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Silva to undergo immediate surgery for broken leg

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NE-1

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Posted by isk


Posted by NE-1

You've made a 3 subpoint post about how impressed you are by checked leg kicks. Sorry if my observation offended you. No one debated that what weidman did as a whole was impressive or not. But swooning over a checked leg kick? All of a sudden a routine defense technique is offensive weapon of the year?

Leg kicks are checked every fight, every few thousand something gives and a freak injury occurs. Pretty routine stuff in terms of a game plan if. Silva sprawls on a double leg and weidmans arm broke would you be singing the same praise? I think not.




It's not about the basic technique of checking a leg kick. I'm fully aware this is a common occurrence.

It's about deliberately using the knee to check (which is uncommon), that Weidman is one of the first to successfully check Silva's leg kicks (which didn't happen often due to Silva's speed, intimidation, and low number of leg kicks he's thrown), and that a guy's leg snapped from the check (which has happened only a few times in the UFC).

To use your analogy, if Silva sprawled on Weidman to stop a takedown, and Weidman's arm broke, I probably wouldn't be saying the same thing - unless Silva did so in a way that deliberately torques one of the shooter's arms, and that this technique was refined in practice. That's the difference.



First off, one can place their knee in an optimal position to absorb a leg kick, but it's more of a matter of whether the kicker throws knee level or higher on the thy. Andersen throws low leg kicks as opposed someone like barboza.
Countless fighters check leg kicks in the manner of rotating their knee outwards. Go back and watch a few fights it's pretty prevalent.

I think you're putting too much weight in your assertion that weidman had come up with a spectacular game plan of using his knees to check kicks. Idk if you have any mma training but throwing a leg kick and having it met with a knee was pretty common when I trained. It hurt like a bitch but my leg never snapped. I dont see why this is such an amazing feat.

Based on your hypothetical torquing technique, I have to comment that a sprawl consists of thrusting your hips downward and dropping all your weight on the opponent. So essentially your torquing scenario is the normal regular defense for a double leg. Pretty sure manny gamburyan lost TUF to diaz because of this exact scenario. I don't remember anyone saying nate had trained to do some mega sprawl.

Post #31   12/29/13 9:32:28PM   

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Posted by NE-1

First off, one can place their knee in an optimal position to absorb a leg kick, but it's more of a matter of whether the kicker throws knee level or higher on the thy. Andersen throws low leg kicks as opposed someone like barboza.
Countless fighters check leg kicks in the manner of rotating their knee outwards. Go back and watch a few fights it's pretty prevalent.

I think you're putting too much weight in your assertion that weidman had come up with a spectacular game plan of using his knees to check kicks. Idk if you have any mma training but throwing a leg kick and having it met with a knee was pretty common when I trained. It hurt like a bitch but my leg never snapped. I dont see why this is such an amazing feat.

Based on your hypothetical torquing technique, I have to comment that a sprawl consists of thrusting your hips downward and dropping all your weight on the opponent. So essentially your torquing scenario is the normal regular defense for a double leg. Pretty sure manny gamburyan lost TUF to diaz because of this exact scenario. I don't remember anyone saying nate had trained to do some mega sprawl.



Yep, definitely Silva's placement of leg kicks are different than others. Some go to the thigh. Others like inside leg kicks. Depends on the fighter, and that's a factor for sure.

Personally, I think you're putting too much weight on anecdotal evidence. I've trained MMA as well. Hell, I still box weekly. I'm not using my limited experiences to talk about leg kicks, rather what I've watched. Most checked leg kicks I've seen are done with the shin. That's the traditional MT defense. Using the knee is a less common technique. It's not unheard of, right, Weidman's not the first person to use it in MMA ever, and it of course doesn't always result in a snap, but it's typically more harmful to the kicker than the standard shin check and, depending on the exact placement, less pain for the defender.

Also, while I'm aware of what a sprawl is, it's usually a pure defensive move that can lead to an advantageous position. What I'm talking about is incorporating an offensive component, like extra force on the shoulder or elbow with the intent of a submission or break. The point is intent, and while Diaz was happy to get the win, I don't think his intent was to dislocate Gamburyan's shoulder.

Post #32   12/29/13 9:52:28PM   

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Posted by isk

Personally, I think you're putting too much weight on anecdotal evidence.

. The point is intent, and while Diaz was happy to get the win, I don't think his intent was to dislocate Gamburyan's shoulder.



Lol I think we have a disconnect. I'm saying their is a lack of evidence to support your theory. Which ironically is based upon anecdotes and conjectures. ie., "longo told him to check leg kicks" "he trained to check leg kicks" and to paraphrase "diaz didnt have intent but weidman intended to break silvas leg with a check". Pretty sure if you had asked weidman to describe the 10 most plausible ways to win, him breaking silvas leg by checking a kick wouldn't have been mentioned. I'd say both events lacked the intention considering the ensuing event.

You are sensationalizing weidman checking leg kicks like he had trained the technique to end the fight as opposed to it being a routine part of mma where something highly irregular occurred. I guess we have to agree to disagree

Post #33   12/29/13 10:55:21PM   

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Posted by Webbie


I respect your opinion and don't want to sound like I'm attacking you, but I do wonder what convinces you that Anderson is the better fighter, or if you're convinced that Anderson is the better fighter at all.



Well I think given there pedigrees it'd be pretty hard to argue that Weidman is the better fighter overall.

As for versus each other, I think Anderson's better. But that's not even what I was saying.

There's no way for us to know. Both fights leave the question unanswered IMO which is why they're both so unsatisfying.


Posted by voodoo-jitsu

for anyone to say weidman's wins over silva were "lucky" is ridiculous. silva was dominated in every round they fought. the first fight silva got KTFO cold and the second got his leg snapped in half because of the way weidman checked the leg kick. get with it fellas there's a new king in town and his name is chris weidman.



Well I consider your opinion equally ridiculous. Though I never used the term lucky.

Its not Weidman's fault they were both such weird fights. He did everything he was supposed to do.

The first fight Weidman won due to Silva's clowning. The second fight he won due to a freak accident.

I've been training Muay Thai for about 6 years now. Everyone knows how to check a kick to inflict pain. Guys do it all the time. 99.999999% of the time it still doesn't result in a broken leg.

That was a freak accident. A 1 in a Million chance of happening.

And honestly, I thought it was disrespectful for Weidman to try and claim credit by talking about his leg kick training. Most of the time guys say things like "I don't want to win like that, I don't even consider this a win.." Corey Hill's opponent said it. The opponent of the guy who dislocated his shoulder said it.

Taking credit for that win is disgraceful, as was his celebration.

Post #34   12/29/13 10:55:41PM   

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Posted by NE-1
I guess we have to agree to disagree



Fo sho. We could go round and round with this, but I think it's been adequately explored.

Post #35   12/29/13 11:00:47PM   

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this thread is hilarious.


Thread title should be changed to Definition of Denial




however i argue just as much about Fedor, but even I wasn't making excuses for him when he lost to Hendo and Bigfoot

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Post #36   12/29/13 11:05:30PM   

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looks like anderson skipped one too many leg days

Post #37   12/29/13 11:55:07PM   

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Posted by isk


Posted by NE-1

First off, one can place their knee in an optimal position to absorb a leg kick, but it's more of a matter of whether the kicker throws knee level or higher on the thy. Andersen throws low leg kicks as opposed someone like barboza.
Countless fighters check leg kicks in the manner of rotating their knee outwards. Go back and watch a few fights it's pretty prevalent.

I think you're putting too much weight in your assertion that weidman had come up with a spectacular game plan of using his knees to check kicks. Idk if you have any mma training but throwing a leg kick and having it met with a knee was pretty common when I trained. It hurt like a bitch but my leg never snapped. I dont see why this is such an amazing feat.

Based on your hypothetical torquing technique, I have to comment that a sprawl consists of thrusting your hips downward and dropping all your weight on the opponent. So essentially your torquing scenario is the normal regular defense for a double leg. Pretty sure manny gamburyan lost TUF to diaz because of this exact scenario. I don't remember anyone saying nate had trained to do some mega sprawl.



Yep, definitely Silva's placement of leg kicks are different than others. Some go to the thigh. Others like inside leg kicks. Depends on the fighter, and that's a factor for sure.

Personally, I think you're putting too much weight on anecdotal evidence. I've trained MMA as well. Hell, I still box weekly. I'm not using my limited experiences to talk about leg kicks, rather what I've watched. Most checked leg kicks I've seen are done with the shin. That's the traditional MT defense. Using the knee is a less common technique. It's not unheard of, right, Weidman's not the first person to use it in MMA ever, and it of course doesn't always result in a snap, but it's typically more harmful to the kicker than the standard shin check and, depending on the exact placement, less pain for the defender.

Also, while I'm aware of what a sprawl is, it's usually a pure defensive move that can lead to an advantageous position. What I'm talking about is incorporating an offensive component, like extra force on the shoulder or elbow with the intent of a submission or break. The point is intent, and while Diaz was happy to get the win, I don't think his intent was to dislocate Gamburyan's shoulder.



checking a leg kick with the knee is a purely defensive move. Weidman did not intend to break Silvas legu in half. you are asking more from other examples than the example you're using yourself.

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Post #38   12/30/13 12:10:06AM   

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Posted by bjj1605


Posted by Webbie


I respect your opinion and don't want to sound like I'm attacking you, but I do wonder what convinces you that Anderson is the better fighter, or if you're convinced that Anderson is the better fighter at all.



Well I think given there pedigrees it'd be pretty hard to argue that Weidman is the better fighter overall.

As for versus each other, I think Anderson's better. But that's not even what I was saying.

There's no way for us to know. Both fights leave the question unanswered IMO which is why they're both so unsatisfying.


Posted by voodoo-jitsu

for anyone to say weidman's wins over silva were "lucky" is ridiculous. silva was dominated in every round they fought. the first fight silva got KTFO cold and the second got his leg snapped in half because of the way weidman checked the leg kick. get with it fellas there's a new king in town and his name is chris weidman.



Well I consider your opinion equally ridiculous. Though I never used the term lucky.

Its not Weidman's fault they were both such weird fights. He did everything he was supposed to do.

The first fight Weidman won due to Silva's clowning. The second fight he won due to a freak accident.

I've been training Muay Thai for about 6 years now. Everyone knows how to check a kick to inflict pain. Guys do it all the time. 99.999999% of the time it still doesn't result in a broken leg.

That was a freak accident. A 1 in a Million chance of happening.

And honestly, I thought it was disrespectful for Weidman to try and claim credit by talking about his leg kick training. Most of the time guys say things like "I don't want to win like that, I don't even consider this a win.." Corey Hill's opponent said it. The opponent of the guy who dislocated his shoulder said it.

Taking credit for that win is disgraceful, as was his celebration.




you mean silva lost the first fight due to him doing what silva does. he's clowned is opponents for a long time. he was good at it, no doubt, but this time he had a problem. weidman wasn't having it and put silva to sleep. ( thats a fact)


weidman aimed to knee silva's shin when it came in so why wouldn't he take credit for it? silva's leg snapping in half was the freak accident..


nothing in my OP was opinion. it's fact.. silva got his ass whooped 2 fights in a row. weidman hasn't lost a round to silva and if anyone's seeing it differently than that, they wasn't watching what i seen.

and how was his celebration disgraceful? was he on the cage flexing his muscles or standing over silva beating his chest, maybe he was flicking off silva's corner men? admittedly i might have missed it when i was doing cartwheels in my living room.


EDIT*

and my OP is not ridiculous, thats a gold star post

Last edited 12/30/13 12:53AM server time by voodoo-jitsu
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Post #39   12/30/13 12:43:53AM   

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Im not in denial about the fact silva has lost to weidman twice, what i don't except is people already talking about weidman being better than silva. You can not compare the two until weidman has defended his title against all the best fighters in the division. if he doesn't have mutiple title defences he will just be remembered as the man who beat silva, imo that means nothing if you don't back it up

Post #40   12/30/13 4:33:29AM   

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Posted by voodoo-jitsu

for anyone to say weidman's wins over silva were "lucky" is ridiculous. silva was dominated in every round they fought. the first fight silva got KTFO cold and the second got his leg snapped in half because of the way weidman checked the leg kick. get with it fellas there's a new king in town and his name is chris weidman.




Weidman ko Silva in the first fight that cant be argued, the 2nd fight wasn't lucky for Weidman it was unlucky for Silva. There the facts that matter, saying Weidman won every round in both fights doesn't mean a great deal because sonnen won every round until he got submitted and ko. The fact is Weidman won the first fight and we will never know who would have won the 2nd fight

Post #41   12/30/13 4:43:40AM   

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I think people who say unequivocally that Weidman is the better fighter of the two is either a huge unabashed Weidman fan, or simply a Silva hater.

1. It has NOT been proven that Weidman is the better striker. Did he knock out Silva in their first fight? Yes. But Matt Serra knocked out GSP in their first fight too, does that make Matt Serra a better striker than GSP? I say no.

Silva is faster, demonstrating that in the second round of their first fight. And keep in mind that the first round of their first fight was very similar to the first round of the second fight, with a fresh Weidman capitalizing on his wrestling credentials. The second round of their first fight painted a very different story with Weidman moving much slower than Silva. Does that mean Weidman wouldn't have won the round on points had he not KO'd Silva? I don't know, he may have, but we won't know because he caught him with a flash KO.

2. Weidman's wins are NOT flukes, but they certainly have asterisk's next to them. Why? Because there are many questions we need answered. I think we all had similar questions when Matt Serra beat GSP. Most of us thought that GSP was still the better fighter, but what if GSP went out and broke his leg early on in their second fight? There would be just as many questions as we have now, if not more.

I am not a Weidman hater, nor do I question his abilities, but I am also not going to say he is the better fighter based on the evidence we currently have. If the rest of the second fight played out like the first round, I would be comfortable in saying that Weidman had Silva's number, but we were cheated out of that as fans, because of a freak occurrence.

Last edited 12/30/13 12:32PM server time by warglory
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Post #42   12/30/13 12:31:22PM   

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Chris Weidman's "Dirty" Defense.

Like I said before: let's say Silva's leg didn't break. The check would still have damaged his leg badly enough that he probably would've refrained from throwing many more kicks with that leg. At the very least he would've been much more careful with when and where to throw the kick, and that would've made his entire offense much less effective when you consider that his leg kicks were the only thing he really had going for him against Weidman. I'm not saying Weidman is the overall "better fighter" so to speak, but against Anderson I do believe he would win 9 times out of 10 based off of their two fights against each other.


Posted by bjj1605

As for versus each other, I think Anderson's better.



This is something I can't even begin to understand. Silva never showed at any point in either fight that he had any advantage over Weidman whatsoever.

If anything it'd be safer to assume that Weidman would've been victorious each time rather than Anderson after what we saw in both fights.

But to each his own. It's a waste of time debating this any further.

Last edited 12/30/13 1:53PM server time by Webbie
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Post #43   12/30/13 1:39:27PM   

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a wise man once said:



Posted by Webbie

This is something I can't even begin to understand. Silva never showed at any point in either fight that he had any advantage over Weidman whatsoever.

If anything it'd be safer to assume that Weidman would've been victorious each time rather than Anderson after what we saw in both fights.

But to each his own. It's a waste of time debating this any further.

Post #44   12/30/13 3:33:56PM   

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Posted by Webbie

Chris Weidman's "Dirty" Defense.

Like I said before: let's say Silva's leg didn't break. The check would still have damaged his leg badly enough that he probably would've refrained from throwing many more kicks with that leg. At the very least he would've been much more careful with when and where to throw the kick, and that would've made his entire offense much less effective when you consider that his leg kicks were the only thing he really had going for him against Weidman. I'm not saying Weidman is the overall "better fighter" so to speak, but against Anderson I do believe he would win 9 times out of 10 based off of their two fights against each other.


Posted by bjj1605

As for versus each other, I think Anderson's better.



This is something I can't even begin to understand. Silva never showed at any point in either fight that he had any advantage over Weidman whatsoever.

If anything it'd be safer to assume that Weidman would've been victorious each time rather than Anderson after what we saw in both fights.



What else do you see in your crystal ball?

Post #45   12/30/13 7:21:23PM   
 
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