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richie's TUF 3 rant

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richieb19

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OK, I've been hearing bad reviews on Ken Shamrock's TUF 3 coaching performance for long enough, so I thought I'd take the time to try and lay everything out for everyone so they clearly see whats going on... First of all, I'll touch the editing claim, the one which no one seems (or wants) to believe. Ken Shamrock has openly said numerous on numerous occasions that the show was edited to make him look bad, and to make Tito look good. Which actually makes perfect sence considering that at the time Tito was aiming for another shot at the title, and Shamrock was/is in the twilight of his career. Now not only has it been edited against him, Ken says that Rich Franklin and Matt Hughes have also complained about being unjustly edited on the show. Now you can chose to believe what you want, but the fact remains that the serie shows very limited amounts of actual training and coaching footage, and above all else it is a reality show, which makes editing a major factor in bringing in audiences.

Secondly, I'd like to touch on the assistant coaches brought in. Now don't get me wrong here, I give full credit for Tito having brought in Saul Soliz and Dean Lister as his assistant coaches, but for some odd reason people love to nitpick on Ken's choices. Ken Shamrock brought in Roman Pollock as a boxing coach, and Dan Freeman as a strength and nutrition coach. Now the most popular argument I often read is that Ken brought in a bodybuilder instead of a BJJ coach. I don't understand why the average MMA fan hates bodybuilders (and pro-wrestlers), but it seems to be all that people could say, all the while ignoring the fact that strength and nutrition are of the utmost importance when competing in a tournament and being forced to live in a house with other competitors. Dan Freeman has actually been with Ken his entire career, and Ken has almost always been able to out-power his opponents and fight long periods of time... coincidence? Now back to the whole BJJ debacle, I can't even begin to understand why BJJ (and Muay Thai) is so favorably stereotyped in the world MMA as some be-all-end-all necessity to succeed on the ground. Albeit there are countless there are countless ground wizards who accredit BJJ, however in the meanwhile people seem to neglect other grappling arts such as judo, sambo, jiujitsu and in Ken's case, catch wrestling, which other popular fighters such as Kazushi Sakuraba and Josh Barnett use exclusively. Being a fighter with a catch background, Shamrock has managed to submit 23 out of the 27 opponents he's beaten, yet people still manage to ignore this fact and see Ken incompetent as a grappling coach. The truth is also that with limited time in a house, I would much rather eat right and gain strength than try and revamp my entire ground game withing a few weeks.

Thirdly, people seem to criticize Ken's training methods (which where barely even shown anyways), and are quick to say that they are "oldschool", and not adapted for today's fighter. Now this does have some bearing, as Ken was a coach in the earlier days of the UFC. His stable known as the Lion's Den is still to this day one of the most successful camps the UFC has ever seen. Aside from Ken winning and defending the first ever belt in the UFC, his adopted brother Frank went on to win and defend (often) the first Middleweight title, Jerry Bohlander and Guy Mezger also went on to win the first Middleweight tournaments at UFC 12 and 13, and Mikey Burnett was robbed in the first ever fight for the Lightweight title against Pat Militech. Needless to say the Lion's Den where good, but the common "oldschool" accusation still holds... wait a second, let's take a look at this year's IFL team, the Reno Lions. The Lion's just narrowly missed a playoff spot this year, due to 3 controversial split decision losses. So after seeing his team in action, and barely losing a playoff spot, you can chose to believe what you saw (barely) on the show if you are still not a believer...

Fourthly and finally, it seems unjust to me that he was portrayed in such a manner that I've put together the results and records of season one and five in comparison to TUF 3... odd how BJ Penn and Randy Couture get no heat for their less than stellar performances as coaches...

Season 3:

Team Ken Shamrock: 3-10
LHW:Jesse Forbes (0-2), Kristian Rothaermel (0-1), Tait Fletcher (0-1), Mike Nickels (0-1)
MW: Kalib Starnes (1-1), Solomon Hutcherson (0-1), Ed Herman (2-1), Ross Pointon (0-2)

*Also important to note that one of team Shamrock's members, Ed Herman, was also awarded a contract for his performance on the finale.

Team Tito Ortiz: 9-4
LHW: Michael Bisping (3-0), Noah Inhofer (0-0), Josh Haynes (2-1), Matt Hamill (1-0)
MW: Mike Stine (0-1), Kendall Grove (3-0), Rory Singer (0-1), Danny Abbadi (0-1)


Season 1:

Team Randy Couture: 2-6
LHW: Stephan Bonnar (2-1), Mike Swick (0-1), Lodune Sincaide (0-1), Jason Thacker (0-0)
MW: Nate Quarry (0-0), Chris Leben (0-2), Alex Karalexis (0-1), Chris Sanford

* Also important to note that 2 of Randy's fighters called it quits on the first episode, 2 fighters from Chuck's team had to be added to Randy's during the season to even ou the teams, and one of his two wins was a contraversial split decision between Bonnar and Southworth.

Team Chuck Liddell: 10-6
LHW: Bobby Southworth (1-1), Sam Hoger (0.1), Forrest Griffin (3-0), Alex Shonauer (0-1)
MW: Diego Sanchez (4-0), Josh Koscheck (1-1), Kenny Florian (1-1), Josh Rafferty (0-1)


Season 3:

Team BJ Penn: 5-8
Gray Maynard (2-1), Matt Wiman (1-1), Gabe Ruediger (0-0), Joe Lauzon (2-1), Rob Emerson (0-2), Andy Wang (0-1), Allen Berube (0-1), Noah Thomas (0-1)

Team Jens Pulver: 8-7
Corey Hill (1-1), Nathan Diaz (3-0), Brandon Melendez (1-1), Marlon Sims (0-1), Manvel Gambaryan (2-1), Cole Miller (1-1), Brian Geraghty (0-1), Wayne Weems (0-1)

* Also important to note that both of the fighters in this finale where from team Pulver

Last edited 6/29/07 4:12PM server time by richieb19
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2 total post edits

Post #1   6/28/07 4:39:33PM   

Rush

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Good research richie. I really enjoyed the Shamrock interview yourecently posted as well.

I do want to add that the records in TUF are pretty insignificant as some fighters seem to come in with more initial talent than others. A poor record could also be seen as bad picks rather than bad coaching.

Also, don't forget TraTelligman on your list of Lions Den fighters. He may not have had great success in the UFC, but he did well for a guy missing a pectoral muscle and the fact he lost to champion fighters.


While I lost a lot of respect for Shamrock due to his 'showing' in TUF, I am fully aware of TV edititing and am almost certain Tito is not the saint TUF made him out to be.

I also want to add that 8 of Ken's 12 losses have come at the hands of guys that have either been UFC champions and/or Pride Champions.

Last edited 6/28/07 5:46PM server time by Rush
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Post #2   6/28/07 5:10:42PM   

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Posted by Rush

Also, don't forget TraTelligman on your list of Lions Den fighters. He may not have had great success in the UFC, but he did we for a guy missing a pectoral muscle and the fact he lost to champion fighters.


There are alot of fighters I left out along with Telligman, like Vernon White and Pete Williams (how does that foot taste Coleman?). I just wanted to keep it simple and straight to the point...

Post #3   6/28/07 5:13:20PM   

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I think the sport has passed Ken by. His Lion's den students are no longer at the tope of the food chain and haven't been for some time. On the other hand plenty of punishment athletics members have become quite competitive in the octagon as of late. Many of PA's members have left PA mainly due to Tito's crunched schedule but his natural ability to coach was undeniable. I don't think anyone saw Tito as a saint but more as a guy that can do wonders as a coach. I really haven't seen that many people call Ken a bad coach but I think when you compare the two, from the perspective of the show it looked as though Tito was better at it. It showed in his fighters not only how they performed but how they felt about learning from Tito. What does it say when that many guys want to go train with him after the show ends and yet I bet none of Ken's team went to go train in the Lion's den.

Now if you want to compare the two in a war of personalities you might have be able to come up with a valid argument, that Tito might trully be a prick, but I see Tito as a smart businessman that hypes fights like no other. How many people on this web site say to themselves, I can't wait to see Tito get his ass kicked. SoOOOO many. And because of that they will pay for every PPV event he shows in, hell even once he is no longer with the UFC I'm sure Tito haters will tune in at elite xc or some other organization to see him lose there too. The reality is, he gets people to pay bucks and his personality-- the public one we see-- is probably not what he is really like outside of the UFC.

Sorry if I derailed there.

Post #4   6/28/07 5:25:14PM   

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First, Excellent well thought out post. I don't necessarily agree with it all , but I do agree with a lot. SO point by point.
1. The editing. I totally agree. That doesn't mean that Shamrock was a great coach, but without seeing the raw footage it's definitely open to debate IMO. It would have been in the UFC's best interest to make Tito look good , and Shamrock look bad.
2.The assistant coaches. This one I disagree with you. You don't have to be a submission grappling expert to compete in MMA, but having at the very least good sub defense is definitely vital IMO. His answer about not having a BJJ coach was something to the extent of " I don't go for that Ju-jitsu stuff, I like to brawl and do leglocks" I think this is the reason he takes a lot of flack. Everyone should have good submissions,or at the very least good sub defense IMO. Not giving these guys an instructor for it was a bad idea to me. Especially considering the fact that he had some guys like Ross, Solomon, Jesse, and Christian who definitely needed work in that area. It's great he can teach leglocks and their defense, but I think they could have benefited from a more complete submission grappling coach of some sort. Lutter is the only guy I can think of to have been Lion's den affiliated who has good sub skills, and he says he learned them from Carlos Machado . I believe Ken knows enough about strength and nutrition by now to cover that part himself. I was a personal trainer for 4 years and I certainly do , so I doubt an athlete of ken's experience and skill doesn't know enough to teach it. I think he was just trying to show his loyalty to a long time friend and colleague.
3.Ken was a great trainer back in the day, and I believe he was ahead of most in his time. On the show I don't think having the guys watch old school UFC fight's helped much, and missing a day of training didn't help his appearance either . It's quite possible he learned his lesson there and has adapted his training techniques. However, part of this could be editing, and it's my belief that he picked a bad team as well. Add the fact that his fighter's didn't seem to want to listen to him, and that doesn't help. Of course they may have not respected his training techniques, or just been bratty. Since I don't know for sure either way, I'll call this one a push. So while his IFL team is doing well, that could just mean he has adapted, and has guys who want to be trained by him. Or it could mean you were right . No way to tell.
4. As for how his team did, I believe I addressed that he picked a bad team. I believe Randy and BJ did as well. These guys can definitely improve on the show. However, I think the guys that came their the most polished usually won anyway. A raw guy like Koshcheck or Hill gets more out of being on the show IMO. One more little tidbit I still think Herman won that fight. I would have been happy with a draw, but I think his attitude makes people biased towards him. Thanks

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Post #5   6/28/07 5:31:46PM   

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the golf swing day was too much for me!!
it is not like play poll at the house after the training, even the fighter were smiling!!



no disrespect...

Post #6   6/28/07 5:35:42PM   

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I can't agree with you in the submission area HS. As a life-long Shammy fan, I know first hand that his groundgame is much more complete than some would be lead to believe... I do agree that his own comment about being a "brawler and a leglock guy" hurt his outlook, however it was nothing more than a quick recap of his strengths and how he likes to fight. Feel free to watch any of his fights, as I've uploaded them all on veoh.com, you'll notice that he favors legs, but isn't shy to go for an arm or choke at any time.

Post #7   6/28/07 5:39:44PM   

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Posted by richieb19

I can't agree with you in the submission area HS. As a life-long Shammy fan, I know first hand that his groundgame is much more complete than some would be lead to believe... I do agree that his own comment about being a "brawler and a leglock guy" hurt his outlook, however it was nothing more than a quick recap of his strengths and how he likes to fight. Feel free to watch any of his fights, as I've uploaded them all on veoh.com, you'll notice that he favors legs, but isn't shy to go for an arm or choke at any time.



Oh I know he has great leg locks, and I think I've seen most of his fights, I don't remember him going for many arms, but I'll just defer to your Shammy Knowledge. I still don't think he would be able to hold his own in a sub grappling tournament, but I also admit I don't know for sure unless he does one sometime soon. No matter what , he's still a legend, I'm sure we agree on that.

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“Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie ,cheat ,or steal.for selfish gain. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil. Never back away from an enemy. Either fight or surrender. It is not enough to say I will not be evil. Evil must be fought wherever it is found.”
The Iron Code

Post #8   6/28/07 5:46:56PM   

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Posted by hippysmacker


Posted by richieb19

I can't agree with you in the submission area HS. As a life-long Shammy fan, I know first hand that his groundgame is much more complete than some would be lead to believe... I do agree that his own comment about being a "brawler and a leglock guy" hurt his outlook, however it was nothing more than a quick recap of his strengths and how he likes to fight. Feel free to watch any of his fights, as I've uploaded them all on veoh.com, you'll notice that he favors legs, but isn't shy to go for an arm or choke at any time.



Oh I know he has great leg locks, and I think I've seen most of his fights, I don't remember him going for many arms, but I'll just defer to your Shammy Knowledge. I still don't think he would be able to hold his own in a sub grappling tournament, but I also admit I don't know for sure unless he does one sometime soon. No matter what , he's still a legend, I'm sure we agree on that.

It depends on the rules of the grappling tournament... ADCC is heavily favorable to BJJ guys, but you won't see any of them lasting a minute in Olympic judo. Catch Wrestlers have a different style, and are awarded for "catches" (sub attempts), so it's a whole different game. I think Sakuraba proved that BJJ isn't always the best even more so than Shamrock, yet somehow people think that Saku's grappling style is all his own?

Post #9   6/28/07 5:50:42PM   

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I am not a grappling expert so I'll just take your word for it. Wrestling. a little BJJ I've got. Catch wrestling and Judo I got nuthin.

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Post #10   6/28/07 5:58:20PM   

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Good research - I dont doubt for a second that TUF is not fairly edited, after all Dana has the say on what is and isnt shown...


But as for Ken, he was once a great fighter, but no more, and I dont have a lot of respect for him after his disgraceful performance at the Pride 2000 GP, being so angry at the judges for asking for another round to pick a winner between Mezger and Sakuraba, being so angry infact that he sent Mezger back to the locker rooms rather than have him fight in what he saw as an unjust second round...

Post #11   6/28/07 6:38:42PM   

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Posted by Mastodon2

Good research - I dont doubt for a second that TUF is not fairly edited, after all Dana has the say on what is and isnt shown...


But as for Ken, he was once a great fighter, but no more, and I dont have a lot of respect for him after his disgraceful performance at the Pride 2000 GP, being so angry at the judges for asking for another round to pick a winner between Mezger and Sakuraba, being so angry infact that he sent Mezger back to the locker rooms rather than have him fight in what he saw as an unjust second round...

What you might not have known is that Mezger was actually ill, and that the fight was signed for two rounds and only two rounds. By sticking up for Mezger and stopping the fight he was not only looking out for the well being of his fighter, but also making a stand against Pride and their obvious favoritism towards Sakuraba.

Post #12   6/28/07 6:58:06PM   

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Posted by hippysmacker
4. As for how his team did, I believe I addressed that he picked a bad team. I believe Randy and BJ did as well. These guys can definitely improve on the show. However, I think the guys that came their the most polished usually won anyway. A raw guy like Koshcheck or Hill gets more out of being on the show IMO. One more little tidbit I still think Herman won that fight. I would have been happy with a draw, but I think his attitude makes people biased towards him. Thanks



This is spot on. I remember Ken saying he picked his fighters as if he was picking someone he knew would beat Tito's pick before him, which is kind of an ass backwards way of doing things. Also had Herman winning, and I could see their roles totally reversed right now if Herman won. I'm certain Jason would have tapped Kendall and Herman could have easily won against Price and Belcher.

The TUF 3 picking order:

Tito: Matt Hamil
Ken: Jesse Forbes

Matt is the better wrestler and has won a match against Forbes since the show.

Tito: Rory Singer
Ken: Kalib Starnes

Ken had this one right, if this fight ever took place I got Kalib taking it.

Tito: Michael Bisping
Ken: Kristian Rotharmel

This match was actually closer than it should have been with the kind of hype Bisping had, but still I see the same outcome every time.

Tito: Kendall Groves
Ken: Solomon Hutcherson

Solomon gasses too easy and is easily rocked. Kendall would have won.

Tito: Noah Inhafer
Ken: Mike Nickels

Not sure who is better on the ground but Noah, the guy who was learning stand up with an basket ball, has the much better advantage standing.

Tito: Mike Stine
Ken: Ed Herman

Ken gets that one. Herman would have killed Stine... he did go way too low.

Tito: Josh Haynes
Ken: Ross Pointon

Even though Ken picked two Middle Weights in a row I'm guessing he was pulling for Ross against Danny, which I guess I'll give the nod to Ross.

Tito: Danny Abaddi
Ken: Tait Fletcher

I actually thought Tait won his match against Josh but they say Josh won so chalk up another win for Tito.

Ken was beaten on the first day, the rest of the show was just hilighting the downfall of losing. And the UFC is more than willing to do that. Good topic start richie... too many people hold grudges on Ken for what happen on TUF, when a lot of his problems he couldn't help.

Post #13   6/28/07 9:42:21PM   

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Posted by richieb19

OK, I've been hearing bad reviews on Ken Shamrock's TUF 3 coaching performance for long enough, so I thought I'd take the time to try and lay everything out for everyone so they clearly see whats going on... First of all, I'll touch the editing claim, the one which no one seems (or wants) to believe. Ken Shamrock has openly said numerous on numerous occasions that the show was edited to make him look bad, and to make Tito look good. Which actually makes perfect sence considering that at the time Tito was aiming for another shot at the title, and Shamrock was/is in the twilight of his career. Now not only has it been edited against him, Ken says that Rich Franklin and Matt Hughes have also complained about being unjustly edited on the show. Now you can chose to believe what you want, but the fact remains that the serie shows very limited amounts of actual training and coaching footage, and above all else it is a reality show, which makes editing a major factor in bringing in audiences.

Secondly, I'd like to touch on the assistant coaches brought in. Now don't get me wrong here, I give full credit for Tito having brought in Saul Soliz and Dean Lister as his assistant coaches, but for some odd reason people love to nitpick on Ken's choices. Ken Shamrock brought in Roman Pollock as a boxing coach, and Dan Freeman as a strength and nutrition coach. Now the most popular argument I often read is that Ken brought in a bodybuilder instead of a BJJ coach. I don't understand why the average MMA fan hates bodybuilders (and pro-wrestlers), but it seems to be all that people could say, all the while ignoring the fact that strength and nutrition are of the utmost importance when competing in a tournament and being forced to live in a house with other competitors. Dan Freeman has actually been with Ken his entire career, and Ken has almost always been able to out-power his opponents and fight long periods of time... coincidence? Now back to the whole BJJ debacle, I can't even begin to understand why BJJ (and Muay Thai) is so favorably stereotyped in the world MMA as some be-all-end-all necessity to succeed on the ground. Albeit there are countless there are countless ground wizards who accredit BJJ, however in the meanwhile people seem to neglect other grappling arts such as judo, sambo, jiujitsu and in Ken's case, catch wrestling, which other popular fighters such as Kazushi Sakuraba and Josh Barnett use exclusively. Being a fighter with a catch background, Shamrock has managed to submit 23 out of the 27 opponents he's beaten, yet people still manage to ignore this fact and see Ken incompetent as a grappling coach. The truth is also that with limited time in a house, I would much rather eat right and gain strength than try and revamp my entire ground game withing a few weeks.

Thirdly, people seem to criticize Ken's training methods (which where barely even shown anyways), and are quick to say that they are "oldschool", and not adapted for today's fighter. Now this does have some bearing, as Ken was a coach in the earlier days of the UFC. His stable known as the Lion's Den is still to this day one of the most successful camps the UFC has ever seen. Aside from Ken winning and defending the first ever belt in the UFC, his adopted brother Frank went on to win and defend (often) the first Middleweight title, Jerry Bohlander and Guy Mezger also went on to win the first Middleweight tournaments at UFC 12 and 13, and Mikey Burnett was robbed in the first ever fight for the Lightweight title against Pat Militech. Needless to say the Lion's Den where good, but the common "oldschool" accusation still holds... wait a second, let's take a look at this year's IFL team, the Reno Lions. The Lion's just narrowly missed a playoff spot this year, due to 3 controversial split decision losses. So after seeing his team in action, and barely losing a playoff spot, you can chose to believe what you saw (barely) on the show if you are still not a believer...

Fourthly and finally, it seems unjust to me that he was portrayed in such a manner that I've put together the results and records of season one and five in comparison to TUF 3... odd how BJ Penn and Randy Couture get no heat for their less than stellar performances as coaches...

Season 3:

Team Ken Shamrock: 3-10
LHW:Jesse Forbes (0-2), Kristian Rothaermel (0-1), Tait Fletcher (0-1), Mike Nickels (0-1)
MW: Kalib Starnes (1-1), Solomon Hutcherson (0-1), Ed Herman (2-1), Ross Pointon (0-2)

*Also important to note that one of team Shamrock's members, Ed Herman, was also awarded a contract for his performance on the finale.

Team Tito Ortiz: 9-4
LHW: Michael Bisping (3-0), Noah Inhofer (0-0), Josh Haynes (2-1), Matt Hamill (1-0)
MW: Mike Stine (0-1), Kendall Grove (3-0), Rory Singer (0-1), Danny Abbadi (0-1)


Season 1:

Team Randy Couture: 10-6
LHW: Stephan Bonnar (2-1), Mike Swick (0-1), Lodune Sincaide (0-1), Jason Thacker (0-0)
MW: Nate Quarry (0-0), Chris Leben (0-2), Alex Karalexis (0-1), Chris Sanford

* Also important to note that 2 of Randy's fighters called it quits on the first episode, 2 fighters from Chuck's team had to be added to Randy's during the season to even ou the teams, and one of his two wins was a contraversial split decision between Bonnar and Southworth.

Team Chuck Liddell: 10-6
LHW: Bobby Southworth (1-1), Sam Hoger (0.1), Forrest Griffin (3-0), Alex Shonauer (0-1)
MW: Diego Sanchez (4-0), Josh Koscheck (1-1), Kenny Florian (1-1), Josh Rafferty (0-1)


Season 3:

Team BJ Penn: 5-8
Gray Maynard (2-1), Matt Wiman (1-1), Gabe Ruediger (0-0), Joe Lauzon (2-1), Rob Emerson (0-2), Andy Wang (0-1), Allen Berube (0-1), Noah Thomas (0-1)

Team Jens Pulver: 8-7
Corey Hill (1-1), Nathan Diaz (3-0), Brandon Melendez (1-1), Marlon Sims (0-1), Manvel Gambaryan (2-1), Cole Miller (1-1), Brian Geraghty (0-1), Wayne Weems (0-1)

* Also important to note that both of the fighters in this finale where from team Pulver





Well first off I would like to say that you have waaaayyy too much time on your hands, but you make alot of valid points. That's "Reality" TV for you. I would like to disagree with your Ken Shamrock statement about him submitting most of his opponents, this maybe true but those were in the old days when Shamrock's techniques were affective against less diverse fighters. Secondly you kind of contradict yourself by claiming BJ and Randy didn't take heat for having less the stellar performances on TUF, how do we really know how they did as coaches considering all of the editing done to make a show more interesting or dramatic to viewers.

Post #14   6/28/07 9:43:29PM   

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I think all of your points are valid. The only one I'd add to it is something Ken himself has said about being on the TUF show. Besides the editing bug giving him a bad light, a coach can only teach a fighter so much. I'm sure some of the fighters on Ken's team could've have given him a little more effort and that could've attributed to some of the poor performances.

I don't find Ken to be a terrible villain as the show made him out to be and think he is a good ambassador of MMA.

Post #15   6/28/07 10:04:00PM   
 
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