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Is Herschel Walker An Embarrassment To MMA?

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FlashyG

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Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


My point of contention here is that people are focusing on Brock now rather than Brock at the time he was afforded his opportunity to fight within the UFC. Brock was 1-0 against a nobody and Walker made his debut against a 1-2 opponent. I don't think I'm grasping at straws here when I say that neither one of them had proven anything in the world of MMA.



Maybe you're right that both hadn't proven themselves but you're missing my point completely when it comes to Brocks second fight vs Walkers. To warrant a spot on the main card Brock had to fight top competition from the second he arrived in the UFC. That Walker isn't, doesn't reflect negatively on him but it makes Strikeforce look amateurish by giving him weak opponents and televising it to make him look better than he likely is.

If you wanted to make an argument to say the UFC operates the way Strikeforce is handling Walker I'd have used Kimbo as an example not Brock.

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Post #31   11/18/10 11:21:34AM   

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I'm one of those that definitely didn't want Brock getting a title shot so soon. Seemed unfair, yet he definitely was good enough. I really don't want to cut down any marital art, yet i will say this. Wrestling is about the best background you can have going into a fighting career. Brock had wrestled at a high level for a long time and wrestling hasn't really changed much in the past 10 years. I'm sure it took around a year to get himself back to competition wrestling shape, but its like riding a bike. High level wrestling is really advantageous especially when you talking heavyweights.

Last edited 11/18/10 12:51PM server time by Gannon
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Post #32   11/18/10 12:50:27PM   

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Posted by FlashyG

Maybe you're right that both hadn't proven themselves but you're missing my point completely when it comes to Brocks second fight vs Walkers. To warrant a spot on the main card Brock had to fight top competition from the second he arrived in the UFC. That Walker isn't, doesn't reflect negatively on him but it makes Strikeforce look amateurish by giving him weak opponents and televising it to make him look better than he likely is.

If you wanted to make an argument to say the UFC operates the way Strikeforce is handling Walker I'd have used Kimbo as an example not Brock.



I'm not going to compare an elite athlete to Kimbo Slice. If anything, my point is made more clear BY comparing him to Brock Lesnar. Lesnar is about as physical of a freak as you can get. He's a top notch athlete that is rarely seen in sports. Honestly, about the only thing I see that separates him and Lesnar is age. Sure, you could say size, but that's an intangible.


Posted by Gannon

I'm one of those that definitely didn't want Brock getting a title shot so soon. Seemed unfair, yet he definitely was good enough. I really don't want to cut down any marital art, yet i will say this. Wrestling is about the best background you can have going into a fighting career. Brock had wrestled at a high level for a long time and wrestling hasn't really changed much in the past 10 years. I'm sure it took around a year to get himself back to competition wrestling shape, but its like riding a bike. High level wrestling is really advantageous especially when you talking heavyweights.



Gannon, he only seems good enough NOW. Not then. He was 1-1 in the UFC at the time of his title shot. I'd hardly call that good enough. Were we talking about ANY other HW, this would be laughable. I might agree to the fact that wrestling hasn't changed much at the collegiate level, but it's certainly changed at the MMA level.

Post #33   11/18/10 3:12:31PM   

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Posted by BlueSkiesBurn
Honestly, about the only thing I see that separates him and Lesnar is age. Sure, you could say size, but that's an intangible.



There might also be a major divide in their MMA skills but we won't know how good Walker is until Strikeforce gives him a real fight.

You keep trying to defend Walker but nobody is attacking him, Its Strikeforce that I'm saying is the problem. If his next fight was against any of their former title holders(Babalu, Mousasi, Lawal or even Bobby Southworth) I'd agree with the similarities to Brock, but Brock was never protected by the UFC. If anything the exact opposite was done with him.


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Gannon, he only seems good enough NOW. Not then. He was 1-1 in the UFC at the time of his title shot.



How can you say he wasn't good enough when he won the fight? You can say his record was undeserving of the shot, but winning the title pretty much invalidates any argument that he was not skilled enough to be fighting for the title. His only loss at the time came to the former HW champion and it was a controversial loss considering he was dominating the fight until a referee stand-up.

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Post #34   11/18/10 3:36:11PM   

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Posted by FlashyG

There might also be a major divide in their MMA skills but we won't know how good Walker is until Strikeforce gives him a real fight.

You keep trying to defend Walker but nobody is attacking him, Its Strikeforce that I'm saying is the problem. If his next fight was against any of their former title holders(Babalu, Mousasi, Lawal or even Bobby Southworth) I'd agree with the similarities to Brock, but Brock was never protected by the UFC. If anything the exact opposite was done with him.



Right, that's what I'm saying, give the guy his shot and let's see what he's made of. It's not Walker's fault that they're protecting him. The title of this thread "Is Herschel Walker An Embarrassment To MMA?" not "Is Strikeforce Babying The Hell Out Of Herschel Walker"



How can you say he wasn't good enough when he won the fight? You can say his record was undeserving of the shot, but winning the title pretty much invalidates any argument that he was not skilled enough to be fighting for the title. His only loss at the time came to the former HW champion and it was a controversial loss considering he was dominating the fight until a referee stand-up.



Brother, I'm not arguing the now. Separate Brock now, from when Brock was 1-1 in the UFC getting a title shot. It's very easy to look back on that Mir loss seeing what Brock has done since then and say "he was so dominate, Mir got lucky." At the time, however, I'm sure YOU and a lot of other people saw Mir pull of that kneebar and say, that's what Brock gets for trying fight in MMA.

You cannot include what Brock has done since then into the argument because Walker hasn't been afforded the opportunity to GET there. I'm solely basing this off Lesnar getting PPV time at 1-0 vs. Walker getting main card status at 0-0 now 1-0.

There's no difference.

Post #35   11/18/10 3:55:25PM   

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Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Right, that's what I'm saying, give the guy his shot and let's see what he's made of. It's not Walker's fault that they're protecting him. The title of this thread "Is Herschel Walker An Embarrassment To MMA?" not "Is Strikeforce Babying The Hell Out Of Herschel Walker"

Brother, I'm not arguing the now. Separate Brock now, from when Brock was 1-1 in the UFC getting a title shot. It's very easy to look back on that Mir loss seeing what Brock has done since then and say "he was so dominate, Mir got lucky." At the time, however, I'm sure YOU and a lot of other people saw Mir pull of that kneebar and say, that's what Brock gets for trying fight in MMA.

You cannot include what Brock has done since then into the argument because Walker hasn't been afforded the opportunity to GET there. I'm solely basing this off Lesnar getting PPV time at 1-0 vs. Walker getting main card status at 0-0 now 1-0.

There's no difference.




We're arguing in circles. I came into the thread right after Lohmann pointed out that the thread title was misleading and that the quote in question had more to do with calling strikeforce an embarassment than Walker.

I've never swayed from arguing that point. So regardless of the thread title thats what were talking about now, not Walker being an embarassment.

As for the last part of your argument, I can't put it any clearer than to say the difference between Lesnar getting PPV time in his second fight at 1-0 and Walker getting main card status at 0-0 is their opponent.

Frank Mir deserved to be on the main card of any event at the time. Greg Nagy, not so much.

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Post #36   11/18/10 4:13:36PM   

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Posted by FlashyG

We're arguing in circles. I came into the thread right after Lohmann pointed out that the thread title was misleading and that the quote in question had more to do with calling strikeforce an embarassment than Walker.

I've never swayed from arguing that point. So regardless of the thread title thats what were talking about now, not Walker being an embarassment.

As for the last part of your argument, I can't put it any clearer than to say the difference between Lesnar getting PPV time in his second fight at 1-0 and Walker getting main card status at 0-0 is their opponent.

Frank Mir deserved to be on the main card of any event at the time. Greg Nagy, not so much.



I would wholeheartedly agree with Nagy not being a draw. I don't think that anyone could argue, however, that, were it up to Herschel, he would have picked a much different opponent.

Post #37   11/18/10 4:17:18PM   

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Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

I would wholeheartedly agree with Nagy not being a draw. I don't think that anyone could argue, however, that, were it up to Herschel, he would have picked a much different opponent.



All the more reason Strikeforce should be embarrassed for how they've handled his career so far. He should be fighting someone a lot better than Scott Carson in his second fight now that he's gotten his feet wet.

Carson's 4 wins have come against guys who have 1 win between them all. He has fought once in the last 10 years and got knocked out in 3 minutes, and this qualifies him to be on the maincard of a televised event?

I don't know how anyone can defend Strikeforce on that one.

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Post #38   11/18/10 4:31:48PM   

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Posted by FlashyG


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

I would wholeheartedly agree with Nagy not being a draw. I don't think that anyone could argue, however, that, were it up to Herschel, he would have picked a much different opponent.



All the more reason Strikeforce should be embarrassed for how they've handled his career so far. He should be fighting someone a lot better than Scott Carson in his second fight now that he's gotten his feet wet.

Carson's 4 wins have come against guys who have 1 win between them all. He has fought once in the last 10 years and got knocked out in 3 minutes, and this qualifies him to be on the maincard of a televised event?

I don't know how anyone can defend Strikeforce on that one.



Do you think that they might be slow playing him because of his age? If he wins this fight, maybe they give him a tougher name.

Post #39   11/18/10 4:46:29PM   

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I really don't think strikeforce is ever planning to fight Walker against anybody with real cred. Thats just it. We are going to see him fight a few guys that shouldn't be fighting on main cards. The viewer is the only one getting fooled and we miss out on some really cool matchups.

The UFC has had its freak show fights, however they really throw these guys to the wolves. In my view walker doesn't stand a chance against real competition, but only hardcore fans know this.

Post #40   11/18/10 5:18:38PM   

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Posted by Gannon

I really don't think strikeforce is ever planning to fight Walker against anybody with real cred. Thats just it. We are going to see him fight a few guys that shouldn't be fighting on main cards. The viewer is the only one getting fooled and we miss out on some really cool matchups.

The UFC has had its freak show fights, however they really throw these guys to the wolves. In my view walker doesn't stand a chance against real competition, but only hardcore fans know this.



Hell, they could at least try it. I mean, Couture got his black belt in BJJ for submitting James Toney.

Post #41   11/18/10 5:33:53PM   

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Carson has trained MMA for over a dozen years including training with Liddell for 8 years. Compared to Nagy who had maybe 2 years max of MMA training at the RITC training center and I believe I even read in an interview earlier this year that Nagy considered himself a mediocre athlete when he played sports in school.

In reality, a guy like Carson should have been Walker's first fight but since they started out with Nagy, it actually does fit as as a step up in competition. Carson has superior striking, wrestling, strength, and experience compared to Nagy. Cardio-wise though, I have no clue.

I'm not defending Strikeforce's matchmaking or decision to put the fight on the main card, just thought I'd point out differences between the two for those who assume Carson is another Nagy. This could be very competitive if comes in with conditioning.

Root for Carson and we probably don't see Walker on the main card. Problem solved for everyone.

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Post #42   11/18/10 5:44:04PM   

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Posted by Kpro

Carson has trained MMA for over a dozen years including training with Liddell for 8 years. Compared to Nagy who had maybe 2 years max of MMA training at the RITC training center and I believe I even read in an interview earlier this year that Nagy considered himself a mediocre athlete when he played sports in school.

In reality, a guy like Carson should have been Walker's first fight but since they started out with Nagy, it actually does fit as as a step up in competition. Carson has superior striking, wrestling, strength, and experience compared to Nagy. Cardio-wise though, I have no clue.

I'm not defending Strikeforce's matchmaking or decision to put the fight on the main card, just thought I'd point out differences between the two for those who assume Carson is another Nagy. This could be very competitive if comes in with conditioning.

Root for Carson and we probably don't see Walker on the main card. Problem solved for everyone.



Let's hug it out, b*tches!

Post #43   11/18/10 5:46:49PM   

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Thanks KPro that makes me feel much better :)

Post #44   11/18/10 6:02:50PM   

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Posted by Gannon

Thanks KPro that makes me feel much better :)



Scott Carson had to step in for Vince Young who pulled out of the fight when it was announced there would be a Wonderlic test post-fight.


*rimshot*

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Post #45   11/18/10 6:37:29PM   
 
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