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OB_Juan

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Posted by Betro

How can BJ Penn and freakin' Sean Sherk be ranked higher than Vitor Shaolin? I don't think rankings are about who you think would win in a fight but rather what they have done in their recent history in the weight class they are being ranked. If anyone thinks Shaolin would lose to either guy it's their oppinion, but neither have done much to be ranked higher than him especially Sherk who has one freaking fight at that weight against Florian who's only win at LW was against Stout. GZ, Ishida, Franca, Stevenson, Boku, Aurelio have deserve to be there over Sherk.



Agreed. I'd take any of those guys being ranked over Sherk. In fact, in my rankings Ishida, Franca and JZ all WERE.

Sherk has the [b][i]potential[/i][/b] to be a top dog in the div in the near future given the right match ups and activity level. But beating Kenny Flrian does not a top 10 fighter make.

Post #16   2/16/07 8:48:47PM   

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http://www.mmaplayground.com/forums/topic1513-1.html


Posted by AchillesHeel

I was browsing the Top 10 Rankings that are being assembled here, and I noticed something odd: B.J. is ranked #8 on the P4P list, #4 on the Welterweight list, and #6 on the Lightweight list.

Penn is rated ahead of Matt Hughes on the "P4P" list (Hughes is 10th), but is behind Hughes on the Welterweight list. On the Lightweights list, Penn is ranked behind Aoki, Sherk, Sakurai, and Melendez, none of whom appear on the "P4P" list at all. None of that math makes any sense, and yet it's hard to say that people are completely up a tree.

From reading comments around the web, Penn seems to draw a lot of ire for having lost his last two fights. That those fights were against two of the best fighters in the sport - guys generally regarded as #1 & #2 in the division - and that Penn very nearly won both of those fights aren't relevant factors for everyone. For some people, a loss is a loss, and if you're 0-2 you can't be considered "good", sorry kid, better luck next time.

There's also the weight class dilemma. Personally, I rate B.J. as the #2 Lightweight in the world right now, (almost) sight unseen. Some of you will understandably call me a whack-job for rating him so highly in a division he hasn't touched in a long time. Personally, I think he'd take guys like Kawajiri and Melendez to school. Of course, I also rate B.J. as the 3rd-best Welterweight. Want to break Diego's winning streak? Give him to B.J.

I'm probably making some people insane right about now, aren't I?

Added confusion comes from the new and casual UFC fans I talked about in the other thread. B.J.'s absence from the UFC corresponded neatly with the explosion in popularity brought on by The Ultimate Fighter. By the time of B.J.'s return to the Octagon, half the audience had never heard of him before.

It wasn't long ago that people talked about Penn as the best fighter in the world, pound-for-pound. Of course, things have moved very fast in this sport. And I think they'll continue to move fast. I expect Penn to be the UFC Lightweight champion sometime next Autumn, after he wraps up Pulver.

Oh, and Penn has already punked Gomi once; I think he could do it again. Now who wouldn't want to see that fight?




Bwahahahahahaha!!!!!


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Post #17   2/16/07 8:59:31PM   

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Well there you have it. Case closed.

Post #18   2/16/07 9:07:29PM   

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I placed Rua over Liddell, I thought others would have thought so too. He has amazing skills and he is nowhere near his prime yet, whereas Liddell is at/past his prime already.

I could see Rua getting a win over Liddell.

Post #19   2/16/07 9:08:22PM   

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Rankings are always subjective, because they are people's personal opinions. I really don't care where anyone else ranks them. I have mine, and until I get to see every guy fight every guy in every weight class it's all realtive. Fun thing to have though. One of my favorite features of the sight.

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Post #20   2/16/07 9:10:31PM   

OB_Juan

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Posted by MMA

I placed Rua over Liddell, I thought others would have thought so too. He has amazing skills and he is nowhere near his prime yet, whereas Liddell is at/past his prime already.

I could see Rua getting a win over Liddell.



I definitely had Shogun at #1 a year ago. Chuck has accomplished a helluva lot more lately though. The way I see it is that KOing Tito, Babalu and Randy is better than finishing Diabate, Randleman, and decisioning Nakamura. To be honest, as long as they are the top 2, I could care less.

Chuck vs Shogun is definitely a current dream fight of mine and would certainly help clear things up a bit. My fingers are crossed.

Post #21   2/16/07 9:19:52PM   

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"Posted by AchillesHeel

I was browsing the Top 10 Rankings that are being assembled here, and I noticed something odd: B.J. is ranked #8 on the P4P list, #4 on the Welterweight list, and #6 on the Lightweight list.

Penn is rated ahead of Matt Hughes on the "P4P" list (Hughes is 10th), but is behind Hughes on the Welterweight list. On the Lightweights list, Penn is ranked behind Aoki, Sherk, Sakurai, and Melendez, none of whom appear on the "P4P" list at all. None of that math makes any sense, and yet it's hard to say that people are completely up a tree.

From reading comments around the web, Penn seems to draw a lot of ire for having lost his last two fights. That those fights were against two of the best fighters in the sport - guys generally regarded as #1 & #2 in the division - and that Penn very nearly won both of those fights aren't relevant factors for everyone. For some people, a loss is a loss, and if you're 0-2 you can't be considered "good", sorry kid, better luck next time.

There's also the weight class dilemma. Personally, I rate B.J. as the #2 Lightweight in the world right now, (almost) sight unseen. Some of you will understandably call me a whack-job for rating him so highly in a division he hasn't touched in a long time. Personally, I think he'd take guys like Kawajiri and Melendez to school. Of course, I also rate B.J. as the 3rd-best Welterweight. Want to break Diego's winning streak? Give him to B.J.

I'm probably making some people insane right about now, aren't I?

Added confusion comes from the new and casual UFC fans I talked about in the other thread. B.J.'s absence from the UFC corresponded neatly with the explosion in popularity brought on by The Ultimate Fighter. By the time of B.J.'s return to the Octagon, half the audience had never heard of him before.

It wasn't long ago that people talked about Penn as the best fighter in the world, pound-for-pound. Of course, things have moved very fast in this sport. And I think they'll continue to move fast. I expect Penn to be the UFC Lightweight champion sometime next Autumn, after he wraps up Pulver.

Oh, and Penn has already punked Gomi once; I think he could do it again. Now who wouldn't want to see that fight? "

So you rank him because you think he can beat those guys? Well I thnk Arona can beat Liddell and Marquardt can be A Silva so should I rank Marquardt over Silva even though he hasn't beaten the talent that silva has, or should I rank Arona over Liddell even though Arona doesnt have a good a record as Liddell? I don't think rankings should just be who has the better win/loss record, you have to account for things like there opponents records and such.

Post #22   2/16/07 9:21:25PM   

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Posted by MMA

I placed Rua over Liddell, I thought others would have thought so too. He has amazing skills and he is nowhere near his prime yet, whereas Liddell is at/past his prime already.

I could see Rua getting a win over Liddell.



A year ago I would have agreed with you in full. In that time Liddell has fought the best available and dominated them with authority while Shogun has gotten an arm broken loss to Coleman (not that it matter when looking at LHW rank, but it is important when looking at the fighter and what to see in his future given that he still isn't at the same level at all that he was prior) and rather lackluster wins over 2 fighters, only one of which is in the top ten and he's hanging at the bottom. Besides, it's not mainly about who could beat whom, it's about what they've shown in their past fights and where they've proven they belong in the division. - i.e. Just because I think Aurelio could take Gomi in another rematch doesn't make him #1 at all.

Last edited 2/16/07 9:26PM server time by dragomort
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Post #23   2/16/07 9:24:05PM   

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Posted by hippysmacker

Rankings are always subjective, because they are people's personal opinions. I really don't care where anyone else ranks them. I have mine, and until I get to see every guy fight every guy in every weight class it's all realtive. Fun thing to have though. One of my favorite features of the sight.



That's true, but you can't help but get a little confused if not upset at people who don't put any thought or reasoning into their rankings. I don't care if we have differences in opinions, but I'd certainly like to see anyone justify things like Florian at #1, etc.

Post #24   2/16/07 9:29:51PM   

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Posted by Betro

So you rank him because you think he can beat those guys? Well I thnk Arona can beat Liddell and Marquardt can be A Silva so should I rank Marquardt over Silva even though he hasn't beaten the talent that silva has, or should I rank Arona over Liddell even though Arona doesnt have a good a record as Liddell? I don't think rankings should just be who has the better win/loss record, you have to account for things like there opponents records and such.



I fully agree. I mean, if Roidleman can KO CroCop then it wouldn't be that far off to think Sylvia could KO Fedor. Should I rank Timmy at #1?

And yes, a fighter's record on paper certainly does not tell the whole story. Look at Randy and Vitor's last 2 fights. Vitor's fluke cut causing grazing punch isn't nearly as decisive as the beating Randy handed him in return. For example.

Post #25   2/16/07 9:33:49PM   

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If you look at Liddell's past fights, they have all been mainly grapplers (e.g. Couture, Horn, Sobral, Ortiz). Although his performances were dominant, I would like to see how well Liddell fairs against a talented striker (such as Rua).

Recall back in the days when Liddell got beat by Jackson. If you watch his other 2 PRIDE fights, he was losing to both Mezger and Overeem in the stand-up until he hit them with his looping punch.

I know the past is the past, and Liddell has definitely gotten better, but the fact is, he has been untested in his stand-up for quite sometime now. The Jackson rematch should be a very interesting fight because Jackson has an awesome chin and is a good striker (although not at the caliber of Rua or Silva).

Post #26   2/16/07 9:55:34PM   

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Posted by MMA

If you look at Liddell's past fights, they have all been mainly grapplers (e.g. Couture, Horn, Sobral, Ortiz). Although his performances were dominant, I would like to see how well Liddell fairs against a talented striker (such as Rua).

Recall back in the days when Liddell got beat by Jackson. If you watch his other 2 PRIDE fights, he was losing to both Mezger and Overeem in the stand-up until he hit them with his looping punch.

I know the past is the past, and Liddell has definitely gotten better, but the fact is, he has been untested in his stand-up for quite sometime now. The Jackson rematch should be a very interesting fight because Jackson has an awesome chin and is a good striker (although not at the caliber of Rua or Silva).



There is no denying that Chuck has had some match ups that have benefitted him stylistically (grapplers), That's just a fact. However, the guys he's beat were ranked pretty high at the time. IMO that's what needs to be weighed more than if he only beat one dimensional opponents or whatever.

I hope Chuck does fight another good striker soon and he loses because I don't particularly care for him too much but IMO he deserves the top spot. If Shogun pwns Alistair and then gets another good win and Chuck is inactive that might be enough to sway me but not yet.

Post #27   2/16/07 10:44:49PM   

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Posted by MMA

I placed Rua over Liddell, I thought others would have thought so too. He has amazing skills and he is nowhere near his prime yet, whereas Liddell is at/past his prime already.

I could see Rua getting a win over Liddell.



We can all see it, but until it happens you shouldn't rank it like it has.

What if it happens and Liddell drops him? That could easily happen as well, and all your prognostication has done is base you rankings on what if, not what is.

Post #28   2/17/07 3:36:15PM   

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Posted by DCBooks


Posted by MMA

I placed Rua over Liddell, I thought others would have thought so too. He has amazing skills and he is nowhere near his prime yet, whereas Liddell is at/past his prime already.

I could see Rua getting a win over Liddell.



We can all see it, but until it happens you shouldn't rank it like it has.

What if it happens and Liddell drops him? That could easily happen as well, and all your prognostication has done is base you rankings on what if, not what is.





So are you saying that Liddell is definitely better than Rua? There is always a subjective aspect to rankings (particularly for P4P rankings).

Post #29   2/17/07 3:41:57PM   

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Posted by MMA


Posted by DCBooks


Posted by MMA

I placed Rua over Liddell, I thought others would have thought so too. He has amazing skills and he is nowhere near his prime yet, whereas Liddell is at/past his prime already.

I could see Rua getting a win over Liddell.



We can all see it, but until it happens you shouldn't rank it like it has.

What if it happens and Liddell drops him? That could easily happen as well, and all your prognostication has done is base you rankings on what if, not what is.





So are you saying that Liddell is definitely better than Rua? There is always a subjective aspect to rankings (particularly for P4P rankings).



I'm not speaking for DCBooks, but IMO you can't base rankings on what you THINK would happen because as soon as you do you get stuff like Randleman KOing Cro Cop or Edwards armbarring Mishima. There's too many variables.

Until they were actually to fight noone can say for sure who is better. It's just not possible, that's why their recent accomplishments need to be the main factor in ranking.

One thing I will say that Shogun has in his favor is a win over Rampage. Now it becomes a matter of how much you weigh fights from 2 or 3 yrs ago compared to in the last 12 - 18 months or so.

Post #30   2/17/07 4:12:12PM   
 
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