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AchillesHeel

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I've seen lots of people complain about UFC fans and crowds (not just on this forum, all over the place), because they don't understand the sport very well yet. Booing at UFC events is rampant, and I agree that it's annoying as Hell.

However, I think it's over-simplistic to say that UFC fans simply don't like or appreciate ground-fighting. I find that new and casual UFC fans really like takedowns, the bigger the better, and really dig Ye Olde Ground n' Pound. They even like submissions when they appear close to, or result in, a tapout. Choke-holds always seem to get a rise from the crowd; rear naked chokes are a big fan favorite, and I think people are learning to appreciate a good triangle.

The tactical battle that can happen on the ground sometimes goes over people's heads because they don't see the dangerous potential of this or that. I sometimes have to explain to people not only what a "Kimura" is, but why it sucks to get caught in one (this usually involves demonstrating it on them ). And I think we can all admit that the struggle for balance and leverage in jiu-jitsu and wrestling can be nearly invisible sometimes. Those of us who have experienced those sports may have an advantage (I think this is true for all sports actually - I watch the sports today that I played as a kid).

My fear regarding the UFC and its fans is that the referees, judges, and fight promoters will pay too much attention to the new and casual fan, rather than letting them educate themselves by watching the fights. I don't mind a new fan wondering what the frack Jason MacDonald is doing while Chris Leben punches him in the head, but it worries me when this carries over to the people making the decisions. The decision to not air the Lister-Marquardt fight was a bad omen on a number of levels.

Last edited 2/16/07 5:15PM server time by AchillesHeel
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Post #1   2/16/07 5:07:28PM   

hippysmacker

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I wouldn't say it's just UFC fans either. Most new fans to MMA don't have the technical knowledge to appreciate some of the finer point's of grappling. Just give them time. I understand your fears. I share them, and I don't think they are groundless. However, it's better to help educate new fans than to flame them. I'm not in anyway specifically targeting you or anyone with this observation.It's just something I've observed throughout the longtime , diehard, MMA community. As Aceprone posted a while back, Japanese fan's come from a culture rich in warrior tradition's, where their heroes are samurais. In America, western gunslinger's are as much heroes too us as anyone in our history . It will help our sport in the long run to just be patient and help educate IMO.

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Post #2   2/16/07 5:18:20PM   

Jeffanori-Gomi

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I never really understood why K1 hasnt become huge in the US as it is elsewhere.

People love standup battles and K1 is good for that, but Im guessing the USA's boxing market would outshadow the K1 market.?? Your thoughts?

I think if the UFC implemented a rule system similar to PRIDE. ie card system, knee strikes to the head, the new fanbase would appreciate the ground game more because there would be a reduction of weak takedowns due to being able to defend by kneeing to the face. We would then see more standup orientated matches IMO

your thoughts

Post #3   2/16/07 5:24:00PM   

hippysmacker

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Posted by Jeffanori-Gomi

I never really understood why K1 hasnt become huge in the US as it is elsewhere.

People love standup battles and K1 is good for that, but Im guessing the USA's boxing market would outshadow the K1 market.?? Your thoughts?

I think if the UFC implemented a rule system similar to PRIDE. ie card system, knee strikes to the head, the new fanbase would appreciate the ground game more because there would be a reduction of weak takedowns due to being able to defend by kneeing to the face. We would then see more standup orientated matches IMO

your thoughts





completely. I hope to never see footstomps/soccer kicks , but kness onthe ground make afight more exciting and punish the LnP to me.

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Post #4   2/16/07 5:26:15PM   

AchillesHeel

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Posted by hippysmacker

[...]it's better to help educate new fans than to flame them. [...]It will help our sport in the long run to just be patient and help educate IMO.


Precisely.


Posted by Jeffanori-Gomi

I never really understood why K1 hasnt become huge in the US as it is elsewhere.


Marketing and accessibility. K-1 simply isn't on the radar here.


I think if the UFC implemented a rule system similar to PRIDE. ie card system, knee strikes to the head, the new fanbase would appreciate the ground game more because there would be a reduction of weak takedowns due to being able to defend by kneeing to the face. We would then see more standup orientated matches IMO

Some people think that allowing knees to the head of a downed opponent would discourage some stalling. Whether it's true or not might be moot; I don't foresee the sanctioning bodies changing their minds on that one.

Last edited 2/16/07 5:30PM server time by AchillesHeel
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Post #5   2/16/07 5:30:47PM   

Svartorm

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Unfortunetly, you're probably right, although if UFC gets even bigger, they might have a little bit of say with the athletic commisions about that sort of thing. Realistically a knee to the head on the ground isn't that much more dangerous than an elbow.

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Post #6   2/16/07 5:46:21PM   

redmist

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Let's be honest here, the people who get drunk and boo don't want to be educated. They want to see "ultimate fighters" knocking hell out of each other. they don't visit sites like this for intelligent debate about the sport or search for videos of gogoplatas and anaconda chokes. They just want to turn up, drink, and chant "usa" if the opposition is foreign.

unfortunately this has effected things in the ufc. we don't get to see some fighters, even though they are close to recieving title shots (marquardt). and even fighters we've looked forward to seeing in the ufc for a while (machida). We also have fighters apologizing to the booing masses for daring to play to their strengths and keep the fight on the ground. I think going to the ground will eventually be rendered pointless because bjj guys won't have time to work for a position before they're stood up. But that's the price we might pay for the growing popularity.

hope i'm wrong and sorry to be so cynical.

Post #7   2/16/07 6:58:40PM   

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Posted by redmist

Let's be honest here, the people who get drunk and boo don't want to be educated. They want to see "ultimate fighters" knocking hell out of each other. they don't visit sites like this for intelligent debate about the sport or search for videos of gogoplatas and anaconda chokes. They just want to turn up, drink, and chant "usa" if the opposition is foreign.

unfortunately this has effected things in the ufc. we don't get to see some fighters, even though they are close to recieving title shots (marquardt). and even fighters we've looked forward to seeing in the ufc for a while (machida). We also have fighters apologizing to the booing masses for daring to play to their strengths and keep the fight on the ground. I think going to the ground will eventually be rendered pointless because bjj guys won't have time to work for a position before they're stood up. But that's the price we might pay for the growing popularity.

hope i'm wrong and sorry to be so cynical.



I hope your wrong too. Your point is valid, but seriously how many diehads can afford to go to the UFC. It's become the new " in thing" for celebrities and people with excess money to blow.Also, since the majority have been in Vegas, unless you live close it's a big inconvenience and expense. I would much rather watch it in myhouse with 15-20 people who I knoe are into it anyway . Drunken people always ruin anything IMO. Baseball, football, MMA etc. They are always just rowdy and overbearing. I still think eventually more and more peole will become educated and this will diminish appreciatively.

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Post #8   2/16/07 7:22:52PM   

Reignofterror

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It's honestly pathetic and in my opinion disgusting how casual fans view the sport. Many of them merely hope for the authlete to get hurt, and many pay for blood. Violence is the X-Factor for many new comers to the sport, and that may have been what drove them away from boxing if they were a fan, was the fact that now we can punch,knee,elbow, and kick...but little do they care about the ground game unless someone gets pummeled.

Once it hits the canvas little respect is given for some of the grappling clinics that are put on by fighters (Griffin vs Edgar for example). Wrestling and Juijitsu is an art which deserves much more appreciation then it is given, and for fans that want to see a stand up brawl then why not watch K-1 Kickboxing, mixed martial arts isn't exactly you're cup of tea. Unfortunetly, to the grapplers dismay it seems that referees are as well not giving the time needed on the ground which often results in immediate stand-up unless fighters are immediately engaged. For those that have practiced Juijitsu realise that it takes time for submisssion holds to be locked in place and positioning is everything, as well as mental concentration. The ground holds as much of a physical battle as mental and it does take brains to attain victory on the ground which many people new to mixed martial arts fail to understand.

Mixed Martial Arts is a sport not a human cock-fight and for those that fail to realise that these athletes are professionally trained fighters, who train, diet, and work just as hard if not harder then football, basketball, and baseball players. Don't boo the ground game, and don't boo a stand up fight that doesn't look like Bonnar vs Griffin 1, MMA is an aggressive sport, yet still very tactical, and it seems the tactical part always goes unappreciated.

Post #9   2/16/07 8:24:16PM   

MrGreeny

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I think, the drunken audience at the UFC events knows too few about MMA... This mfkrs (sorry that i call them like that but they deserve it after forcing a legend in MMA like Rampage apologise after a good fight) should watch more Pros vs. Joes ;) like the video where Frank Shamrock chokes some DJ and in like 5 seconds the DJ is sleeping... The crowd doesn't apreciate the strenght of the fighters...

Post #10   2/16/07 8:32:17PM   

dstlvb

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There are many valid points that have been brought up in this discussion. The booing in the ground game is a little hit and miss. If i remember correctly the Griffen/Edgar fight wasnt booed very much. That was a match with incredible action on the ground and lots of transistions. I love the ground game as much as the rest, but a lot of these fighters do not push the action on the ground. Even from the top position. A good example would be Herman/ Grove, lots of action. Now the grappling wasnt world class but they pushed the action. A happy medium can be found

I belive this is due to the makeup of most of the UFC fighters. In my personal opinion the TUF type fighters are being mishandled. The key to these fighters is getting them in and training full time to fight. A comparison might be the NBA. Wjile the players have gotten younger, people complain about the lack of fundementals. If you look at a fighter like Nog or even Fedor(non bjj guy) he pushes the action no matter where he is at. Most of the young fighters havnt learned that yet.

One more thing to consider is the rapid growth of the sport has taken many by surprise. I belive Dana and MMA in general are all trying to catch up. I think we need to give the UFC and Dana a little more time to see where they are going to take MMA. The NFL has succesfully blended the old and the new, the hardcore and the casual.

Post #11   2/16/07 8:54:03PM   

ac_gi

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Posted by CtOlaf

...like the video where Frank Shamrock chokes some DJ and in like 5 seconds the DJ is sleeping...



Do you mean Joe Rogan?

Post #12   2/17/07 12:12:45AM   

ac_gi

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Fans are fans. I enjoy watching fights were there are fans of all aspects of MMA. To me an educated MMA fan base makes the fights that much more exciting. It's almost like having a good announcer.

There is not much the UFC can do to prevent grappling. They have a large, almost circular cage that benefits the striker. The rules are in place, it is up to the mixed martial artist to implement their game plan, and not worry about the boo'ing.

Post #13   2/17/07 12:25:28AM   

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The reason strikers are more successful is because they are generally the more talented. I've trained in Kickboxing and Jiu-jitsu... you can teach someone to apply an armbar like (insert ground specialist here), you can't teach someone to throw a powerful punch with precision and accuracy like Chuck. There is a reason that strikers and GnP guys are ruling MMA.

The striker learns submission and takedown defense, then lets the bombs fly.

Let the flaming begin

Post #14   2/17/07 12:28:53AM   

hippysmacker

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Posted by ac_gi

The reason strikers are more successful is because they are generally the more talented. I've trained in Kickboxing and Jiu-jitsu... you can teach someone to apply an armbar like (insert ground specialist here), you can't teach someone to throw a powerful punch with precision and accuracy like Chuck. There is a reason that strikers and GnP guys are ruling MMA.

The striker learns submission and takedown defense, then lets the bombs fly.

Let the flaming begin



No reason to flame anyone,I just disagree. I beleive you can teach someone how to throw a powerful punch. It's all in the rotation of your hips, feet, and getting your whole body in on the punch. Chuck himself has said despite his previous martial arts training Hackleman taught him how to get a lot more power in his punches

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“Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie ,cheat ,or steal.for selfish gain. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found.”
The Iron Code

Post #15   2/17/07 12:34:13AM   
 
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