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Knees to the head on the ground, and popularity.

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redmist

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I'm posting this topic mainly because i believe this to be a seminal time for MMA. Boxing seems to be enjoying a resurgance of sorts, and as much as people like to think the sport's don't compete in the popularity stakes, it's obvious that's not the case.

This weekend i watched, UFC fight night, Hatton v Mayweather, and the K1 GP. After watching all of them It struck me that the hype surrounding an elite boxing match will more than likely never be topped by a mixed martial arts event. It also struck me that the winner of the K1 GP Semmy Schilt, seemed to baske in a glory that a UFC champ can only dream of (like if green Bay just won the superbowl).

Now i know that boxing has very few heroes left to promote, but that also seems to be the case with MMA. This is the sport i love over all others and I believe it's popularity depends not on hype like boxing, or majesty like K1, but on wild fights like you can't get anywhere else. The UFC should provide these fights but on the whole it doesn't and i think this can be attributed to the amount of collegiate wrestlers who see this as an easy ticket to fame and fortune. And as a consequence a large proportion of fights the American public see are dominated by Lay & Pray artists.

My point is this, wrestlers could be the ruin of our sport and they have to be stopped from dominating fights in this fashion. The best way to do this is the sanctioning of knees to the head on the ground. unless we see this change i believe our sport will suffer a sharp decline in popularity.

your thoughts?

Post #1   12/10/07 12:16:13AM   

TimW001

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Well I hate bad mouthing wrestlers, but I do agree with you on several levels.

And I also think they should give out yellowcards in the ufc to stop stalling.

Post #2   12/10/07 12:21:02AM   

cmill21

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I agree, I also think allowing soccer kicks would deter people diving for take downs and the the like since if someone sprawls and has your head down there he can tee off. The AC's will not allow this though. I do think it should be allowed though makes it hard to go in and just take a guy down, because if you don't get it you'll get kneed in the head.

Post #3   12/10/07 12:26:19AM   

JBatch

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I completely agree with you my man. Not only does it stop lay and pray artists but it would also stop a guy like danzig going balls out for the TD on Tommy Speer, leaving himself susceptible to being punted into next week.

I also agree with whoever said that the AC's would never sanction it. Which leaves us the fan and the sport of MMA the losers. I for one see no reason why elbows are allowed and knee's on the ground are illegal. A knee on the ground is punishing but so were JRocks elbows form the guard last night. The sport is a violent one and denying certain techniques only hinders what we all want: The Finish.

Post #4   12/10/07 1:00:53AM   

jomatty

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i agree with the need for knees to downed opponents but i do not think the nsac will ever allow them. soccer kicks and stomps are more dangerous in my opinion, and while i like them as well, think they are a much more controversial subject. if you watch pride fights you will see very few times when a fighter was knocked out or a fight was stopped from knees to the head of a downed opponent, although they did play an important role in forcing an opponent to defend the knees.

i hate it when i see a wrestler keeping his knees down just to avoid getting kneed or kicked in the head. its smart strategy but makes for boring fights when someone is in a position where they cant take serious damage and just stays there.

Post #5   12/10/07 1:03:09AM   

TimW001

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I'm sure we all know who Keith Kizer is.

kkizer@boxing.nv.gov

Tell him your thoughts.

Post #6   12/10/07 1:11:47AM   

ocho-cinco

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I agree that knees and kicks to the head on the ground should be legal. I don't no if a strong wrestling influence is going to ruin the UFC, but it is something to consider. LnP is the least entertaining aspect of MMA, especially to the casual fan, and would be negated with knees to the head being legal. It would also lead to more KOs. The problem is the UFC is under a bit of a micro scope, being such a violent sport. They really need to maintain a clean record of no serious, career ending, or even life threatening injuries, in order to continue to be a main stream sport. Lets be honest thoes knees and kicks to the head to downed opponents is dangeruos. I'm all for the rule change, but I just can't see them making that change.

Post #7   12/10/07 3:37:26AM   

Stickan

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Some of the UFC fighters that most people consider exciting and popular:
Frankie Edgar
Clay Guida
Roger Huerta
Tyson Griffin
Tito Ortiz
Randy Couture

What do these guys have in common? Strong wrestling backgrounds. I do agree though that knees to the head should be implemented but I don't think wrestlers ruin the UFC.
Until knees to the head is allowed the fighters should use knees to the body/shoulders more. It's easily the most underrated attack in MMA.

Post #8   12/10/07 6:55:02AM   

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Agree with most that knees to the head shoud be allowed.
However, I don't really see the need for them if the fighter is on his back or flattened out on his chest (ie... north/south position).

However, if a guy is stuffed during a takedown I believe he should have to pay.

Post #9   12/10/07 9:51:06AM   

candynuts

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Knees to the head need to be allowed in the UFC because I wanna see Heath Herrings career resurrected!!

Post #10   12/10/07 9:55:41AM   

madmarck

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Posted by TimW001

Well I hate bad mouthing wrestlers, but I do agree with you on several levels.

And I also think they should give out yellowcards in the ufc to stop stalling.



Wrestlers also have the ability to make fights exicitng and awesome. ESP at LW. Look at Tyson Griffin, Frankie Edgar, Clag Guida, and Roger Huerta. All of these guys are having aweosme fights.
Sean Sherk may be called a guy who uses LNP to win, but he still strikes and tries to advance position.

Just a few other wrestlers who are not guilty of LNP
Takanori Gomi, Kid Yamamoto.

On the whole. LNP is the option of the fighter. Dont blame wrestlers. Blame the guys who do it.
There are not many guys who come straight from BJJ who can stop a wrestlers takedown.

The way i see it there a 3 modes to fighting. The striking (standup), The tranisition (wrestling, judo), and the ground game (subs, striking from top).
If a guy has such good wrestling that he wont let a fight go to the ground then he can stop from being beat there (liddel) or is a wreslter wants to stay on top and continually take another down and control he can (O'brien/Heath fight).

I personally hate stand ups. Why should a fighter be taken from a dominant position when he is being held by another. You never ever see sit downs when a striking battle turns lame.
The reality is that there are 2 fighters in a fight. If the guy on bottom simply holds the guy on top he cant do much at all.

Post #11   12/10/07 10:01:09AM   

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Posted by madmarck

I personally hate stand ups. Why should a fighter be taken from a dominant position when he is being held by another. You never ever see sit downs when a striking battle turns lame.
The reality is that there are 2 fighters in a fight. If the guy on bottom simply holds the guy on top he cant do much at all.



I agree. I think as long as the fighter on top is active and either landing strikes or improving a position, it should never get stood up. Gonzaga vs CC comes to mind.

However, this is the problem with 5 minute rounds. I think the refs feel obligated to stand the fights up more quickly when a round is only 5 minutes.

Post #12   12/10/07 10:54:07AM   

Hurricane_Brad

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I agree with the TS, knees to the head of a grounded opponent would give some more tools for fighters to work with to stop wrestlers from shooting at will. It bothers me when I see someone on their knees basically crawling for the takedown, and the man defending the takedown cannot strike very effectively to defend. Adding knees would make fighters think before they shoot and really set up their shots, and spice things up on the ground a bit more. I can do without the soccer kicks and stomps like Pride had, but I think the knees really should be added.

Post #13   12/10/07 12:23:32PM   

KeNn

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Dude no point saying anything about wrestlers, because all these guys have wrestling backrounds and they'll defend it, trust me I tried to explain nearly the same point.

Personally I did wrestling in high school for one year, and won't do it again.
wayy to boring, but at BJJ i love it, and like to think I accel. Wrestlers aren't fighters their wrestlers, dude any of us could go pick a wrestler off the street and beat the shit out of him.

A kickboxer, noway. He'd just kick you in the head.
MMA would just punch you out.
Jiu jitsu, might be able to take you down, and break your arm.
even TKD might be able to do some damage.

but wrestler, they'd take you down, and you'd still **** them up.

Now wrestlers don't take this the wrong way, but this is now transitioning to our sport, and now wrestlers are afraid to stand up and bang with the big boys so they lay and pray all day. (Once again not referring to all wrestlers)

So sorry if I offended anyone again, but these are my opinions on the matter.

Post #14   12/10/07 12:27:30PM   

roadking95th

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Posted by KeNn

Dude no point saying anything about wrestlers, because all these guys have wrestling backrounds and they'll defend it, trust me I tried to explain nearly the same point.

Personally I did wrestling in high school for one year, and won't do it again.
wayy to boring, but at BJJ i love it, and like to think I accel. Wrestlers aren't fighters their wrestlers, dude any of us could go pick a wrestler off the street and beat the shit out of him.

A kickboxer, noway. He'd just kick you in the head.
MMA would just punch you out.
Jiu jitsu, might be able to take you down, and break your arm.
even TKD might be able to do some damage.

but wrestler, they'd take you down, and you'd still **** them up.

Now wrestlers don't take this the wrong way, but this is now transitioning to our sport, and now wrestlers are afraid to stand up and bang with the big boys so they lay and pray all day. (Once again not referring to all wrestlers)

So sorry if I offended anyone again, but these are my opinions on the matter.



I'd have to disagree with everything you wrote. I don't want to watch some one LnP either. Top MMA fighters, who are wrestlers, don't LnP. I hate watching Kongo fight. For all of his superior standup, if you take him down, he is done. If you want to stand up wrestlers faster, let's sit down strikers. If you are a striker and are jabbing away, doing no damage, sit him down. It is the same logic.

The advantage is against the wrestler. He starts out of his element and can be quickly put back there.

A mediocre striker can get a lucky KO on somebody. It only takes an instant. It is pretty hard to take down a grown man, who can strike you, and control him to the extent that he can not get off his back, while he can strike you, for 3 or 5 five minute rounds. To me, that is pretty humiliating, being a grown man and being completely controlled, not being able to do anything unless your opponent lets you.

Some might want to rethink the knees to the head. I think the wrestlers will be able to use it more to their advantage than the strikers, whether through North-South position, cross position, or from a Head and Arm.

I think everyone hates LnP, but some take it too far. Sherk doesn't LnP. Wrestlers who have been in the game for a while do not LnP.

Post #15   12/10/07 1:37:14PM   
 
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