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For years, the UFC welterweight division was the bastion of predictability.
Matt Hughes ruled with an iron fist. Georges St-Pierre was the heir apparent. BJ Penn was…well…BJ Penn. The rest of the division was really nothing more than a bunch of opponents for the ‘Big Three’.
Oh, how things have changed. Strange things are definitely afoot in the welterweight division.
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Post #1 11/21/07 3:09:08PM
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Karo Parysian anyone? come on. he is top shelf welterweight and not even named there 
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Post #2 11/21/07 3:19:55PM
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Posted by Leland
Karo Parysian anyone? come on. he is top shelf welterweight and not even named there
Karo may be a top 10 guy but he will never be champ in this division !!
i have him #8.
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Post #3 11/21/07 3:24:05PM
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I used to think Karo was a contender but his inability to finish fights has really made me wonder if he could compete with the best.
Last edited 11/21/07 3:34PM server time by rabbit915
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Post #4 11/21/07 3:33:54PM
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Yeah, I definitely don't like the guys opinion who wrote this article. Obviously a huge Hughes nuthugger... "The greatest welterweight in the history of the sport"... I highly doubt that. "Most dominant welterweight in the history of the UFC" I would have bought that.
Not to mention saying Hughes has the best ground and pound in the game.... Uhh... Tito?
About Penn: "If and When Penn he wins the 155-lb title"
^ What a douche this guy is.
About Serra: "The Renzo Gracie black belt will be forced to fight the entire fight from his back and work for submissions while defending possibly the best ground and pound attack in the history of the sport."
At this point I don't trust anything this guy says.
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Post #5 11/21/07 4:45:54PM
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best ground and pound.....more like best lay and pray....that fight against Lytle which on paper he should have completely demolished Lytle he just layed on him for three rounds....I dont think he even worked hardly any ground and pound in that fight.....
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Post #6 11/21/07 5:19:09PM
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Posted by wrona666
best ground and pound.....more like best lay and pray....that fight against Lytle which on paper he should have completely demolished Lytle he just layed on him for three rounds....I dont think he even worked hardly any ground and pound in that fight.....
Although I don't agree with everything the author says, I think you are making an unfair assessment. Lytle has only been finished twice in his career...and both were due to cuts. The last time Hughes went to a decision before Lytle was 2004. I think people tend to throw the LnP term around too frequently...just because someone is a wrestler, it doesn't mean that they can't finish fights...Hughes has only went to decision 9 times in 46 fights.
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Post #7 11/21/07 5:45:45PM
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Karo Parysian # 3 - would school all listed except for matt or george
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Post #8 11/21/07 7:12:19PM
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MALICE
MMA Sensei
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LnP. Is anyone else as tired of this term, as I am? To use the term LnP to describe a fighters style, is an insult to the fighter, his opponent, and the sport! This sport is MMA! Mixed Martial Arts! It may not be exciting to watch, Sherk and Hughes, win their fights the way they do, but they are so good at controlling their opponents, that their opponents become completely helpless. It should not be called LnP, it should be called CGC. Complete Ground Control! Something that many fighters respect and fear.
And for anyone thinking about bringing up Sherk's banned substance incident. Lame!!
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Post #9 11/21/07 7:29:18PM
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finally some intelligence.. i hate a boring fight just as much as any other fan, but people seem to be calling every wrestler a lay and pray fighter. All fighters have a responsibility to be well rounded. If you match up poorly with a wrestler then its cause your takedown defense and bjj sucks. The reason why liddel does so well against tito is cause tito cant get him down, its also why gsp and penn do so well against hughes. If your bjj is top notch, then attempting submissions can open up sweeps or opportunties to get to your feet. If you wanna keep the fight standing against a wrestler, then do it.. dont complain for these guys who cant guard a takedown and cant get out from under their opponent.
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Post #10 11/22/07 12:54:22AM
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Juice
Learning to Sprawl
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totally agree with you here man... some of this "lay n pray" stuff is actually very technical... and they do do a lot of damage
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Post #11 11/22/07 1:14:24AM
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in all honesty i think i see the most "lnp" in cage fights that allow elbows. guy can just hold a guy theyre and nudge em with elbows all night long and as much as id like to say its good control. other orgs would consider it stalling and one of my favorite (yet recently bought) orgs gave yellow cards and 10% off their purse for doing so.i believe it takes more skill to finish a guy from their back than it does to just sit there and make sure you dont allow any openings. sitting in someones guard and pepper shotting someone is what people do when they are afraid to take any risks to get the job done. Number one name for people who use this tactic? "Sticking to a game plan"
Last edited 11/22/07 8:08AM server time by xAcidburNx
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Post #12 11/22/07 8:06:29AM
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Posted by wrona666
best ground and pound.....more like best lay and pray....that fight against Lytle which on paper he should have completely demolished Lytle he just layed on him for three rounds....I dont think he even worked hardly any ground and pound in that fight.....
Lytle is no joke. He has 2 TKO (Both cut stoppages) loses the rest of his loses are decisions. Hughes, Serra, Karo, Lawler, Nick Diaz.
As for Hughes "Lay and Pray" he is 41-5. He finishes %79 of his fights. 14 by (T)KO and 18 by submission. I'd like to know how that's lay and pray.
Last edited 11/22/07 1:18PM server time by zephead
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"To me the records were just a starting point," recalls John Paul Jones, "The most important thing was always the stage show. So many great nights. At our worst we were still better than most. At our best we could just wipe the floor with the lot of them. It was just a very good live band."
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Post #13 11/22/07 8:37:39AM
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Man you opened up a can of worms with that LNP statement!!!
Back to the topic though, I think they have their list pretty much written in stone here, just wrote the article to support the big names. Karo is well underated!!
Marcus Davis is deserving a shot at a top 10-5 opponent too!!
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Post #14 11/22/07 2:09:06PM
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