Some of The Worst Calls I've Ever Seen At 85

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GrizzlyChadams
6/8/08 12:43:35AM
I couldn't believe some of the calls the refs made at 85. I mean the stop during the Vera/ Werdum fight was just terrible. Then the extra point taken off of marquardt for elbows to the back of the head even though they clearly weren't hitting the back of his head. So disappointed. I understand it's a tough job but come on..
bullettdodger
6/8/08 12:45:39AM
I couldn't agree more about the Vera fight and with the extra point deducted from Nate... its really shameful that he lost that fight due to the fact that there was an extra point taken away.
tuvok500
6/8/08 12:46:59AM

Posted by GrizzlyChadams

I couldn't believe some of the calls the refs made at 85. I mean the stop during the Vera/ Werdum fight was just terrible. Then the extra point taken off of marquardt for elbows to the back of the head even though they clearly weren't hitting the back of his head. So disappointed. I understand it's a tough job but come on..





so angry about the marquardt fight ....

Vera well, it was a bad stoppage for sure but Werdum was in full mount and Vera was not going to improve the position for the next 20 sec of the rd so, anyways bad call..

GrizzlyChadams
6/8/08 12:49:19AM
I realize Werdum had the mount but their was 15 seconds left. Vera easily could have taken the damage and turned things around the next round.

And Marquardt looked so damn good the entire match and only lost due to the fact that the extra point was taken off.
RandyCouture
6/8/08 1:05:19AM
Wasnt that the same ref from the Kimbo fight for the Werdum and Vera fight and guy need to be fired or stop taking bribs
ncordless
6/8/08 1:32:11AM
Yeah this event and the CBS debacle have not been good shows for the refs.
NinjaCyborg
6/8/08 1:38:37AM
I honestly saw nothing wrong with the Werdum/Vera decision.

Vera was laying there getting pummeled and he was not intelligently defending himself.

I say it was a good call!
Jackelope
6/8/08 1:45:53AM
Strange refereeing decisions aside, I think this was one of the worst cards put on by the UFC within the last 3 years. It was cursed from the start with all the card changes, anyway.
gartface
6/8/08 1:56:43AM
I wholeheartedly disagree that the Werdum stoppage was incorrent. It was slightly premature, but it wasn't like Werdum was just punching his arms and gloves, he was landing shots to the chin, side of the head...15 more seconds Vera would've been out cold.
Cobbs666
6/8/08 1:57:41AM
Wheres big john when ya need him
holt8081
6/8/08 2:19:53AM
Same ref that screwed JT out of his fight may have screwed another fighter. and herb dean can make 1 mistake, normaly he is the best ref out there.
gartface
6/8/08 2:25:51AM

Posted by holt8081

Same ref that screwed JT out of his fight may have screwed another fighter. and herb dean can make 1 mistake, normaly he is the best ref out there.


Vera was getting smashed...and he wasn't going anywhere. 15 more seconds of that would have seriously hurt him. And to be honest Herb Dean is known for early stoppages as well, if he was in the octagon with the Werdum/Vera fight, I think he would have stopped it at about the same time as well.
puppetmaster837
6/8/08 3:21:29AM

Posted by gartface


Posted by holt8081

Same ref that screwed JT out of his fight may have screwed another fighter. and herb dean can make 1 mistake, normaly he is the best ref out there.


Vera was getting smashed...and he wasn't going anywhere. 15 more seconds of that would have seriously hurt him. And to be honest Herb Dean is known for early stoppages as well, if he was in the octagon with the Werdum/Vera fight, I think he would have stopped it at about the same time as well.

Those weren't hammer fists Werdum was throwing. Those were bombs that he defended but not good enough.
89vision
6/8/08 4:22:07AM
the vera fight was questionable either way... leaning toward favoring vera, the fight that was upsetting was the marquardt fight when herb was the ref he gave nate one too many penalties and instead of a draw which is should have been talles won by split decision, oh well im glad talles won, that dude is tough
Aether
6/8/08 7:24:10AM
Uhhh you don't just automatically win when you mount someone and punch them a few times. He was clearly defending himself, moving his upper body to try to avoid the shots, and if he had rolled onto his back he could easily have avoided a choke for 10 seconds.

Bad stoppage, he wasn't even close to being dazed. You have no clue how much those punches were hurting him and you can't possibly say he would've been out cold. I've seen many fighters take way worse punishment that Werdum was handing Vera, and the fact that there was only 15 seconds left probably played into his decision to cover up instead of trying to escape.

I'm sorry but you can't use your gift of psychic powers to justify early stoppages. You might "know" what would've happened but the rest of the planet realizes that he more than likely would've made it out of that round and we'll never know because he wasn't given the chance.

Dan Miragliotta is a bad ref and I don't think he should be on another major card until he learns what "unable to intelligently defend" means.
Aether
6/8/08 7:29:31AM
I really don't see how you can say another 15 seconds would have seriously hurt him when the first 15 seconds didn't hurt him even a tiny bit. He wasn't swinging that hard, half of them were hitting his forearms. Look at how fast he got up when it was stopped and how obviously clear headed he was. Look at his face, he's not even remotely bruised or even slightly discoloured, the punches were not hitting that cleanly, most of them were hitting his arms and they were obviously not being thrown with real stopping power. Bad stoppage. Covering up and moving around is an intelligent defense when you're mounted. He was intelligently defending.

If this is a good stoppage I guess we might as well just instantly stop every fight any time someone lands a punch from mount.
Ben_Hutch
6/8/08 10:48:58AM
My friend spoke to Dan last night (the referee who stopped the Vera fight), Dan said that during the fight he asked Vera:
"Do you want me to stop the fight?"
He heard Vera say:
"Ok ok ok"
It wasn't until after the fight that he realised Vera was actually saying "I'm ok, I'm ok, I'm ok".
Aaronno9
6/8/08 10:58:36AM
I hate bad decisions. Refs should have some sort of punishment for making bad decisions, becouse it seems to be happening time and time again latley, with not much being done. They put sour twist on entire events and something should be done, suspensions, fines, whatever, just something to make the refs try harder to not screw up. I mean who knows how much money nate missed now hes not getting his win bonus, due to a call which was clearly wrong. I actually kind of thought the ref knew it was wrong and he was trying to give thales an advantage after the knee in the head.

Thing is though, i think everybody knows nate deserved that win, and it definatly hasnt effected his rankings in my opinion. It was an awesome fight, just a pitty it was botched by that knee and silly refereeing.
JimiMak
6/8/08 11:10:30AM
the second point from Nate was questionable, but then he goes and piledrives the guy (clearly illegal) so he made up for it. After the first illegal knee it wasn't the same match anyway. Nate really needs to pay more attention to what he is and isn't allowed to do. Pancrase had more rules so he should be fine.

We don't know what kind of repercussions refs face. But professionalism would dictate that we wouldn't hear about it.
Aether
6/8/08 11:22:02AM
the knee was illegal and he had a point deducted rightly so, that has nothing to do with the second point being deducted, and picking someone up and dropping them on their heads is not illegal, sorry. You can't justify what happened in there by claiming the slam was illegal or that "the fight wasn't the same after the knee" a point was deducted for the knee and he was given ample time to recover. ONE accidental illegal blow, it happens and he was punished accordingly. It's not like he didn't understand the rules, or that he intentionally fouled him, Leites was on his way up and Marquardt more than likely couldn't tell that his left knee was still touching the ground from his viewpoint.

Your points about him "making up for it" are wrong and ignorant. Slamming isn't illegal and even if it were it wouldn't justify a fighter losing a fight because of a ref doing his job poorly.

I really don't see why incorrect decisions can't be overturned. The video is right there, everyone saw that it was the side of the head, it would be pretty simple for them to simply cancel the point deduction when they realized the ref was wrong. Decisions shouldn't be set in stone, makes no sense at all.
theguido
6/8/08 11:44:37AM
IMO Nate got screwed plain and simple. The last point taken was a bad call, it seems that any shot near the back of the head gets called these days.

The vera call was questional but i would have liked to see it go a bit longer.
prozacnation1978
6/8/08 11:50:23AM
nate and brandon both got screwed and cost them both title contention
this event sure didn't take that bad taste out of my mouth from last weeks fights, man these refs need to go back to basics and get re trained
89vision
6/8/08 12:29:38PM
everybody read this, marquardt was not screwed out of a win, that knee he threw at thales could have cost him a DQ if Thales wasnt such a badass

even if that 2nd point wasnt taken away it would have been a DRAW

nate needed to finish the fight to win, the ref screwed him out of a DRAW
NinjaCyborg
6/8/08 12:39:36PM

Posted by Aether

Uhhh you don't just automatically win when you mount someone and punch them a few times. He was clearly defending himself, moving his upper body to try to avoid the shots, and if he had rolled onto his back he could easily have avoided a choke for 10 seconds.

Bad stoppage, he wasn't even close to being dazed. You have no clue how much those punches were hurting him and you can't possibly say he would've been out cold. I've seen many fighters take way worse punishment that Werdum was handing Vera, and the fact that there was only 15 seconds left probably played into his decision to cover up instead of trying to escape.

I'm sorry but you can't use your gift of psychic powers to justify early stoppages. You might "know" what would've happened but the rest of the planet realizes that he more than likely would've made it out of that round and we'll never know because he wasn't given the chance.

Dan Miragliotta is a bad ref and I don't think he should be on another major card until he learns what "unable to intelligently defend" means.



Laying on your back, putting your hands on your head is NOT intelligently defending. He was not working to get out of the position, he was not attempting to stop the punches, he was just laying there with his hands covering his face. It was a good call by the ref to stop it.
NinjaCyborg
6/8/08 12:47:11PM

Posted by Aether

....and picking someone up and dropping them on their heads is not illegal, sorry. You can't justify what happened in there by claiming the slam was illegal or that "the fight wasn't the same after the knee" ....



Actually you are completely 100% wrong. Read the official MMA rules on UFC.com, Rule 18 -- Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
It's an illegal move.

http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules

Fouls: [Top]
1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.
thatfedorsohotrightnow
6/8/08 1:00:25PM
I guess we should be careful what we ask for. MMA going more mainstream will continue to water down the product. We can't have little Billy seeing a man's ear explode with blood. Now even PPV's are losing the edge.
Aaronno9
6/8/08 1:24:38PM

Posted by 89vision

everybody read this, marquardt was not screwed out of a win, that knee he threw at thales could have cost him a DQ if Thales wasnt such a badass

even if that 2nd point wasnt taken away it would have been a DRAW

nate needed to finish the fight to win, the ref screwed him out of a DRAW




At least if it was a draw nate would of got a rematch or still been in line for another title shot, now hes going to have to win 2 more fights minimum to get another shot.
bullettdodger
6/8/08 1:42:08PM

Posted by Aaronno9


At least if it was a draw nate would of got a rematch or still been in line for another title shot, now hes going to have to win 2 more fights minimum to get another shot.



I agree with you, but i also just thought of something, no disrespect to Leites, but if Nate had as much trouble with him as he did.... do you really think he is ready to try A. Silva again?
PITBULL2
6/8/08 2:02:15PM

Posted by GrizzlyChadams

I couldn't believe some of the calls the refs made at 85. I mean the stop during the Vera/ Werdum fight was just terrible. Then the extra point taken off of marquardt for elbows to the back of the head even though they clearly weren't hitting the back of his head. So disappointed. I understand it's a tough job but come on..



LMAO, you may have a point for the Vera fight, but this is how I see it with Marquardt. The crushing, potentially TKO illegal knee he threw, should have disqualified him from the fight right off the bat. So your telling me someone can throw one soft ass elbow or punch to the back of the head, and it's technically the same (as far as the rules go) for giving the fighter a warning or deducting a point?

No, Herb Dean knew that illegal knee counted for about 10 warning shots and made sure Nate wouldn't win a decision by docking the point off with the elbow to the back of the head. Yes I will say that elbow was not an illegal blow, but I think you would be extra cautious, maybe paranoid, as a ref if you saw the same fighter throw that bullshit illegal knee.
keith-hackney1
6/8/08 3:33:08PM
You cant blame a ref when his job is to ensure the safety of all the fighters for stopping the werdum vs vera fight the way he did. Arguably, vera was blocking alot of those shots, though i could see some getting in. Vera was in a bad position and did not improve, he was taking lots of shots so i dont blame the ref for the stoppage, premature or not, from his onlook, it was a good call. As for the Marquardt fight, the blows to the back of the head .. My understanding of that rule is that any shots landed behind the ear are classed as the back of the head. As Marquardt used his elbow, there is no real evidence to the fans camera view of what part of his elbow landed. It looked like the outer side of the elbow was landing near the top of the ear, but from the camera angle i saw, it could of grazed with the inner side of his elbow. Refs call, he had the best view. Like any sport, not always is it the case that the right call is made. Ask yourself, Nate did not seem to bothered about the point deductions, maybe thats because he knew he did hit his opponent with illegal shots ???

Herb dean is still the best ref in mma !!!!
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