52AM
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EliasG
MMA Regular
Career record: 83-54
Season: 18-12 (#6337)
Location: Colton
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I think that some people are confused on what constitutes "hitting on the back of the head." Some of you seem to think that it is directly BEHIND the head, near the neck. While that is true, it is also illegal to hit behind the ear, on the neck, or toward the base of the skull(back of the skull). The reason for this is that it can cause paralysis, siezures, loss of vision, and death. It was outlawed in boxing a long long time ago precisely because it DOES these things. I thought it was a bit quick too but the FACT is, he hit him repeatedly behind the ear and then on solid full blow at the base of his skull which is where the most obvious foul occured that everyone "noticed."
I didn't hear Steve warning him but then I wasn't in the ring. If he said he did, he did. There is no question he was rabbit punching though. Dude was reckless.
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Post #37 2/4/08 12:54:08AM
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FORREST > RASHARD
Career record: 156-97
Season: 44-26 (#868)
Location: South Australia
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I said fair enough for the stand up, That was Brock's first fight and he has to learn the rule's so that was fine by me, The point deduction was too much I think, GSP pounded Hughes in head heap's, Even got 3 warning's I think, No stand up or point taken.
Brock lost the fight, But he was so impressive, He would of won if he didn't smell blood and rushed thing's. I was screaming "back off back off" but oh well, Nothing to be ashamed of.
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I always tell the truth. Even when I lie.
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Post #38 2/4/08 1:02:08AM
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Snowstud0101
Learning to Sprawl
Career record: 46-27
Season: 7-3 (#7445)
Location: Minnesota
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Like I said in a past forum about this is I think Mazzagotti had money on Frank Mir! The fight was pretty much over and even after the point deduction he should have put them back in the same position. Come on one blow to the back of the head thats bs
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Post #39 2/4/08 8:53:54AM
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MartinKillMcGill
MMA Regular
Career record: 151-96
Season: 41-28 (#1271)
Location: Derry Ireland
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The fights over brock lost fair and square even he admited it himself. But imo the real question now is who else in the HW division is capable of with standing that sort of punishment and pulling of the sup and although we still have not seen that much of brock thats seems like the only way of beating him. I would obviosley like to see more of his cardio and chin but imo if you are putting him in with the likes of big tim and Kongo and he is winning the fight. other than the likes of Mir Nog weirdrum and mayb AA i dont see many HW with the right guard to beat him.
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Post #40 2/4/08 9:47:32AM
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atlas777
Standup Guy
Career record: 106-80
Season: 30-34 (#4273)
Location: New York
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My problem with the whole thing is lesnar punched mir in the back of the head once, yes it is a violoation to the rule but it wasnt intentional but my problem with it is that the ref took a point away and stood them back up when earlier on the card on a diffrerent fight i cant quite remember who it was but ref steve mazagoti was reffing as well he let a guy on top punch a guy in the back of the head and all he did was tap him on the head and say no punching to the back of the head and two seconds later the guy did the same thing and all he did was tell the guy that he cant punch to the back of the head and the guy did it like 10 times vs lesnars 1 my problem with it is that you cant penalize one guy without punishing another the same way, plus standing them up was wrong and very well could have cost lensar the fight with all that said ref steve mazagotti should be a basketball ref instead of an MMA ref
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Post #41 2/4/08 9:53:19AM
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The People's Mod
Career record: 152-91
Season: 47-23 (#137)
Location: Getting choked out or arm barred
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Honestly I'm about done with this convo, but it's quite apparent Mir had everything under control. Lesnar got mir back in the EXACT same position not 20 seconds later, moved it to north/south, then moved to side control again. The whole time recklessly raining down blows. They didn't KO mir the first time, and they didn't KO him the second time. Mir worked his guard, kept his head moving, and grabbed the sub. Fight over. Not to mention the fact that they stood the fight up, and Lesnar landed a big right on Mir's nose- dropping him! So it sounds like everything worked out for Lesnar to me.
Lesnar didn't complain about Mazzagatti in the ring after the fight was over, and he didn't complain about Mazzagatti during the press conference. He took his loss like a man (which I respect him for) and is learning to move on. Don't taint the matchup by complaining about this and that on the forums. He didn't make any excuses, so why should you? I think it's disrespecting your fighter should you have picked him.
Last UFC I thought Herb Dean stopped a couple of the fights early, but I didn't say my fighter would have won, I just said I thought he deprived the fans of a good show. I know what it's like to be frustrated with a ref's call, but I quickly realized- hey, that's part of the game. There's some real value in calling into question certain strikes to the back of the head not being called out earlier. But really, honestly, take a look at the fight and tell me Brock Lesnar doesn't look like this insanely jacked, way out of control brawler in the ring just swinging away. To me his fighting style was dangerously close to that of a street brawler, and the UFC is far removed from those days. You know Mazzagatti had to have been thinking to himself watching it "This guy is just swinging with reckless abandon" and then when he saw a couple clip Mir on the back of the head he had no choice but to jump in and settle that nonsense down.
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"It is a shame that in this society we've been taught to judge a man's worth by what he owns instead of who he is." - Evan Tanner
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Post #42 2/4/08 1:14:00PM
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GREENMAN!!!!
Career record: 134-73
Season: 50-20 (#178)
Location: selden, new york
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Posted by Jackelope
Honestly I'm about done with this convo, but it's quite apparent Mir had everything under control. Lesnar got mir back in the EXACT same position not 20 seconds later, moved it to north/south, then moved to side control again. The whole time recklessly raining down blows. They didn't KO mir the first time, and they didn't KO him the second time. Mir worked his guard, kept his head moving, and grabbed the sub. Fight over. Not to mention the fact that they stood the fight up, and Lesnar landed a big right on Mir's nose- dropping him! So it sounds like everything worked out for Lesnar to me.
Lesnar didn't complain about Mazzagatti in the ring after the fight was over, and he didn't complain about Mazzagatti during the press conference. He took his loss like a man (which I respect him for) and is learning to move on. Don't taint the matchup by complaining about this and that on the forums. He didn't make any excuses, so why should you? I think it's disrespecting your fighter should you have picked him.
Last UFC I thought Herb Dean stopped a couple of the fights early, but I didn't say my fighter would have won, I just said I thought he deprived the fans of a good show. I know what it's like to be frustrated with a ref's call, but I quickly realized- hey, that's part of the game. There's some real value in calling into question certain strikes to the back of the head not being called out earlier. But really, honestly, take a look at the fight and tell me Brock Lesnar doesn't look like this insanely jacked, way out of control brawler in the ring just swinging away. To me his fighting style was dangerously close to that of a street brawler, and the UFC is far removed from those days. You know Mazzagatti had to have been thinking to himself watching it "This guy is just swinging with reckless abandon" and then when he saw a couple clip Mir on the back of the head he had no choice but to jump in and settle that nonsense down.
extremely well said and i agree 100%
don't classify this victory as BS because doing so is just a scornful, bitter reaction to picking brock lesnar and losing.
Last edited 2/4/08 2:04PM by jiujitsufreak74
Edit note/reason: n/a
_______________________________________
THE MOST EPIC RAP EVER SPAWNED
DOWNLAOD THE RAP HERE
*~*~*~Wayne Allyn Root for Vice President*~*~*~
if you want to know my accolades, just look at the six badges because they were literally too long to list. (damn 500 character limit)
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Post #43 2/4/08 2:03:57PM
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MondayNiteMauser
MMA Regular
Career record: 160-91
Season: 47-23 (#266)
Location:
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It was complete bullshit and i think it stole the fight from brock....it was without warning and brock was in a dominating position and the fight would've ended in 5 more sec. if it would've continued....Bullshit!!
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Post #44 2/4/08 8:06:11PM
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jomatty
In Full Mount
Career record: 67-42
Season: 5-7 (#8043)
Location: c-ville va
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first of all my reason for starting this thread was more of a theoretical one because this fight was a good example of a rule being enforced unfairly imo.
whoever pointed out that the problem is with all the other fights where nothing is done may very well be correct.
to assume that i was upset by the stand up is incorrect. i wanted mir to win and dont know if the stand up made any difference or not. i do think that if they are going to stand em up in that situation and take a point then they need to enforce it a lot more fairly from now on.
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Post #45 2/4/08 8:12:15PM
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