Wrestling - explained

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shevtheman
7/7/09 1:26:15PM
Not by me of course! I'm sure there are a hell of a lot of guys on here that can help out though.
I'm relatively interested in wrestling but being in the UK it's not as big here and we dont have the levels and championships like you guys have. So, can someone explain the different championships you have...eg in college and above and especially the different divisions which are highly confusing (NCA division I,II etc etc..). In collegiate wrestling can you use other forms of wrestling like greco-roman or sambo or does every competitor have to use the same one? How do you get points, is it just for a pin or submission as well? Sorry if a lot of it sounds stupid and i have looked at wiki but its a little too much.

Thanks
telnights
7/7/09 3:01:59PM
Well there is way more to type out than I'm willing to do so....HERE
shevtheman
7/7/09 3:17:17PM
Oh nice, a link to wikipedia

Ok well can you at least explain the different orgainsations? Just so me and the rest of the non-US can work out how you judge who has better wrestling pedigree. All i see is Lesnar has NCIIA div II (made that up) or this and that has won championship for a certain organisation but that means nothing to me..
Jackelope
7/7/09 3:20:41PM
NCAA Division 1 is the highest level of collegiate wrestling. D2 is just below D1. NJCAA is National Junior College Athletic Association. Which you could consider below D1 and D2 since they are only two year colleges.

In collegiate wrestling you wrestle under a certain ruleset. Greco matches are greco matches, and folkstyle are folkstyle. That's not to say that Greco isn't useful in folkstyle wrestling, it's only a part of it. Certain moves are legal in some styles that are illegal in others.
cowcatcher
7/7/09 3:25:26PM
basically you start out in clubs as a kid, then move on to your middle school team, then high school team. after that you get offers from different colleges, div. 1 being the highest and down from there. after that there are olympic qualifiers, and then the actual olympic team. on top of that there are state, regional, and national tourneys for when youre older as well. here in wisconsin we have the badger state games and we separate the guys by weight of course and also by age because those young guys are tough for us geezers to hang with.

as far as points go, a pin is a win, thats that. depending on what type of wrestling it is you get different points for things like takedowns, escapes, reversals, and riding time. im far too lazy to write a whole thing on this right now, but wiki isnt a bad place to get the basics of it.
shevtheman
7/7/09 5:52:28PM
Ah thanks guys thats cleared up a lot, i think a few people will learn a few things. Basically this stemmed from me wondering if Shane Carwin or Cain Velasquez was the better wrestler but not really having a clue on the definitions of the information given to me. So basically, Brock Lesnar is a one time NCAA champ (doesn't say what division?!), 2 time NCAA All American (in my mind all American means he was in some kind of fantasy team at the end of the season meaning he was the best in his division?) and a 2 time NJCAA Champion. Shane Carwin is a one time NCAA II champ and Cain Velasquez is two time NCAA I All-American (doesn't say if he was champ?) so from all that information i've come to the conclusion that Brock Lesnar is the best or at least most decorated wrestler out of them all? And Cain is a much better wrestler than Carwin?

Another question i have is now i know there are these divisions, how are you put in a certain division and is there scope for movement within those divisions eg a poor div I wrestler moves down div II and vice versa?

Also, is there a universally approved awesome wrestling college that everyone aims to get to in the wrestling world?

Thanks a lot guys, this is some interesting stuff for a wrestling/US noob like me
Jackelope
7/7/09 6:23:24PM
All-Americans are just what you said. Kind of like Pro Bowlers in football. They're highly ranked wrestlers from that season. A lot of times you'll have All-Americans that weren't NCAA champs, but they were conference champs. Like in the case of Cain Velasquez, he was a Pac-10 champ. Pac 10 is just a conference within the overall realm of the NCAA's Division 1.

Wrestlers themselves aren't placed into a division based on their skills per se. Certain schools are Division 1 level schools, and some are Division 2 level schools. It has a lot to deal with how competitive their sports teams are and how many students those colleges house. Division 1 wrestling powerhouses are quite a bit different than the Division 1 football powerhouses. Some guys who follow NCAA wrestling could tell you better than I could, but a few powerhouses who have been powerhouses for a while that I know of are Iowa, Iowa State, Ohio State, Arizona State, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Michigan, Michigan State and a few more.

Notable NCAA Division 1 wrestlers competing in MMA are - Brock Lesnar (Minn), Cain Velasquez (Arizona State), Josh Koscheck (Edinboro Penn), Gray Maynard (Michigan State), Rashad Evans (Michigan State), CB Dolloway (Arizona State), Ryan Bader (Arizona State), Dan Henderson (Arizona State), Dan Severn (Arizona State), Kevin Randleman and Mark Coleman (Ohio State... I think) There's a lot more, but those are some currently well known guys competing in MMA from some serious powerhouse schools.

As far as Division 2 and Division 1 wrestlers in MMA- I wouldn't put so much emphasis on the schools they came from as I would how they use their wrestling in the Octagon. Which is up to you to decide based on the way you analyze their fights. (This is my nice way of not telling you who is a better wrestlers between Cain and Carwin)

EDIT: Also, what division you compete in is based entirely on which school you attend. So if you've got a scholarship to Iowa and you're competing on their wrestling team- you're a Division 1 level wrestler. If you can't cut it at the Div 1 level, then chances are you're not going to get a new scholarship and you'll be off their roster. They won't move you down to a school like the minor leagues in baseball, they'll just cut ties and you'll have to find your own school.
jiujitsufreak74
7/7/09 11:06:32PM
unfortunately the skill set of collegiate wrestling does not transfer perfectly into the octagon, which is what jackelope is hinting at. for example, Jake Rosholt is one of the most, if not the most, decorated wrestler in MMA in terms of colelgiate wrestling accomplishment. he is a 3 time D-1 Champion out of Oklahoma State, 4 time All-American (which means he was pretty much an all-star for all four years that he wrestled in college), and he won 3 Iowa State titles while in high school (which is an incredibly hard state to wrestle in). now when he moved to MMA he hasn't seemed to carry over his skill set. his grappling level isn't at the level of other UFC fighters.

GSP never wrestled once in college, yet his MMA adapted wrestling is probably the best there is. don't put too much emphasis on Collegiate achievements when trying to determine who is the better wrestler in the cage because they are really two different animals.
shevtheman
7/8/09 8:03:36AM
Wow, thanks guys a lot of great points made. I understand wrestling in MMA is a different beast to Wrestling in college but I was just wondering who was the better wrestler full stop. Of course its hard to come to a conclusion because theyve not fought each other in wrestling matches.
Y'all have a complex system there though, it seems a bit ruthless and political. Might try and catch some of the wrestling match ups on YouTube, see if i can figure this stuff out.
Again, thanks a lot. will point a few other wrestling newbies to this thread
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