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My argument for Liddell>Silva & Hughes> St. Pierre

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Rush

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Posted by nickcuc547

i disagree on silva chuck, i think wandy is the worst possible matchup for chuck because he will be right there for chuck to hit because of his aggressive style, i thnk he gets ko'd early but it should be an explosive fight.
.





I don't know. I always thought that Chuck preferred the striking range outside the clinch. I think Wanderlei is a good enough striker to move in and out of that range. He has tools within the clinch and ranged striking too. Like I said, I think Wanderlei has the edge because he appears to have (or at least utilizes) more tools than Chuck. But then again, I am basing my assessment off of Chuck's recent performances in the past year or two.

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Post #16   12/11/07 9:44:38PM   

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Posted by Pitbull09

Personally man, I am not a guy who puts much time into my ranking and dont care if im attacked for them. I rank Kongo higher because he is closer to a title shot than Mirko. Kongos ground skill is embarrassing and he is by far not close to Mirkos skill (or maybe past skill)

Im sorry to inform you, but Cro Cop has two loses (one a KO to a kick!) in a row and CURRENT rankings should not allow him to be to high though he is capable of more. Mirko lost to Kongo, but I see your like alot of people and choose to attack rankings instead of the real subject.

Its pretty easy to act like a jerk and say the only reason you think GSP will win cause your obviously a fan "Rush" and your bias is imparring your decision but I chose not to say that cause Im staying on the issue.




I wasn't attacking your rankings, but rather the notion that you alluded to GSP being winning because of two "nut strikes". i.e. You appeared to give GSP less credit from that win because of the nut strikes, despite the fact that Hughes said they weren't nut shots.

I used your rankings as an example of holding a double standard. i.e. Kongo nailed Cro Cop several times in the nuts and you still consider him a higher ranked fighter. Yet you considered GSP won the fight because of his alleged nut shots.

As much as I don't agree with your rankings, I wasn't attacking them. If I was attacking them it would look something like this....



Posted by Pitbull09

Personally man, I am not a guy who puts much time into my ranking and dont care if im attacked for them. I rank Kongo higher because he is closer to a title shot than Mirko. Kongos ground skill is embarrassing and he is by far not close to Mirkos skill (or maybe past skill)




How can you rank anyone close to a title shot when you consider their ground game is embarrassing?


Posted by Pitbull09

Im sorry to inform you, but Cro Cop has two loses (one a KO to a kick!) in a row and CURRENT rankings should not allow him to be to high though he is capable of more.



Then why do you have him ranked at 6th?


Other inconsistencies -

You have Matt Hughes ranked higher in your pound for pound rankings, but GSP ranked higher in your WW rankings. How can this be so? I don't think you can use the aspect of title defenses or anything like that considering you emphasized that these are CURRENT rankings in your post above.

Randy is ranked higher than Fedor on your HW list, but is not even on your pound for pound list (but Fedor is)

A similar argument can be made with Dan Henderson and Wanderlei, although I can see the possibility Dan ranking higher because you have him ranked in two divisions.



If you don't like keeping up with rankings and having other members use them as a way to argue your logic with respect to your posted opinions, then I would suggest not having anything listed for rankings.



Posted by Pitbull09

Its pretty easy to act like a jerk and say the only reason you think GSP will win cause your obviously a fan "Rush" and your bias is imparring your decision but I chose not to say that cause Im staying on the issue.




Well, actually you just said it and also insinuated that I am a jerk as well. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

If you think I only think GSP will win is because I am a fan of GSP, that is ok, it doesn't bother me if you think that, but you have made it blatantly obvious that you ignored my detailed assessment of why I thought GSP would win (in this thread and others) as well as the fact that I am one of the few people that do not think GSP will TKO Hughes in the first one or two rounds.

Post #17   12/11/07 10:12:31PM   

TimW001

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Here's my little argument.

Wanderlei over Chuck - You've got too look at Wanderlei's current training habits/partners and stuff. If this fight was some time ago it would be different. But we all know that Couture beat Liddell standing at one point, so I'm sure Randy will be giving Wandy some little tid-bits about Chuck's style. But if you measure up their two styles, chuck has a much better chance than most people are giving him. Just looking at the way both of them throw there strikes and hold there hands, chuck looks like he could win. But I think Wanderlei will be a bit different in this fight. I think the best gameplan for him is to not stand around outside and trade with him, I'de say, clinch up, then fake a takedown then go into a thai clinch and throw some knees, Then after that, stay close wait till chuck goes down.

GSP over Hughes - I'm going with GSP here but I think Hughes has a better chance to win than most people do. Hughes, in the second fight, did try to stand with him, and got severely outdone. In this fight I think Hughes will know to take him down nearly right away and try to use manuvers that favour the person with more muscle. Hughes shouldn't try to do some flashy JJ, he should stick to orthodox wrestling and GnP. There's a few other factors that I know I'm forgetting.


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Last edited 12/11/07 10:54PM server time by TImW001
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Post #18   12/11/07 10:54:30PM   

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Posted by TimW001

GSP over Hughes - I'm going with GSP here but I think Hughes has a better chance to win than most people do. Hughes, in the second fight, did try to stand with him, and got severely outdone. In this fight I think Hughes will know to take him down nearly right away and try to use manuvers that favour the person with more muscle. Hughes shouldn't try to do some flashy JJ, he should stick to orthodox wrestling and GnP. There's a few other factors that I know I'm forgetting.




I agree for the most part,, but didn't Hughes say he was going back to basics with GSP in their second match or was that after he lost to GSP (i.e. talking about the Lytle fight?). Either way he didn't look like the Hughes I saw prior to that.

Post #19   12/11/07 11:06:17PM   

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I agree with you on the Liddell and Wanderlei fight, but I don't see how Hughes picking GSP (because he is confident) suggests that Hughes will beat GSP.

Hell, I could say that GSP is going to win because he took this fight on "short-notice" against a top caliber fighter such as Matt Hughes. And when GSP's head is in the right place, no one can stop him. =\

Post #20   12/11/07 11:19:28PM   

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Posted by Rush


Posted by Pitbull09

Personally man, I am not a guy who puts much time into my ranking and dont care if im attacked for them. I rank Kongo higher because he is closer to a title shot than Mirko. Kongos ground skill is embarrassing and he is by far not close to Mirkos skill (or maybe past skill)

Im sorry to inform you, but Cro Cop has two loses (one a KO to a kick!) in a row and CURRENT rankings should not allow him to be to high though he is capable of more. Mirko lost to Kongo, but I see your like alot of people and choose to attack rankings instead of the real subject.

Its pretty easy to act like a jerk and say the only reason you think GSP will win cause your obviously a fan "Rush" and your bias is imparring your decision but I chose not to say that cause Im staying on the issue.




I wasn't attacking your rankings, but rather the notion that you alluded to GSP being winning because of two "nut strikes". i.e. You appeared to give GSP less credit from that win because of the nut strikes, despite the fact that Hughes said they weren't nut shots.

I used your rankings as an example of holding a double standard. i.e. Kongo nailed Cro Cop several times in the nuts and you still consider him a higher ranked fighter. Yet you considered GSP won the fight because of his alleged nut shots.

As much as I don't agree with your rankings, I wasn't attacking them. If I was attacking them it would look something like this....



Posted by Pitbull09

Personally man, I am not a guy who puts much time into my ranking and dont care if im attacked for them. I rank Kongo higher because he is closer to a title shot than Mirko. Kongos ground skill is embarrassing and he is by far not close to Mirkos skill (or maybe past skill)




How can you rank anyone close to a title shot when you consider their ground game is embarrassing?


Posted by Pitbull09

Im sorry to inform you, but Cro Cop has two loses (one a KO to a kick!) in a row and CURRENT rankings should not allow him to be to high though he is capable of more.



Then why do you have him ranked at 6th?


Other inconsistencies -

You have Matt Hughes ranked higher in your pound for pound rankings, but GSP ranked higher in your WW rankings. How can this be so? I don't think you can use the aspect of title defenses or anything like that considering you emphasized that these are CURRENT rankings in your post above.

Randy is ranked higher than Fedor on your HW list, but is not even on your pound for pound list (but Fedor is)

A similar argument can be made with Dan Henderson and Wanderlei, although I can see the possibility Dan ranking higher because you have him ranked in two divisions.



If you don't like keeping up with rankings and having other members use them as a way to argue your logic with respect to your posted opinions, then I would suggest not having anything listed for rankings.



Posted by Pitbull09

Its pretty easy to act like a jerk and say the only reason you think GSP will win cause your obviously a fan "Rush" and your bias is imparring your decision but I chose not to say that cause Im staying on the issue.




Well, actually you just said it and also insinuated that I am a jerk as well. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

If you think I only think GSP will win is because I am a fan of GSP, that is ok, it doesn't bother me if you think that, but you have made it blatantly obvious that you ignored my detailed assessment of why I thought GSP would win (in this thread and others) as well as the fact that I am one of the few people that do not think GSP will TKO Hughes in the first one or two rounds.



I apoligize for the jerk comment but you were doing the same thing by ignoring what I wrote and simply ignoring it since I'm a guy who ranks Kongo above Mirko. Someone tell me how that has to do with this fight. To me, its an excuse to ignore what i said and conter it with an insult. I did the same and apoligize but I made my point obvious in both posts what i think and why.

Lol, we both think GSP will win though, it amazing how an arguement like this started

Post #21   12/11/07 11:26:57PM   

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hmmmmm...

The fact that Wanderlei like to push forward does not mean he's going to do it. Its all about the game plan.... Look at Rampage Vs. Liddell 2 ...... "Rampage", his nickname and previous fights say it, but for that fight he was calmed, waiting and he got it right ... and for Hendo he exploded right after the bell... its strategy.... maybe Wandy will do the same? and, maybe Chuck will be ready for it ? I'm taking Wandy by a nice game plan and maybe some shifts during the fight, this is a really important fight for both of them, so I don't think they're focused on knocking the other out, but looking for the best way to win.


Hughes and GSP ...... don't know yet..... but something tells me that Hughes will take this one, can't tell how or why, its just a feeling that's why I'm picking GSP anyways.... but putting $ on Hughes

Post #22   12/12/07 2:33:08AM   

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If Wand thinks he should take it slow he will, if you disagree you haven't seen Cro Cop Wand 1, he wen't for take downs and didn't try and stand and trade with him. Next fight with Cro Cop I think he felt he could Ko him, don't know why but he did. Wand can follow game plans and he more then likely will only attack if he thinks he can exploit chucks poor hand placement. Rampage wen't at chuck in their first fight, and it worked, just because chucks a "counter striker" doesn't mean you can't pressure him.

Post #23   12/12/07 4:08:59AM   

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Im not saying who will win, But............

I watched Liddell V Jardine again last night and you can see, without looking too hard, Chuck was frustrated as hell. Now im not taking a thing away from Keith, He did a terrific job. Im just trying to say that Chuck was looking for a KO way too much, Insted of letting it just come, He was searching for it. He kicked ass in the 1st and by then he took too many kick's and had not enough left to finish him.

Liddell would of guarranteed Dana he will win that fight, By the second round that would of played on him 'Big time ', You can tell his head was in another place that night, Throwing a spinning backfist WTF!

You wont see the "old" Chuck Liddell on the 29th, You will just see Chuck Liddell "with a clear head".

It will be a WAR.

ps. GSP > HUGHES!

Post #24   12/12/07 4:34:36AM   

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Posted by Pitbull09

I apoligize for the jerk comment




No need to apologize. I take very few things to heart on Internet forums and hold very few grudges.

Post #25   12/12/07 10:49:16AM   

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Posted by gsquat

This is my reasoning for my two UFC 79 "upset" picks. Oh, and If you're not patient enough to read all of this then you have ADD.

Lets Start with Liddell vs Silva.

Looking at Liddell's lost against Jardine, its obvious Jardine made a gameplan to beat Chuck by points which he carried out flawlessly. Unfortunately for Chuck,
he didn't adjust his style to the fight at hand and lost because of it. Keith played defensively, popped in for a leg or body kick, and then moved back out. Chuck relies on his opponents coming towards him and for them to be the agressor in the fight. That is why you can always picture Chuck with his arms out circling and strafing around the ring. Keith never was the agressor and this f#cked with Chuck big time. So, a couple of times, he decided to try to move in on Keith and almost got knocked out as a result. This made him extremely uncomfortable and he stayed defensive the rest of the fight, which was not enough to win.

As far as the fight with Rampage goes, he's a better striker than Chuck. End of story.

The rest is pretty simple. Forget age or fights past. Look at the present stats. Wanderlei Silva loves to move forward and strike. He has a pretty good muay thai clinch (see Rampage fight), but Chuck may be too tall for him to do anything with the clinch. I completely expect to see vintage Chuck Liddell and for him to knock out an agressive Wanderlei.

I know people are saying,"But Rampage beat Chuck, and Wanderlei beat Rampage. So Wanderlei can beat Chuck." Its not that easy. Its all about matchups. Silva beat Rampage with a knee in the clinch. That wont be nearly as easy with Liddell. So having read all that, I pick Liddell over Silva in the first by knockout.

Now for Hughes vs St. Pierre

The fights past arent too relevant except that they're playing a back and forth. Hughes beat St. Pierre by armbar in the first fight, Georges adjusted in the next fight. He fought more agressively. Avoided take downs and won the fight. So now its Matt Hughes's turn. Hughes picked St. Pierre to fight. You say "so" but that says a lot to me. His confidence going into this next fight must be solid. He's a very smart fighter so you know he's going to devise a gameplan based on how St. Pierre beat him last time. I don't think it will be easy for either fighter or one-sided, that is why I say Hughes over St.Pierre by split decision.

UFC 78 was my first fight on mmapg and I made the unfortunate mistake of picking fighters I hoped would win instead the fighters I thought would win. So I've decided to look at fights deeper and more thoroughly. Thats why I was 4-5 for 78 and 7-2 for the finale. I'm interested to know what others think about these fights and more importantly why.

You made a good point about chuck's style lending him to ko wand. But you made another great point about how jardine "exposed" chuck. If wand was traning with randy coture, who has the best gameplans, than i think he will be able to figure out that wand needs to utalize kicks more and out score chcuk.

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Post #26   12/12/07 1:59:00PM   

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Posted by MMA

I agree with you on the Liddell and Wanderlei fight, but I don't see how Hughes picking GSP (because he is confident) suggests that Hughes will beat GSP.

Hell, I could say that GSP is going to win because he took this fight on "short-notice" against a top caliber fighter such as Matt Hughes. And when GSP's head is in the right place, no one can stop him. =\



I didn't say that I thought Matt Hughes was going to win strictly because he picked GSP. I just said that showed his level of confidence going into this fight. I think Hughes will win because they're playing a game of chess and it his turn to move.

Post #27   12/12/07 4:27:57PM   

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Posted by Rush

GSP and Hughes. If GSP can shake off Hughes' first take down then he will win the fight. GSP is still in a dimension above Hughes WRT striking



Very good point, Rush. If Hughes gets GSP in the clinch and GSP just shrugs him off, that has to affect Hughes in a negative way and might make him desperate. That's where GSP will rock him. And being a Hughes fan, that is what I am worried about.

But, I think another point that should be brought up is that with GSP's KO loss to an inferior stand up fighter, Hughes could get into GSP's head if he can land a solid punch that backs GSP up. This possibly could rattle St. Pierre causing him to remember the fight with Serra. I would say that would have the same negative mental impact on GSP as a stuffed takedown would have on Hughes.

Hughes has to stay focused and "weather the storm" on the feet to gain confidence that he can still beat GSP.

Post #28   12/12/07 4:58:35PM   

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Posted by gsquat


Posted by MMA

I agree with you on the Liddell and Wanderlei fight, but I don't see how Hughes picking GSP (because he is confident) suggests that Hughes will beat GSP.

Hell, I could say that GSP is going to win because he took this fight on "short-notice" against a top caliber fighter such as Matt Hughes. And when GSP's head is in the right place, no one can stop him. =\



I didn't say that I thought Matt Hughes was going to win strictly because he picked GSP. I just said that showed his level of confidence going into this fight. I think Hughes will win because they're playing a game of chess and it his turn to move.



matt serra is a better striker then matt hughes if matt hughes try's to stand with gsp (what he tried to do the last time they met) we will get the same fight we had last time gsp FTW!!!

Post #29   12/12/07 5:49:56PM   

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matt serra is a better striker then matt hughes if matt hughes try's to stand with gsp (what he tried to do the last time they met) we will get the same fight we had last time gsp FTW!!!


(sigh)... No Matt Serra is not a better striker than Matt Hughes. Your delving out of the realm of opinion and into fact. Do not use the GSP fight as an example of Serra's standup either. As far as I'm concerned that fight has no relevance as to either fighter's skills. I'm sure Matt Hughes knows exactly what he can and can't do against GSP and what he needs to do to win. I think the smarter fighter will win this fight, and that happens to be Hughes.

Post #30   12/13/07 9:35:20AM   
 
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