| |
GREAT BJ PENN THREAD
GREAT BJ PENN THREAD |
| Posted By |
Message |
nelson888
Learning to Sprawl
Career record: 79-19
Season: 17-6 (#5490)
Location: Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada
|
not by me, but warheart on sherdog, its not new, some of you may have seen it already but for some of the newer members on here i think its a really good thread that shows how not over rated bj penn is and that he is truly an amazing fighter.
"I see a lot of newer fans (I'm not going to say TUF fans) who say that BJ is over-rated. I can even understand a little, because if i'd only been a fan for 2-3 years I may think the same thing.
So I am going to try not being condescending, and am actually going to try explaining to you why he is so highly regarded. I became a die-hard MMA fan about a year before his debut so I think I am in a good position for this.
Firstly, his BJJ game and credentials are as good as anybody in the game. This is why he is called the prodigy, the first US fighter to win the gold in Brazil.
So following his short and sensational career as a BJJ fighter he turned to MMA, and fans were already talking about him - before he had even fought. He was so highly regarded that his debut was in the UFC!
His opponent was Joey Gilbert, a gimme. BJ as expected dominated Gilbert.
Around this time Jens Pulver had just won the LW title, and the UFC was trying to get a superfight for him. So they brought in Din Thomas.
Din Thomas had fought all over the world, he was a known top class fighter and had stopped Jens Pulver previously. Not only that but he gave Caol Uno a hell of a fight in his only loss.
Din's UFC debut was against Penn. The vast majority of people thought that this was a gimme for Din before his big rematch with Jens, and in truth that was probably Zuffa's plans.
BJ Penn at only 22, and in only his second MMA fight KO'd Thomas in a couple of minutes. Trust my guys this was sensational at the time - Think Gonzaga-Cro Cop (only to a lesser extent because Thomas didn't have so many nut-huggers)
The next fight for BJ was probably to punish him for ruining the UFC's plans
It is hard to remember/believe, but at the time Uno was recognised as a top 3 fighter, and a guy who on his day could beat anybody in the world.
BJ Penn's destruction of Uno was probably the biggest 'coming-out party' in MMA history. He KO'd him in 11 seconds!
As an example could you imagine a 22 year old guy with only 2 fights destroying Gomi in 11 seconds?
That is what it was like.
I liken it to Sokoudjo this year, or Shogun in 2005. A metoric rise to fame like no other.
Uno had beaten Iha, Thomas, Sato twice and he had been overwhelmed in seconds by an in-experienced kid who was supposedly a grappler.
I remember the net at this time, and BJ Penn was probably the most talked about guy in the sport.
His next fight was with Pulver, a close decision loss. However he proved he was more than a match for the champion by having a picture-perfect armbar applied as the round ended.
Even though he lost he proved that he was no flash in the pan.
His next 3 fights were underwhelming, facing Creighton, Serra and Uno in lackluster affairs. The rematch with Uno was so controversial, and I still can not fathom how he didn't win the title in that fight. This gave fans sympathy for Penn.
At this time Penn was pissed, and vowed to prove that he was the number one guy in the world.
So he went out and on his own money put together a fight with unbeaten Takanori Gomi. You know how these days everybody makes threads "Who'd win Sherk or Kid Yamamoto?" etc
This was the same thing. A dream fight for fans between two guys in different organisations.
Unfortunately Gomi lost a decision to Hansen just over a month before the superfight, which made the fight anti-climatic.
It was still highly anticipated though, and Penn dominated Gomi. In a way which Gomi has never been dominated before or since. This is another easy thing to overlook, but directly after the Penn fight, Gomi signed for Pride and dominated for a couple of years. Just a testament to how good BJ truly is.
Following that Penn returned to the UFC and announced that he was going up in weight to fight Hughes.
Matt Hughes at that time was honestly viewed as Fedor is now. He was the top P4P guy in the world and was seen unbeatable.
Fans worldwide thought this was a huge mistake and there were threads on sherdog with titles such as 'RIP BJ' etc
What happened is the equivalent of Chuck Liddell moving to HW and dominating Fedor. It was unfathomable.
Writing this it is really hitting home how easy it is to forget the situations etc, how easy it is to downplay a win a few years later.
BJ lost a lot of fans with his next move - myself included. UFC warned him that as champion he could not fight in other organisations - he ignored them and went to K1.
Bang Ludwig was a rising superstar at the time, he was riding high with wins in his last two fights over Pulver and Sudo. Ludwig-Penn was the fight fans wanted to see, and they got it.
Like man vs boy, Bang was dominated and BJ Penn cemented his status as the P4P king.
In another of those easy to forget things, Rodrido Gracie was viewed as the next great Gracie. He was undefeated and coming off a huge win over Mach Sakurai.
When Penn announced he was moving up to MW to fight him people honest to god thought he was crazy.
He did though, and dominated the next great Gracie.
His next move was to crazy even for him. I remember when it was announced he moving to HW to fight undefeated sensation Machida there were people saying they were going to stop being fans of his because he was too ir-rational.
Fears were confirmed, and Penn lost. However it was a razor-thin decision that could easily have gone his way.
Think about it. Machida has dominated everybody he has fought, including brutal stoppages of Bonnar and Franklin, he is currently considered the biggest prospect in the LHW division. Yet he barely beat a guy fighting at least 50 pounds over his ideal weight. You guys still wanna say that BJ is over-rated?
I will not go into his next 3 fights because I assume that you guys know what happened.
Personally I groan everytime I read that Penn is over-rated. I he an MMA superstar, and one of the elite fighters of all time.
He has beaten 7 fighters who at the time were considered elite, Not only has he beaten them, he has dominated all but one (Serra)
Thomas
Uno
Serra
Ludwig
Gomi
Gracie
Hughes
So please next time you wanna type that Penn is over-rated, remember this post.
There is never an easier time to tell when a fan is uneducated, and when he explains that he doesn't know why Penn is so respected."
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=585130
Last edited 1/5/08 10:41PM by nelson888
Edit note/reason: n/a
2 total post edits
|
|
Post #1 1/5/08 10:32:56PM
|
GREENMAN!!!!
Career record: 134-73
Season: 50-20 (#178)
Location: selden, new york
|
this doesn't change my mind at all. i have been a MMA fan for 6 years and i think BJ is a bit overrated. the key words in that thread were "at the time". he goes on about how BJ dominated the competiton "at the time" which imo has no bearing. it doesn't matter about what he has accomplished, in fact i think that what he has accomplished blinds some fans to what he is capable of today. it doesn't matter what he did, it matters how he will fight right now. do you think that vitor belfort is the best LHW because of what he has accomplished in the past? how about royce gracie, he was dominant too right? now don't get me wrong, BJ is in the top 2-3 LWs in the world, but he is not this invincible fighter that everyone thinks he is. all that thread discussed was past accolades of BJ, and imo that does not have too much bearing in his upcoming fight. BJ isn't the same fighter he was when he dominated, and all though he is great he is not invincible. i just think the joe daddy's style is talor made to beat BJ and this thread didn't change my mind. but hey, i could be 100% wrong and i am completely prepared to eat my words
_______________________________________
THE MOST EPIC RAP EVER SPAWNED
DOWNLAOD THE RAP HERE
*~*~*~Wayne Allyn Root for Vice President*~*~*~
if you want to know my accolades, just look at the six badges because they were literally too long to list. (damn 500 character limit)
|
|
Post #2 1/5/08 10:43:37PM
|
Boo_Radley21
MMA Sensei
Career record: 137-92
Season: 44-25 (#1016)
Location:
|
I know BJ is a great fighter there's no questioning it but I do think that he is a bit overrated. People say he's the best pound for pound fighter and I just think there's at least some hype around him.
|
|
Post #3 1/6/08 12:41:43AM
|
Believe-in-judo81
Standup Guy
| 1 |  |  |
1 |
Career record: 174-101
Season: 43-21 (#1066)
Location: Missouri
|
There is hype around any fighter that Zuffa feels they can market for big bucks, at's how they do business. But in Baby Jay's case, the hype is not only justified, but Completely true. He DOES have the most raw talent of any fighter to ever jump into MMA, he DOES have the best BJJ yet seen on the UFC stage, and if Feodor isn't the P4P all time great up to this point and time in the sport, who but Penn is?
People can say he's over hyped, or washed up or whatever else they want to, but it doesn't make it true. BJ can beat any guy in world at 145- 170 lbs on any given day, and if he doesn't, there's a pretty good chance it was because he chose to not train properly, because he's made all his money and proven how good he is. In my mind, that's the only real knock on the guy, he's not driven to compete like most other great athletes are. Hell, sometimes he seems like he could couldn't possibly care less, yet he's still so damn good.
Other than that lack of Drive/ Motivation, he's the closest thing to a perfect fighter MMA has seen yet.
|
|
Post #4 1/6/08 2:49:35AM
|
jomatty
In Full Mount
Career record: 67-42
Season: 5-7 (#8043)
Location: c-ville va
|
forget all of the "at the time" stuff then and look at him now. who else have you seen prove themselves able to compete with GSP and Hughes at a weight above their natural weight? he may have lost both those fights, but he showed just how great he is in both of them imo. he got hurt against hughes and lost steam against gsp (who is very possibly the number 1 p4p in the world right now although i have him at number 2) but he proved that he is still elite in every way.
|
|
Post #5 1/6/08 4:28:48AM
|
Pitbull09
MMA Sensei
Career record: 134-69
Season: 43-23 (#1565)
Location: PA
|
Posted by jiujitsufreak74
this doesn't change my mind at all. i have been a MMA fan for 6 years and i think BJ is a bit overrated. the key words in that thread were "at the time". he goes on about how BJ dominated the competiton "at the time" which imo has no bearing. it doesn't matter about what he has accomplished, in fact i think that what he has accomplished blinds some fans to what he is capable of today. it doesn't matter what he did, it matters how he will fight right now. do you think that vitor belfort is the best LHW because of what he has accomplished in the past? how about royce gracie, he was dominant too right? now don't get me wrong, BJ is in the top 2-3 LWs in the world, but he is not this invincible fighter that everyone thinks he is. all that thread discussed was past accolades of BJ, and imo that does not have too much bearing in his upcoming fight. BJ isn't the same fighter he was when he dominated, and all though he is great he is not invincible. i just think the joe daddy's style is talor made to beat BJ and this thread didn't change my mind. but hey, i could be 100% wrong and i am completely prepared to eat my words
I agree somewhat with him. We could say CC isnt overrated right now since he had a well accomplished career but isnt doing well right now. Im not saying BJ is over rated. Hes one ofthe best Lightweights to fight but Stevenson doesnt deserve these crazy odds either.
|
|
Post #6 1/6/08 4:44:24AM
|
sillysnail
MMA Regular
Career record: 19-9
Season: 5-3 (#8181)
Location:
|
this thread isn't meant to prove that BJ isn't overrated simply because he's fought and beat many of the worlds best over the years. what its trying to point out is that when you look at BJ from a p4p perspective, he has done what no other fighter has done: fought in nearly every weight class against top notch opponents. he may not have always won, but every fight hes ever lost has been very close. for a guy that started out as a LW to fight at 205 against a guy like machida nonetheless, and put up a damn good fight at that, is just unreal.
BJ has never got come close to getting an ass whopping in any ring or octagon. the only time hes ever been ko'd is when he had a broken rib. if anybody wants to beat the guy, they've gotta survive the entire match and let it go to the judges.
if you want to talk about overrated, talk about gomi. i cringe when i see sherdog rank him as the #1 LW in the world. the guy LOST his last fight in pretty convincing fashion (having your win overturned for a non-performance enhancing drug is absurd).
the whole point of this thread was to point out to people who think hes overrated that hes NOT by merit of his accomplishments. ya, this may involve looking to the past, but how else do you explain to people why he is considered to be so great. this stevenson fight should help to silence the critics. if not, im sure when he takes out sherk and perhaps makes a move for the WW belt, the world will once again see why BJ Penn is one of the best fighters the sport has ever seen.
|
|
Post #7 1/6/08 4:52:55AM
|
I'm a LEAD FARMER MOTHA F*CKER
| 1 |  | |
1 |
Career record: 135-93
Season: 39-31 (#2217)
Location: Denver, Colorado Birthplace of the UFC
|
BJ is great and will be the next LW champ
_______________________________________
Broncos will go 12-4
4-0 av bets
He's been known to cure narcalepsy by just walking into a room. His orgin donation card list his beard. He is a lover not a fighter but he's also a fighter so don't get any idea's
he is SpiderSilva
|
|
Post #8 1/6/08 2:03:14PM
|
nickcuc547
MMA Sensei
Career record: 219-128
Season: 45-25 (#813)
Location:
|
imo bj is the most TALENTED fighter in all of mma. that doesnt make him the best but in terms of raw talent i think he's the best, gsp and fedor are the next best two but bj has second to none jiu jitsu and phenomenal striking, there are no other fighters that can put both together at that level, the only think he doesnt have is great wrestling but he doesnt need it imo.
|
|
Post #9 1/6/08 3:19:54PM
|
Blizzard
MMA Regular
Career record: 142-94
Season: 40-26 (#2004)
Location: Mountain Top
|
BJ is a great fighter and he has proved that in many differant forms and weight classes, but I think he needs to stay at one weight class and one organization and stick with it, to give him the legacy that he deserves.
Last edited 1/6/08 9:19PM by blizzard
Edit note/reason: n/a
|
|
Post #10 1/6/08 9:13:52PM
|
Have it!!!
Career record: 136-71
Season: 43-27 (#735)
Location: Newcastle, UK
|
Posted by Blizzard
BJ is a great fighter and he has proved that in many differant forms and weight classes, but I think he needs to stay at one weight class and one organization and stick with it, to give him the legacy that he deserves.
100% agree. I think his changing between weight classes and orgs have kind of cost him. Obviously, hed of never gotten fights with the likes of gomi, so in that aspect he did the right thing moving around, but imagine if hed stuck with the ufc and fought and trained consistanly since the time of his fights with pulver and tomas ect. Hed probably be the most dominant champ the ufc has ever seen if hed stuck at lw and the ufc had kept the division, but theres also a pretty good chance hed of dominated the ww division aswell. If hed really stuck with the ufc, hughes legacey could of been his, imo.
_______________________________________
"There is not a sports drink formulated by any scientist that will hydrate you more than your own urine. When it comes to fight time, the day of my fight I don't eat a single thing — all I do is drink my own urine until I defecate pure urine. That's how I know that my digestive system is completely empty."
Myspace
|
|
Post #11 1/6/08 10:52:14PM
|
wagere
MMA Regular
| 1 |  | |
1 |
Career record: 182-101
Season: 48-21 (#322)
Location: Hamilton, OH
|
From what I've seen of BJ the only way he gets beat is his cardio, hes dominate for about 8 minutes.
|
|
Post #12 1/7/08 1:36:09PM
|
gsquat
MMA Sensei
Career record: 121-77
Season: 47-23 (#266)
Location: TC, MI
|
I'd like to see a thread about how Joe Stevenson is being underrated. Fought a lot more fights than BJ and is stronger no doubt. I'm still picking BJ, just sayin'... watch out.
|
|
Post #13 1/7/08 2:59:04PM
|
sillysnail
MMA Regular
Career record: 19-9
Season: 5-3 (#8181)
Location:
|
i don't think hes underrated. he's getting a title shot AND many people believe he has a shot at wining. i'm not one of them, but i'm also not going to pretend this is gonna be an easy fight.
|
|
Post #14 1/7/08 4:30:32PM
|
mk1630
Standup Guy
Career record: 164-90
Season: 46-22 (#993)
Location: B-lo,New York
|
From what the majority of people on here are sayin is that Joe Daddy has no chance. I want BJ to win because he is one of my favorite fighters, but i still think Joe has a chance. If Penn comes in focused and motivated like the fight with Pulver, whcih i believe he will, it will be tough for Joe. On the other hand, Joe is goin to come in just as focused if not maybe more, and he will definatley push BJ to fighjt a great fight. Im hopin for a 3rd round armbar by BJ for the LW Title.
|
|
Post #15 1/7/08 8:14:43PM
|
|
|
|
