Pick'em Leagues: THE BIG SHOW CASUAL BEST OF THE REST Single Event PvP: FANTASY POOLS Betting Leagues: THE BIG SHOW BEST OF THE REST

Mizugaki vs Cariaso

Print  
Was it a good decision?
Yes 4 13%
No, Mizugaki should have won 26 87%
  Page 1 of 2     1     2  
Posted By Message

bjj1605

Heavyweight Champ

bjj1605 Avatar
7
 
 
 
 


 
 
Posts:3,222
Career:1,573-914
Joined:Oct 2007
Camp: Dark Horse
Chips:
681
So for all of you who are familiar with me on this thread, you know that I'm a big critic of the current UFC judging system.

This fight was exactly how I would like fights to be scored from now on.

Mizugaki got takedowns and top position put he was actually LOSING the grappling exchanges. He also got worked on the feet. Take downs are usually WAYYYYYYYYYYY over scored, so this was really exciting for me.

I'm not sure if it was just because it was in Japan or if the judges are actually getting better.

What do you guys think? I'm adding a poll but I'd appreciate some comments too.

I'm sure that plenty of people who are used to shitty UFC judging thought Mizugaki won....but can you defend that position?

Edit: Just so we're clear, I picked Mizugaki to win and was rooting for him as well. In no way was I "hoping" that Cariaso would win the fight. He just did. When it was over I was thinking "Cariaso is about to get robbed because these types of decisions always go to the guy on top. At least I picked Mizugaki."

I was pleasantly surprised when they got it right.

Last edited 2/26/12 5:55PM server time by bjj1605
Edit note/reason: n/a

Post #1   2/26/12 5:42:11PM   

Twenty20Dollars

Heavyweight Champ

5




 
 
 


 
 
Posts:12,772
Career:1,572-1,001
Joined:Jun 2007
Chips:
1,196
People were saying Frankie got takedowns and should have won.

Last edited 2/26/12 5:45PM server time by twenty20dollars
Edit note/reason: n/a

Post #2   2/26/12 5:45:09PM   

bjj1605

Heavyweight Champ

bjj1605 Avatar
7
 
 
 
 


 
 
Posts:3,222
Career:1,573-914
Joined:Oct 2007
Camp: Dark Horse
Chips:
681

Posted by Twenty20Dollars

People were saying Frankie got takedowns and should have won.



I disagree with that as well.

I think people need to change their thinking about takedowns.

A takedown is worth very little on its own (unless its a slam and it causes damage.) It should be viewed as a path to do something else.

The GOAL behind a takedown should be:

1) Passing to a dominant position.
2) Landing meaningful strikes.
3) Attempting a submission.

If none of those three things happens after a takedown, the takedown its self is worth almost nothing.

Post #3   2/26/12 5:49:37PM   

Aether

Heavyweight Champ

Aether Avatar
4



 
 
 


 
 
Posts:5,068
Career:946-505
Joined:Apr 2007
Chips:
1,039
I would have to watch this again. At the time I definitely thought Mizugaki won the fight, but I also thought the rounds were very close. I think my impression was that Cariaso won the striking, but by a narrow enough margin that Mizugaki's top control was enough to sway the fight in his favour.

I'm pretty sure I don't agree that Cariaso was winning the grappling. If I recall correctly he didn't come very close to any sub attempts, and got one sweep in the second round from which Mizugaki immediately stood up. To me the question is whether the top control was enough to overcome the difference in striking, and I would have to re-watch to really say with confidence.

Post #4   2/26/12 5:55:36PM   

bjj1605

Heavyweight Champ

bjj1605 Avatar
7
 
 
 
 


 
 
Posts:3,222
Career:1,573-914
Joined:Oct 2007
Camp: Dark Horse
Chips:
681

Posted by Aether

Mizugaki's top control was enough to sway the fight in his favour.




I take issue with the term "top control."

Its true that you can control a guy from the top. But that phrase makes it sound like the words are synonymous.

Just because a guy on top doesn't mean he's in control.

You can control a guy from guard or even half guard.

Post #5   2/26/12 5:59:16PM   

Aether

Heavyweight Champ

Aether Avatar
4



 
 
 


 
 
Posts:5,068
Career:946-505
Joined:Apr 2007
Chips:
1,039
It's incredibly rare that the guy on the bottom is in control. Unless he's constantly attacking with subs, he's on his back because the other fighter put him there, not because he wants to be, and even if you're able to neutralize the other guy, you're still in a defensive position, not an offensive one. It's like defending a sub or checking a kick. You might make his offense worth less, but it doesn't mean you're in control of what's happening, you're still the one defending.

Again, for this fight specifically I would have to re-watch to argue one scoring or the other, but as far as controlling someone from the bottom goes in a general sense, unless you're mounting some offense, you're not in control IMO. Just holding onto someone who took you down or staying in guard doesn't equate to control as far as I'm concerned. Even if you neutralize the guy on top of you, you're still in the worse position, you're carrying his weight, gravity is on his side, and you're there because of his offense.

Post #6   2/26/12 6:14:38PM   

tepid55

MMA Sensei

tepid55 Avatar
9
 
 
 
 


 
 
Posts:1,515
Career:3,006-1,645
Joined:Feb 2007
Camp: Pride FC Forever
Chips:
121
I thought Mizugaki clearly won 2 of the 3 rounds.

Post #7   2/26/12 6:27:43PM   

bjj1605

Heavyweight Champ

bjj1605 Avatar
7
 
 
 
 


 
 
Posts:3,222
Career:1,573-914
Joined:Oct 2007
Camp: Dark Horse
Chips:
681

Posted by Aether

It's incredibly rare that the guy on the bottom is in control. Unless he's constantly attacking with subs, he's on his back because the other fighter put him there, not because he wants to be, and even if you're able to neutralize the other guy, you're still in a defensive position, not an offensive one. It's like defending a sub or checking a kick. You might make his offense worth less, but it doesn't mean you're in control of what's happening, you're still the one defending.

Again, for this fight specifically I would have to re-watch to argue one scoring or the other, but as far as controlling someone from the bottom goes in a general sense, unless you're mounting some offense, you're not in control IMO. Just holding onto someone who took you down or staying in guard doesn't equate to control as far as I'm concerned. Even if you neutralize the guy on top of you, you're still in the worse position, you're carrying his weight, gravity is on his side, and you're there because of his offense.



Go to your nearest BJJ gym and ask to roll with the guy with the best guard. Spend the whole rolling session in his guard and then tell me if you feel like you're in control.

I'm not trying to be a dick. I respect your opinion, but I vehemently disagree with it.

First of all, takedown aren't the only way to end up in guard. "Pulling guard" is very common in grappling competitions. In that case, the guy most certainly DOES want to be on his back. The only reason we don't see more guard pulling in MMA is because judges give decisions to the fighter on top. If you fix the judging I guarantee you guard pulling would make a resurgence.

Second, why does the guy on bottom have to be attacking to be in control? You don't apply the same standard to the guy on top. "Gravity is on his side", "You're carrying his weight." That's really just not true. I'm not sure if you do jiu jitsu or another grappling art, but being in guard is not at all an uncomfortable position. Side control, mount, back mount, north south, spraw postion....they all suck when you're on the bottom.

Guard is nothing like that. In guard you have your legs wrapped around the guy and he's sitting on his heels. He's actually carrying his own weight and none of it is really pressing down on you. More important, the guy on the bottom actual had more literal control (in the sense that he can dictate the way the other guy moves his body.) On top you have two options: punch or try to escape. The top guy can't really do anything to stop the bottom guy's movements. The guy on bottom can use his legs, wrist control, rubber guard, over under control, ect. to prevent the guy on top from doing what he wants. This is literally CONTROL.

In BJJ we usually say guard is a "NEUTRAL" position. In reality the guy on bottom often has the advantage. The only reason it's "NEUTRAL" rather than "DOMINANT" is because the guy on top can more easily move to a better position while the guy on bottom has to sweep in order to achieve a dominant position.

I just can't really understand your classification. The guy on top is "In Control" whether or not he does anything. The guy on bottom isn't "in control" unless he's attacking. You're using two different standards. Control is a separate scoring criteria from "Aggression" or "Effective Grappling" which is what I think you're talking about.

Post #8   2/26/12 6:39:42PM   

Aether

Heavyweight Champ

Aether Avatar
4



 
 
 


 
 
Posts:5,068
Career:946-505
Joined:Apr 2007
Chips:
1,039
It's not BJJ though, it's MMA. You can throw punches, which COMPLETELY changes the context of everything you just said. IMO In BJJ it's a neutral position, in MMA it isn't, because the guy on top can punch you MUCH harder, which is exactly what Mizugaki was doing.

Yes you can pull guard, and if you pull guard it's most likely because you're going to start attacking from the bottom, which is exactly the way I said you can exhibit control from the bottom. As far as not carrying the guy's weight, I'm not sure how you can argue this. If the guy is laying on top of you with his head in your chest, any time you want to move, you have to deal with the weight of his body pressing down on you, having your legs wrapped around him might make it a little less difficult than it is in side control, but it doesn't completely negate it, if he postures up onto his legs you may not be carrying his weight, but then he has plenty of space to punch you. For all of these reasons, in the context of MMA, guard is not a neutral position IMO.

I think you're looking at these positions from a straight BJJ perspective, and not considering how dramatically adding striking in changes the dynamic of these positions.

Post #9   2/26/12 7:05:03PM   

bjj1605

Heavyweight Champ

bjj1605 Avatar
7
 
 
 
 


 
 
Posts:3,222
Career:1,573-914
Joined:Oct 2007
Camp: Dark Horse
Chips:
681

Posted by Aether

It's not BJJ though, it's MMA. You can throw punches, which COMPLETELY changes the context of everything you just said. IMO In BJJ it's a neutral position, in MMA it isn't, because the guy on top can punch you MUCH harder, which is exactly what Mizugaki was doing.

Yes you can pull guard, and if you pull guard it's most likely because you're going to start attacking from the bottom, which is exactly the way I said you can exhibit control from the bottom. As far as not carrying the guy's weight, I'm not sure how you can argue this. If the guy is laying on top of you with his head in your chest, any time you want to move, you have to deal with the weight of his body pressing down on you, having your legs wrapped around him might make it a little less difficult than it is in side control, but it doesn't completely negate it, if he postures up onto his legs you may not be carrying his weight, but then he has plenty of space to punch you. For all of these reasons, in the context of MMA, guard is not a neutral position IMO.

I think you're looking at these positions from a straight BJJ perspective, and not considering how dramatically adding striking in changes the dynamic of these positions.



I'll admit, I've never had a full contact MMA fight (although I've done MMA sparring with guys like Pat Curran). But I still know it makes a big difference when the guy can punch you.

But that is a red herring in this argument.

I wasn't talking about BJJ vs MMA. I was talking specifically about MMA.

No where in my comments will you find me saying "A guy on his back who is getting punched in the face is winning the fight."


That would be a dumb argument.

I'm talking about a guy on his back who's not taking significant damage and is either throwing his own strikes or dictating the grappling.

Edit: I can agree with you that guard isn't a neutral position in MMA. But it's still NEAR neutral. So either guy can win depending on what he's doing. IMO Cariaso won because he was at least "not losing" on the ground and because he was winning on the feet.

Last edited 2/26/12 7:17PM server time by bjj1605
Edit note/reason: n/a

Post #10   2/26/12 7:14:55PM   

Twenty20Dollars

Heavyweight Champ

5




 
 
 


 
 
Posts:12,772
Career:1,572-1,001
Joined:Jun 2007
Chips:
1,196
I think it comes down to how the judges interpret the rules.

Post #11   2/26/12 7:23:23PM   

Aether

Heavyweight Champ

Aether Avatar
4



 
 
 


 
 
Posts:5,068
Career:946-505
Joined:Apr 2007
Chips:
1,039
Ok, I rewatched this fight just now and I will stand by Mizugaki winning, this is what I saw:

Round 1 - on the feet it's nearly dead even, Mizugaki slips punches and counters 3 or 4 times in the first minute, lands a leg kick or two, for the second minute Cariaso lands a few right hands, then Mizugaki gets a TD with about 2:45 left in the round Cariaso goes for an omoplata which Mizugaki escapes fairly easily without getting swept. For the next 2 minutes Mizugaki alternates between pushing his weight into Cariaso's chest, and posturing up for GnP Cariaso throws some short elbows, but because he has no space to create momentum, they are worth very little compared to Mizugaki's punches from the top.

10-9 Mizugaki

Round 2 - Mizugaki pushes forward with a few strikes, lands only one and ties up against the cage while eating a shot in return while closing the distance, Cariaso throws a knee or two and Mizugaki throws a couple of punches, they separate and reset, for the next minute both fighters are missing almost all of their strikes, Cariaso throws a high kick, which lands under Mizugaki's arm while Mizugaki lands a counter hook. Again at about 2:45 they tie up, Cariaso lands 3-4 knees to Mizugaki's 1 and Mizugaki gets the takedown a few seconds later. Mizugaki is throwing some arm punches while putting his weight on Cariaso to try to keep him against the cage, Cariaso is again throwing short elbows, but Mizugaki is giving him no space to develop power, Mizugaki postures up and throws some significant GnP, then plants his head back into Cariaso's chest, at which point Cariaso starts working a sweep. He sweeps Mizugaki but Mizugaki stands back up before Cariaso can get on top, they reset, tie up and the round ends. Again the standup is almost dead even, but Mizugaki's punches from the top are worth more than Cariaso's short elbows from the bottom IMO.

10-9 Mizugaki

Round 3 - Cariaso throws a glancing headkick, Mizugaki pushes forward and ties up against the cage, Cariaso is lands 5-6 knees and Mizugaki lands only 2-3, Cariaso reverses Mizugaki and tries for a TD of his own, when he is unsuccessful, he breaks and lands a nice combination to Mizugaki's head, and the fighters reset. This time Cariaso pushes forward landing a left and tying up against the cage, Mizugaki reverses, Cariaso lands 3-4 good knees and a good elbow to the head. Cariaso reverses Mizugaki against the cage and throws more knees. Again Cariaso breaks with a good combination to Mizugaki's head. Cariaso lands another glancing headkick at 2:15 and falls over, Mizugaki scrambles on top. This time Mizugaki is not posturing up at all, he passes to half guard but Cariaso immediately regains full guard, only 3-4 punches from Mizugaki from the top during this period, and Cariaso scrambles back to his feet both fighters connect and break, Cariaso charges at Mizugaki and the round ends. Cariaso got the better of the standup by a significant margin in this round, and Mizugaki did not GnP like he did in the first 2 rounds when he was on top.

10-9 Cariaso

I watched it 2-3 times, including once at 50% speed, and I think Mizugaki having top control with decent GnP for 3 minutes in both of the first 2 rounds won him the fight. Cariaso managed to keep the fight standing for about 3 minutes in the final round, and outstruck him by more than 2-3 shots, so Mizugaki's ground control with no GnP was not enough to give him this round

29-28 Mizugaki IMO.

Post #12   2/26/12 7:49:30PM   

Aether

Heavyweight Champ

Aether Avatar
4



 
 
 


 
 
Posts:5,068
Career:946-505
Joined:Apr 2007
Chips:
1,039

Posted by bjj1605


Posted by Aether

It's not BJJ though, it's MMA. You can throw punches, which COMPLETELY changes the context of everything you just said. IMO In BJJ it's a neutral position, in MMA it isn't, because the guy on top can punch you MUCH harder, which is exactly what Mizugaki was doing.

Yes you can pull guard, and if you pull guard it's most likely because you're going to start attacking from the bottom, which is exactly the way I said you can exhibit control from the bottom. As far as not carrying the guy's weight, I'm not sure how you can argue this. If the guy is laying on top of you with his head in your chest, any time you want to move, you have to deal with the weight of his body pressing down on you, having your legs wrapped around him might make it a little less difficult than it is in side control, but it doesn't completely negate it, if he postures up onto his legs you may not be carrying his weight, but then he has plenty of space to punch you. For all of these reasons, in the context of MMA, guard is not a neutral position IMO.

I think you're looking at these positions from a straight BJJ perspective, and not considering how dramatically adding striking in changes the dynamic of these positions.



I'll admit, I've never had a full contact MMA fight (although I've done MMA sparring with guys like Pat Curran). But I still know it makes a big difference when the guy can punch you.

But that is a red herring in this argument.

I wasn't talking about BJJ vs MMA. I was talking specifically about MMA.

No where in my comments will you find me saying "A guy on his back who is getting punched in the face is winning the fight."


That would be a dumb argument.

I'm talking about a guy on his back who's not taking significant damage and is either throwing his own strikes or dictating the grappling.

Edit: I can agree with you that guard isn't a neutral position in MMA. But it's still NEAR neutral. So either guy can win depending on what he's doing. IMO Cariaso won because he was at least "not losing" on the ground and because he was winning on the feet.



I will agree with it being near-neutral with only a slight advantage for the guy on top, I think we agree in terms of the value of the position, and we disagree with how effective Mizugaki actually was on the ground in this fight.

Post #13   2/26/12 7:51:36PM   

Budgellism

Randy

Budgellism Avatar
14
 
 
 
 


 
 
Posts:13,931
Career:2,920-1,662
Joined:Apr 2007
Camp: Project Mayhem
Chips:
1,806
14-1 is around what I thought this would be by the end of the day.

_______________________________________

Post #14   2/26/12 9:06:31PM   

Bubbles

Come at me bro

Bubbles Avatar
5




 
 
 


 
 
Posts:9,368
Career:1,120-670
Joined:Oct 2009
Chips:
1,461
make it 17-1

_______________________________________
The best cure for insomnia is a lot of sex. Even if it doesn't end up putting you to sleep, you don't mind so much

Men be careful, female sexual predators are using a date rape drug called a Blowjob to trap men into scams called relationships.

Post #15   2/26/12 10:51:27PM   
 
  Page 1 of 2     1     2