Wrestling credintals Lesnar-Coutre

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sleevey
9/24/08 3:50:08PM
Many people are under the wrong assumption that Couture is a much better wrestler then Lesnar. They think that Couture will use his amazing wrestling to dismantle the bigger, younger, faster and stronger Lesnar.

I wouldn't be be so sure about that. Technique does not always overcome strength. (Many times it does, but not always.) Let's look at Lesnar's and Couture's wrestling credentials and you will see that Couture may not be leaps and bounds above Lesnar. I will agree that Couture has adapted his wrestling to become some of the best wrestling for MMA, which is different then just wrestling, but that doesn't automatically mean he will beat Lesnar because of it.



Lesnar’s Credentials:

High School Record: 33-0
Collegiate Record: 106-5


1998 Junior College National Champion
Big Ten Title (1999-2000)
1999 NCAA Division I Runner-up
Ranked the #1 Heavyweight in the Big Ten (2000)
2000 NCAA Division I Champion


Couture’s Credentials:

High School Record: 1 Time State Champion

3 Time NCAA Division I All-American
2 Time NCAA Division I Runner Up
3 Time Olympic Alternate
1 Time Olympic Trial Finalist



Why was Lesnar never an Olympic Alternate? Because Lesnar even tried out for the Olympic trials. He went immediately to WWE from college because of the money, who can blame him.

Some may say it was doubtful that Lesnar would have made the Olympics, but we will never know. So, to use the argument that Lesnar isn't as good as Couture because he wasn't an on an Olympic level is bull. The level of wrestling between Couture and Lesnar isn't as far as people think.


Want to analyze rest of their skills, look below.

Lesnar

Strengths -

1.) Extremely Strong
2.) Extremely Fast for a HW.
3.) Good Cardio (good enough if Couture pushes him? Undetermined.)
4.) Long reach 81"inches
5.) Heavy for a HW
6.) Great wrestling
7.) Strong striking (not great technique though.)


Weaknesses:

1.) Chin (undetermined).
2.) Submissions (defense and offense).
3.) Cardio (enough to go 5 rounds with Couture pushing him?)
4.) Striking (not the best.)


Couture

Strengths -

1.) Experience
2.) Gameplans
3.) Wrestling
4.) Amazing Cardio
5.) Good GnP
6.) Dirty Boxing
7.) Ok striking


Weaknesses:

1.) Submission (enough to submit Lesnar?)
2.) Light for a HW (225lbs)
3.) Striking (enough to KO/TKO Lesnar?)
4.) Age



Some people say that Couture should strike and back out, trying to wear Lesnar down with boxing. However, with his 81" reach and great takedowns, how long do you think Couture will really be able to keep Lesnar at bay? Lesnar may only need one takedown to finish Couture.


Couture's game plan is normally strike to close distance, clinch, push up against cage, dirty box, and get to the mat, GnP for victory.

Will he be able to do this to a 280lbs Lesnar? It will be hard for him. It's one thing to toss a 252lbs Gonzaga who's an ok wrestler and a 280lbs Lesnar who was a collegiate wrestling champion.

If Couture gets Lesnar up against the cage to dirty box, will he be able to impose his will or will Lesnar take him down instead.

If Couture gets Lesnar down, can he keep him down? If Lesnar ends up on top, can Couture reverse him or submit him?


Couture should look for legtrips, his submission game and to make Lesnar gas by wearing him out. I don't think Randy can take Lesnar down in the clinch, so legtrips are good, and submissions, being Lesnar's biggest weakness are what Couture should focus on, especially since he's not known for his submissions.

Lesnar with almost a 60lbs weight advantage has considerable strength, size and speed that maybe hard for Couture to handle and maybe enough to negate Couture's skills. Couture has also been KO'd/TKO'd before. Lesnar may even KO/TKO Couture, as crazy it may sound.

Lesnar's gameplan should be to play it safe, even if it's boring, and use the exact same gameplan as he did against Herring. He will have time to be exciting once he's the UFC HW Champion. The gameplan should be to control Couture and not get caught in a submission or reversal, just play it safe and not go for the finish unless he absolutely knows he has Couture rocked or hurt bad enough.


Lesnar's BJJ:

Lesnar's taking this seriously and bringing in the right guys to help him improve on his weaknesses, which is smart, too many guy's on losses stick with the same camp and same trainers. Lesnar has brought in Rodrigo "Comprido" Medeiros, 7 time BJJ World Champion, to work on his weak submission game and improve his BJJ skills. Like I said above, Lesnar doesn't need "great" BJJ, only decent BJJ defense.

Brock Lesnar Brings In 7-Time World BJJ Champ To Prepare For UFC 87 - FightLine.com

Even though it seems Lesnar only brought Rodrigo in for a short time, it shows he understands how important it is to be well-rounded and he's bringing in the best.


Many people assume that Couture's wrestling is lightyears ahead of Lesnar's, while in fact it is not. Also, Lesnar's tremendous strength and size advantage may negate Couture's higher level of skill.


This is a very intriguing matchup and realistically is probably a bigger PPV Payday at the moment then Fedor vs. Couture. Fedor is relatively uknown to most American fans, while Lesnar is a househould name. I think a Lesnar vs. Couture fight may in fact become the highest grossing UFC PPV to date.


I'm a fan of both Couture and Lesnar.

And I think he will be the UFC HW Champion in 2008.


And no, I don't watch WWE and I don't care if you do, it doesn't make you a worse fan.
Aaronno9
9/24/08 3:54:33PM
Tbh, i havent really noticed anybody saying randys wrestling is better, not on these forums at least. Plus their styles of wrestling are totally differant so they both have areas where they are stronger than the other in terms of technique.
loonytnt
9/24/08 3:54:50PM
yeah that what i was thinkin to i just didnt want to type all that lol

this fight is going be hard for randy, but one thing i learned from this site is if you bet your money on the guy randy is fightin you will lose lol
wiggum
9/24/08 4:31:46PM

Posted by Aaronno9

Tbh, i havent really noticed anybody saying randys wrestling is better, not on these forums at least. Plus their styles of wrestling are totally differant so they both have areas where they are stronger than the other in terms of technique.




agreed, i havent noticed anybody saying its "light years" ahead either, but this is the only forum i hang out on.....and also, to use the excuse that he went to the wwe instead of trying to get on olympic team like couture did means that couture kept wrestling, kept getting better were as lesnar did not...so i dont know what you were trying to get at there.....at the end of the day its greco roman wrestling vs freestyle wrestling......so its not really fair to compare whos wrestling is better, its like comparing judo and ju jitsu...yeah they are similar, but not the same.....in my opionon greco roman wrestling is a far better style of wrestling for mma than freestyle is and factor in the years up on years (damn couture is freakin old!) of experience in greco and then using it to perfection in mma is a big bonus....compared to a a guy that has a better collegiate wrestler, but not all THAT much better and who hasnt really adapted it all that well YET after taking years off away from the that sport is like splitting hairs....bottom line tho is, this isnt wrestling, its mma....there is a ton of more technique that goes into it than just wrestling....also, alot of people always say that couture has had trouble with larger guys, which isnt neccesarily true....5 years ago he fought a former all american wrestler with a black belt in bjj (ricco), and was winning the fight until he made a tactical error and ricco did his job and took advantage....barnett, all american wrestler with a stellar technical catch wrestling game, and randy was winning that until he made a tactical error.....what im getting at is not only was that 5 years of top notch training ago, but brock isnt technical, he doesnt have those skills, and to tell ya the truth i doubt he ever will be on the techncial level of those guys given that he is no spring chicken either........i think too much wrestling/mma math is being done on subject...at the end of the day randy should win with technique as long as he doenst get caught by the powerhouse that is lesnar, which is very possible.......and i cant wait to watch!
sleevey
9/24/08 5:02:59PM

Posted by wiggum


Posted by Aaronno9

Tbh, i havent really noticed anybody saying randys wrestling is better, not on these forums at least. Plus their styles of wrestling are totally differant so they both have areas where they are stronger than the other in terms of technique.




agreed, i havent noticed anybody saying its "light years" ahead either, but this is the only forum i hang out on.....and also, to use the excuse that he went to the wwe instead of trying to get on olympic team like couture did means that couture kept wrestling, kept getting better were as lesnar did not...so i dont know what you were trying to get at there.....at the end of the day its greco roman wrestling vs freestyle wrestling......so its not really fair to compare whos wrestling is better, its like comparing judo and ju jitsu...yeah they are similar, but not the same.....in my opionon greco roman wrestling is a far better style of wrestling for mma than freestyle is and factor in the years up on years (damn couture is freakin old!) of experience in greco and then using it to perfection in mma is a big bonus....compared to a a guy that has a better collegiate wrestler, but not all THAT much better and who hasnt really adapted it all that well YET after taking years off away from the that sport is like splitting hairs....bottom line tho is, this isnt wrestling, its mma....there is a ton of more technique that goes into it than just wrestling....also, alot of people always say that couture has had trouble with larger guys, which isnt neccesarily true....5 years ago he fought a former all american wrestler with a black belt in bjj (ricco), and was winning the fight until he made a tactical error and ricco did his job and took advantage....barnett, all american wrestler with a stellar technical catch wrestling game, and randy was winning that until he made a tactical error.....what im getting at is not only was that 5 years of top notch training ago, but brock isnt technical, he doesnt have those skills, and to tell ya the truth i doubt he ever will be on the techncial level of those guys given that he is no spring chicken either........i think too much wrestling/mma math is being done on subject...at the end of the day randy should win with technique as long as he doenst get caught by the powerhouse that is lesnar, which is very possible.......and i cant wait to watch!




First of all thanks for the educated response in you have actually helped to justify my point in the 2nd paragraph I stated Technique does not always overcome strength. in what you are saying about Barnett and Ricco just backs that up we all know fighters esp. MMA fighters fight to there strength i.e KOS. GSP, BJ, Fedor etc. and the strength of both the fighters is wrestling.

Being this is no wrestling match that is why I includeing a lil bit more of a breakdown of why IMO Lesnar should win. I don't think at any point i gave a this fighter A beat fighter B so in turn fighter C beat fighter D so that means fighter C should beat fighter A as a metter of fact the only MMAmath was done by you ( 5 years ago he fought a former all american wrestler with a black belt in bjj (ricco),barnett, all american wrestler with a stellar technical catch wrestling game, and randy was winning that until he made a tactical error.

If anything you helped due to the fact you have shown some tendencies of Randy's when he squares up against a top notch grappler. I will say some props are deserved due to the education and well thought out arguement on your side.
jiujitsufreak74
9/24/08 5:13:24PM

Posted by sleevey

First of all thanks for the educated response in you have actually helped to justify my point in the 2nd paragraph I stated Technique does not always overcome strength. in what you are saying about Barnett and Ricco just backs that up we all know fighters esp. MMA fighters fight to there strength i.e KOS. GSP, BJ, Fedor etc. and the strength of both the fighters is wrestling.

Being this is no wrestling match that is why I includeing a lil bit more of a breakdown of why IMO Lesnar should win. I don't think at any point i gave a this fighter A beat fighter B so in turn fighter C beat fighter D so that means fighter C should beat fighter A as a metter of fact the only MMAmath was done by you ( 5 years ago he fought a former all american wrestler with a black belt in bjj (ricco),barnett, all american wrestler with a stellar technical catch wrestling game, and randy was winning that until he made a tactical error.

If anything you helped due to the fact you have shown some tendencies of Randy's when he squares up against a top notch grappler. I will say some props are deserved due to the education and well thought out arguement on your side.



let me first state that i think Couture is going to lose to Lesnar.

now that that has been established, i'll move on to your post. his examples with RR and Barnett are NOT MMAth. yo explained what MMAth is in your post, and what wiggum said was not MMAth. he was comparing how Randy faired against fighters with similar styles, which is a fair and just comparison and is a technique i personally use when picking fights. it's not like going off of past fights is always MMAth, otherwise what would be the point of researching fights? i also agree with what wiggum was saying about Couture further improving his wrestling skills while Brock did not. your argument of wrestling credentials only proves that when Randy was in college he was just a little bit less accomplished then Brock when Brock was at college.

now, imo Randy won't be able to handle the size and strength of Brock; which actually pisses me off because i like to believe that technique should overcome physical stature...but in this case i believe it won't be the case. Brock's freestyle does seem to translate well into MMA, just look at his fight with HH to see an example of how he is able to control someone from top position...that is a freestyle wrestling technique. either way i can't wait to see how this fight unfolds as i will be cheering for Randy to once again prove that he isn't done just yet.
grappler0000
9/24/08 5:17:19PM
You lost me at...


Weaknesses:

1.) Submission



I'm not sure why so many people believe this to be true...just because it's not his preferred method in most matches, doesn't mean it's a weakness.
gsquat
9/24/08 5:26:03PM
As above posters said, Brock's massive size advantage, speed, reach, and strength are enormous obstacles for Randy. Honestly, Sylvia and GG are no Brock. Randy can't handle him the way he did those guys. This isn't to say Randy can't find some strategy to win, but I'm playin' the odds on paper.
mkiv9secsupra
9/24/08 5:48:45PM

Posted by grappler0000

You lost me at...


Weaknesses:

1.) Submission



I'm not sure why so many people believe this to be true...just because it's not his preferred method in most matches, doesn't mean it's a weakness.



to be fair, when a guy like Tim Sylvia has as many submissions as Couture then you cant really say hes an expert either. Then couple that with the fact he has been submitted more times himself than he has submitted others and id say that subs are his biggest weakest.
Pitbull09
9/24/08 6:08:35PM

Posted by sleevey


Posted by wiggum


Posted by Aaronno9

Tbh, i havent really noticed anybody saying randys wrestling is better, not on these forums at least. Plus their styles of wrestling are totally differant so they both have areas where they are stronger than the other in terms of technique.




agreed, i havent noticed anybody saying its "light years" ahead either, but this is the only forum i hang out on.....and also, to use the excuse that he went to the wwe instead of trying to get on olympic team like couture did means that couture kept wrestling, kept getting better were as lesnar did not...so i dont know what you were trying to get at there.....at the end of the day its greco roman wrestling vs freestyle wrestling......so its not really fair to compare whos wrestling is better, its like comparing judo and ju jitsu...yeah they are similar, but not the same.....in my opionon greco roman wrestling is a far better style of wrestling for mma than freestyle is and factor in the years up on years (damn couture is freakin old!) of experience in greco and then using it to perfection in mma is a big bonus....compared to a a guy that has a better collegiate wrestler, but not all THAT much better and who hasnt really adapted it all that well YET after taking years off away from the that sport is like splitting hairs....bottom line tho is, this isnt wrestling, its mma....there is a ton of more technique that goes into it than just wrestling....also, alot of people always say that couture has had trouble with larger guys, which isnt neccesarily true....5 years ago he fought a former all american wrestler with a black belt in bjj (ricco), and was winning the fight until he made a tactical error and ricco did his job and took advantage....barnett, all american wrestler with a stellar technical catch wrestling game, and randy was winning that until he made a tactical error.....what im getting at is not only was that 5 years of top notch training ago, but brock isnt technical, he doesnt have those skills, and to tell ya the truth i doubt he ever will be on the techncial level of those guys given that he is no spring chicken either........i think too much wrestling/mma math is being done on subject...at the end of the day randy should win with technique as long as he doenst get caught by the powerhouse that is lesnar, which is very possible.......and i cant wait to watch!




First of all thanks for the educated response in you have actually helped to justify my point in the 2nd paragraph I stated Technique does not always overcome strength. in what you are saying about Barnett and Ricco just backs that up we all know fighters esp. MMA fighters fight to there strength i.e KOS. GSP, BJ, Fedor etc. and the strength of both the fighters is wrestling.

Being this is no wrestling match that is why I includeing a lil bit more of a breakdown of why IMO Lesnar should win. I don't think at any point i gave a this fighter A beat fighter B so in turn fighter C beat fighter D so that means fighter C should beat fighter A as a metter of fact the only MMAmath was done by you ( 5 years ago he fought a former all american wrestler with a black belt in bjj (ricco),barnett, all american wrestler with a stellar technical catch wrestling game, and randy was winning that until he made a tactical error.

If anything you helped due to the fact you have shown some tendencies of Randy's when he squares up against a top notch grappler. I will say some props are deserved due to the education and well thought out arguement on your side.



Your first statement isnt always true. When two fighters share a similar style they usually branch out to a different part of the game they think they are better at. Many fights with two wrestlers or a wrestler vs Bjj guy have remained standing. That is because they think their secondary skills are better than the other opponents secondary.

Lesnar prob will score the takedown often but I doubt Couture wants to turn it into a wrestling match. He wants to use close dirty boxing, clinch against the cage, and most importantly stretch the fight into later rounds.

I seriously doubt that anyone should believe that Lesnar has great (5 round) cardio. He has never gone that long and even when he went three, he didnt use much energy at all. Couture has been through 5 rounds and has the advantage if he doesnt get beat down in the 1st round. I think he also understands that and that will be his gameplan.
imanidiot777
9/24/08 6:31:39PM
First of all, props just for typing that enormous post, I can't believe I read it all.

There was an earlier post with a poll about who will win this "mini-tournament" with the four heavyweights and I chose Noguiera to come out on top. I think Brock will beat Randy and Nog will beat Brock as of right now, but if he can keep bringing in BJJ guys to help him out I think he has a CHANCE to win. If he can keep his legs out of the way, his arms are extremely hard to grab and hold on to and he's got a big enough size advantage even on Nog to keep him in front and not let his back get taken. Just my two cents, I'm still taking Nog if it comes to the picks though. If Mir somehow beats Nog I'll take Brock, I doubt he'd make that mistake twice and Mir is known for bad cardio, he'd wear him out.
Jackelope
9/24/08 6:56:25PM
One of the shittiest aspects of MMA is how size advantages play into the wrestling game. In striking and jiu jitsu it's my personal feeling that as long as the competitors are of relatively similar stature (within 50 lbs of one another) technique will most of the time beat out strength. Unfortunately when it comes to wrestling this doesn't seem to be the case (from my experiences) Because takedowns require a certain amount of explosiveness and muscle Especially when you consider that the two competitors have comparable wrestling credentials.

I won't pick Lesnar for this one even though I feel like he stands a very, very good chance of beating Couture and probably will.

My thinking is that Couture will force Lesnar to chase him around the cage a bit, then clinch, dirty box and hopefully defend some high crotch takedowns. If he can stuff Lesnar into the cage he can take away a lot of his strength and in my opinion Lesnar didn't show that great of a clinch game against Herring. Should he be able to get it later into the fight there's a decent chance Lesnar will gas from using all those muscles.

grappler0000
9/24/08 9:49:24PM

Posted by mkiv9secsupra


Posted by grappler0000

You lost me at...


Weaknesses:

1.) Submission



I'm not sure why so many people believe this to be true...just because it's not his preferred method in most matches, doesn't mean it's a weakness.



to be fair, when a guy like Tim Sylvia has as many submissions as Couture then you cant really say hes an expert either. Then couple that with the fact he has been submitted more times himself than he has submitted others and id say that subs are his biggest weakest.



Well, in all fairness, Couture hasn't been submitted in almost 8 years...I know he was submitted earlier in his career, but he's improved greatly since then. I think you'd see more subs by him if he didn't prefer to GnP his opponents. If you look at the Van Arsdale fight, Randy resorted to a submission when it was against an opponent that could negate much of his wrestling...I think the same thing will probably happen here. Also, you can't overlook the grappling match with Jacare. He may have had a size advantage, but the fact that Jacare couldn't submit him in a straight grappling match speaks to his evolution in that aspect of his game.

Lesnar has a definite chance of winning this fight, but I think he would have to be able to hold down Couture and pound him out to do so...and I don't think Randy would hesitate to give up his back to someone with limited submission training, so I'm not sure even that would work. Although Lesnar looked impressive against Herring, he also passed up many opportunities handed to him, due to being caught by Mir...I think that will play into Couture's gameplan if he gets into a bad situation.
sleevey
9/24/08 11:24:02PM
I can honestly say this has been one of the better educated and I truly respect everyone thoughts and opions this is truly what makes the Playground the best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I will give props to evereyone one this page due to some of the best post I have read regarding this fight thanks this can only help people choose who they pick for this fight!!!!

Jackelope still gotta spread the love a lil moree but i will get you the props later
Taylor8766
9/25/08 10:34:43AM
I haven't seen any one say that Couture is a better wrestler than Lesner, Lesner is a phenomanal wrestler theres no queston about that, and Couture although he is a very good wrestler he isn't where Lesner is in terms of wrestling.
punkstrings
9/25/08 3:06:02PM
Great Analysis!

I am rooting for Randy to pull out the win with experience. I think Brock has an advantage because of his size and strength added with the wrestiling pedigree he may be able to neutrilize Randy's wrestling strength.

But the BIGGEST indicator of how this fight could go is shown during the Lesnar/Herring fight on UFC 87. There were a couple of times that herring had brock in the clinch, pressing him on the cage. Brock looked like he didn't really know what to do. Heath looked the best in this position, Brock through a few semi-hard knees, but didn't do any punching/elbows. Brock was able to power out of the position and put herring against the cage, and almost immediately go for the takedown. Brock would not have such an easy time getting out of that position against Randy.


This is a REALLY EXCITING fight.
Aaronno9
9/25/08 6:38:01PM

Posted by Taylor8766

I haven't seen any one say that Couture is a better wrestler than Lesner, Lesner is a phenomanal wrestler theres no queston about that, and Couture although he is a very good wrestler he isn't where Lesner is in terms of wrestling.





In terms of freestyle he might not be anywhere near lesnar, but hes leaps and bounds ahead in the greco department.. I totally agree with jackalope (i think it was him who said it anyways) in that size advantage for wrestlers is huge. And lame. I mean, brocks so explosive, combine that with his huge stregnth, and i dont see anybody stuffing his takedowns for to long.
miphi1991
9/25/08 10:25:29PM
Brock and Randy are versed in two different styles of wrestling, that is something that no one seems to be focusing on. Randys style of Graeco-Roman wrestling is mostly upper body oriented. In that style of competition no touching of the opponents legs is permissable. Lesner was more successful in collegiate wrestling, where leg tackles are utilized. I think that Graeco-Roman often translates more successfully into MMA technique. I think Rand will win, but i also think it will be a helluva fight
Jackelope
9/25/08 11:43:17PM

Posted by miphi1991

Brock and Randy are versed in two different styles of wrestling, that is something that no one seems to be focusing on. Randys style of Graeco-Roman wrestling is mostly upper body oriented. In that style of competition no touching of the opponents legs is permissable. Lesner was more successful in collegiate wrestling, where leg tackles are utilized. I think that Graeco-Roman often translates more successfully into MMA technique. I think Rand will win, but i also think it will be a helluva fight



You're totally right about the different styles of wrestling. Any time I go in to work out at the gym I know that no matter whether it's standup, jiu jitsu or wrestling training that day I'll end up in a clinch pummeling for hooks at some point. The same can't be said about having to defend a double leg takedown.

The one thing I'll add, however, is that freestyle incorporates both leg takedowns and clinch takedowns. So they're not exactly something Lesnar hasn't trained for his whole life. Obviously from my paragraph above I believe Greco gets used more in MMA, but if you read my post earlier in the thread you'll see that I think when it comes to wrestling size and strength play a bigger factor than other disciplines. So, IMO, Randy's advantage with the greco clinch is somewhat (not all the way, but somewhat) nullified by Brock's natural size and strength advantage. It's especially hard to pummel for hooks on a dude who's got GIGANTIC lats and arms. Sucks, but I think it will play a big factor until Randy can nullify Lesnar's strength by pushing him up against the cage.
Pitbull09
9/26/08 1:19:03AM

Posted by punkstrings

Great Analysis!

I am rooting for Randy to pull out the win with experience. I think Brock has an advantage because of his size and strength added with the wrestiling pedigree he may be able to neutrilize Randy's wrestling strength.

But the BIGGEST indicator of how this fight could go is shown during the Lesnar/Herring fight on UFC 87. There were a couple of times that herring had brock in the clinch, pressing him on the cage. Brock looked like he didn't really know what to do. Heath looked the best in this position, Brock through a few semi-hard knees, but didn't do any punching/elbows. Brock was able to power out of the position and put herring against the cage, and almost immediately go for the takedown. Brock would not have such an easy time getting out of that position against Randy.


This is a REALLY EXCITING fight.



That is what people are forgetting. Randy likes the clinch against the cage. It takes away the bigger or stronger guys advantage as they are to close to make a hard shot and also are unable to try for the takedown. Brock better train well for that or he could be in trouble.

I am glad to be the first poster on here to give you props
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