Women Cutting Weight

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aceprone
9/15/07 4:17:12PM
With the recent Gina Carano situation about her cutting weight. I've noticed on forums that people are giving her a hard time. I have read cases, expecially in the "Sherdog" forums, that she doesn't take the fight game seriously. Which could be true, but there is no proof.

I think what her problem about cutting weight might be a natural problem. Now, I'm no doctor or anything like that, but I have taken some science classes in college and what I do know is that the man's body weight is different then a women's body weight. For instance, a man's body weight is made of more water then it is fat. And women have more fat stored in their body then water. That is why it is easier for a women to get drunk then a man, because women don't have enough water to dilute the alcohol in their system.

Now, with the fight game, men can cut 15lbs of just water weight alone, even if the man has a low fat percentage. But that's because men are capable of doing this, because of the extra water weight stored in our bodies. With women, a weight cut like this can be extremely more difficult for a women, expecially if the woman is in shape and doesn't have a high fat percentage in her body, like Gina Carano.

With this being said, I think women should not be made to make extreme weight cuts and my advice to Gina is to fight at a slightly heavier weight. For her own health and safety.

If anyone else has any other facts about this, please share, I am all ears!
scobac
9/15/07 4:59:23PM
what's the situation with Gina Carano? specifics?
JimiMak
9/15/07 5:07:35PM
Basically she's never fought lower than 145 (if I'm not mistaken) this fight is at 140 and ppl think she looks emaciated and are starting to take the high odds for her opponent thinking she's overdone herself.

I don't really agree w/ the weight cutting the way most guys do it anyway. I believe in the day of weigh in w/ a small weight percent gain allowed. Idk if it's a m/f thing. I also don't think anyone should take a fight at a weight they can't comfortably fight at.
Stickan
9/15/07 5:28:08PM
I've lost a lot of respect for Gina.
I think they were supposed to fight at 135 first but Gina couldn't make it so they agreed upon 140 but she comes in at 141.1 and looks awful.

from sherdog.com
"Carano, who came it at 141.1 pounds, appeared weak while doing a one-leg balancing act on the scale. With promoters briefly discussing whether the Las Vegan would need to drop the weight, Carano's opponent Tonya Evinger (Pictures) looked on, surprised to learn that there was a one-pound weight allowance.

Carano, shaky and on weak legs, rushed to take a seat, where she gulped down Pedialite before Evinger finally conceded and the fight was made official. As the two squared off for the traditional staredown, Carano barely had the energy to keep her arms raised, eventually opting to fold them across her chest."

So damn spoiled by EliteXC, she knows she can get away with shit like that. Totally disrespecting her opponent by first not making weight, then starting gulping down Pedialite before the status of the fight is even official.

She's always had problems making weight. As for the guy vs girl weight cutting thing I've never heard of any other female fighter having problems making weight. It's the same for all these girls. She's been a fighter for years and still has problems making weight AND GETS AWAY WITH IT.
And then she's on fightgirls preaching these girls about the weight cut and how important it is.

Gina's hot but I sincerely hope Evinger breaks her nose and embarrass her badly.
loonytnt
9/15/07 5:41:12PM
i dont know her but if you weight 145 you can make 135, if you work weight is easy
fullerene
9/15/07 6:06:31PM
Interesting original post. I hadn't heard that before (fat vs. water composition) but if that's true it WILL be tougher to cut weight for women. Losing weight and cutting it are different. You don't drop appreciably amounts of fat in 24-48 hours. That type of loss is all water. Obviously it can still be done, but you can't drop the % of water in your body to 0, so there's a limit to how "dry" you can get. There have been some recent boxers who've lost lots of $$ in their career by not being able to boil off an extra couple of pounds (Jose Luis Castillo and Diego Corrales are a couple). It's also not fair to compare a 145 pound person cutting to 135 pounds to that of a 220 pound fighter cutting to 205 and saying "well the other guy cut 15 pounds"...a % of body weight is more appropriate.

That's more philosophical than practical, though. In this specific case, a 5 pound cut should be manageable, particulalry since she has a top-notch training team and facility. Seeing her on the Fight Girls show it was obvious that he doesn't maintain her conditioning when she's not fighting and that's caught up to her...I'm sure she was much heavier than 145 on that show (maybe 155-160?).
aceprone
9/16/07 12:52:20AM

Posted by fullerene

Interesting original post. I hadn't heard that before (fat vs. water composition) but if that's true it WILL be tougher to cut weight for women. Losing weight and cutting it are different. You don't drop appreciably amounts of fat in 24-48 hours. That type of loss is all water. Obviously it can still be done, but you can't drop the % of water in your body to 0, so there's a limit to how "dry" you can get. There have been some recent boxers who've lost lots of $$ in their career by not being able to boil off an extra couple of pounds (Jose Luis Castillo and Diego Corrales are a couple). It's also not fair to compare a 145 pound person cutting to 135 pounds to that of a 220 pound fighter cutting to 205 and saying "well the other guy cut 15 pounds"...a % of body weight is more appropriate.

That's more philosophical than practical, though. In this specific case, a 5 pound cut should be manageable, particulalry since she has a top-notch training team and facility. Seeing her on the Fight Girls show it was obvious that he doesn't maintain her conditioning when she's not fighting and that's caught up to her...I'm sure she was much heavier than 145 on that show (maybe 155-160?).



But to answer your statement and lonnytnt statement about it being easy to make a 5 pound weight cut for a women, I don't think it's the same for a man. Even for a man who is in the lightweight division's.

In the males lightweight divisions, you have at least 10 pound gaps between the lighter weights. Example, 155 to 145 to 135, and ext.... But a man can make that 10 pound cut, again because a man is able to carry more water then a women. And for a women to make a 5 pound cut, maybe like a man making a 10 pound cut.

For example: When a women who weighs the same as a man next to her and the man and women are both drinking alcohol who do you think will get drunk the fastest?

A women will, even if they are drinking the same alcohol drink. Because that one drink may bring her blood alcohol limit to a .02, when it may take the man with the same built and weight 3 beers to reach a .02 blood alcohol limit. (I'm just summarizing what I"ve learned, I'm not posting exact facts from a sheet, but it can be found about the blood alcohol ratio between a man and a women.)

So when a man has a hard time cutting 10lbs to a lower weight class, it may be equivilent to a women only having to cut 5lbs. What may seem like only 5lbs cut to a man, may actually seem like 10lbs to 15lbs cut for a women.

gravy13
9/16/07 1:12:21AM
Also, it has to do with metabolic rate. Metabolic rate is the rate at which the body burns calories. Metabolic rate is has a lot to do with the amount of muscle you have. Typically guys have more muscle. The more muscle you have the faster the metabolic rate and you burn more calories. It has a lot to do with genetics.
Rush
9/16/07 10:10:37AM

Posted by aceprone
I think what her problem about cutting weight might be a natural problem. Now, I'm no doctor or anything like that, but I have taken some science classes in college and what I do know is that the man's body weight is different then a women's body weight. For instance, a man's body weight is made of more water then it is fat. And women have more fat stored in their body then water. That is why it is easier for a women to get drunk then a man, because women don't have enough water to dilute the alcohol in their system.




You have the right idea, but your explanation is a little off.

Women have a higher percentage of body fat. That means a woman can potentially have less blood mass than a man of equal weight, but that is only if the fat % is different by a significant amount.

Now, IMO, if you take a man or a woman of equal weight and fat %, they should have relatively equal amounts of body blood/water.

To say that women have more fat stored in their body than water is a little misleading.
aceprone
9/16/07 11:35:13AM

Posted by Rush


Posted by aceprone
I think what her problem about cutting weight might be a natural problem. Now, I'm no doctor or anything like that, but I have taken some science classes in college and what I do know is that the man's body weight is different then a women's body weight. For instance, a man's body weight is made of more water then it is fat. And women have more fat stored in their body then water. That is why it is easier for a women to get drunk then a man, because women don't have enough water to dilute the alcohol in their system.




You have the right idea, but your explanation is a little off.

Women have a higher percentage of body fat. That means a woman can potentially have less blood mass than a man of equal weight, but that is only if the fat % is different by a significant amount.

Now, IMO, if you take a man or a woman of equal weight and fat %, they should have relatively equal amounts of body blood/water.

To say that women have more fat stored in their body than water is a little misleading.



Not to downplay your statement, but are you a doctor? Because you can't say "IMO," if you don't know about a women's body structure. No disrespect. Because I'm not assuming that it is easier for a women to get drunk then a man. That's just the truth.

Because even if you compaire a man and a women of the same body type, the man is going to carry more muscle mass, which means he is storing more water then the women of the same height and weight.
Rush
9/16/07 3:32:40PM

Posted by aceprone

Not to downplay your statement, but are you a doctor?



I will be in about a year.



Posted by aceprone

Because you can't say "IMO," if you don't know about a women's body structure. No disrespect. Because I'm not assuming that it is easier for a women to get drunk then a man. That's just the truth.

Because even if you compare a man and a women of the same body type, the man is going to carry more muscle mass, which means he is storing more water then the women of the same height and weight.




Please read my post again. A man and a women of equal weight and body fat % will have about the same amount of muscle mass. That is pure physics and chemistry. There is no evidence that I am aware of that men have a higher % of water in the body than women given the criteria I mentioned above. Body type is a general term that doesn't accurately describe the criteria that you need to make the statements you are making.

Your statements about looking at blood alcohol levels are not necessarily true. Sure, overall body mass does play a part in how easily you get drunk. But there are other factors that play a role in getting drunk too.

First, the overall expression of ethanol dehydrogenase (aka ADH, but not to be mistaken for anti-diuretic hormone) in your body. This enzyme oxidizes alcohol into aldehydes and acetates. Different people have different expression levels ADH and will therefore respond to various degrees to alcohol intake

Second, the bulk of alcohol that is consumed is in your blood and brain, not your muscle and fat. This is why I explicitly said that a female of equal weight and fat % should have roughly the same about of blood volume as a man.

Third, the manner in which you consume the alcohol also determines how fast you get drunk. Drinking alcohol with juice has a much slower absorption rate than drinking with water.

A personal anecdote:
My wife is about 110 lbs and she can drink more alcohol than her father, mother and two sisters combined.

Therefore I think your drinking analogy is vastly oversimplified.


Oh and I know womens' body structures just fine thank you.
Stickan
9/16/07 4:19:54PM
To go back to the original post. I don't know if you brought this up in some kind of defense for Gina or if I misunderstood you but all women obviously fight and make wiehgt under the same conditions so she should be able to make weight every time she steps up on that scale. But she seldom does and it's extremely disrespectful to her opponents.
She's getting so spoiled it's ridiculous. Who was she fighting again!? Tonya Evinger?!? Roger Huerta is getting tougher tests than that...
aceprone
9/16/07 4:23:56PM
gottcha.... I was just going over information I learned in my Drug and Alcohol Abuse class in college. And that was one of the subjects we talked about, with men and women. Now, I'm sure there may be exceptions out there.

I know I'm simplifing because I'm not an expert and I appreciate your clarity of your reply.

But I was just wondering if there is a connection with dropping weight and alcohol consumption because of what I learned about men having more water weight, then women.

So I raised the question, is it harder for a women to drop large amounts of weight then a man? I'm not trying to make conncrete facts about cutting weight, because I don't know. But from what I learned, it just seems that it might be possible. And I don't agree what a man and women of the same height and weight, are going to have the same muscle mass. I really doubt the Urijah Faber and Gina Carano have the same muscle mass.

That's why it's hard for me to agree with your statements. But there's nothing like a good arguement

It's how we learn, as long as it's constructive.
Rush
9/16/07 5:05:09PM

Posted by aceprone

But I was just wondering if there is a connection with dropping weight and alcohol consumption because of what I learned about men having more water weight, then women.

So I raised the question, is it harder for a women to drop large amounts of weight then a man? I'm not trying to make conncrete facts about cutting weight, because I don't know. But from what I learned, it just seems that it might be possible. And I don't agree what a man and women of the same height and weight, are going to have the same muscle mass. I really doubt the Urijah Faber and Gina Carano have the same muscle mass.



No worries and I have no problem with being wrong as long as there is sufficient evidence to convince me.

Now, about your Faber statement. I don't doubt that he has more muscle mass because it is most likely that his body fat % is much lower than Gina's. However, that wasn't what I was saying above. I was saying that a Man that is 150 lbs with 10% body fat will have about the same amount of body water as a woman that weighs 150 lbs with 10% body fat. Women naturally have a higher % of body fat (especially Gina because she looks like she has quite large breasts). So if you said that Gina has less body water than Faber, I wouldn't have argued your statement. Besides, Gina didn't seem to have any problems winning her fight last night.

Your statement is not incorrect, but it is generalized for average men vs women and not normalized for body fat %,etc.

Now another way to look at it is this way. If what you are saying is a general statement then it should be harder for a LW or WW to drop water weight than a HW (just talking about the men only). Now, I wont argue that a 300lb guy has more body water than a 180lb guy, but there is a point where the % of fat on the on each guy starts to make a difference i.e. the difference in body water is not necessarily directly proportional to their absolute mass. i.e. a 300lb guy with 25% fat content wil not likely be able to cut as much as a 300lb guy with 5-10% fat content.

Also, there is a range of the amount of water retention (albeit small) for people of the same body mass and fat %.

In addition, cutting weight is not all water weight. Heck it only takes a few percent of water loss to become dehydrated, so I doubt that these guys are cutting much more than 5-8 lbs of water before a fight. It has been said before in here and by fighters that weight cutting starts a week or two before a fight and invovles cutting out fat and carbs to become more lean and then cutting the last bit in water the day of the weigh in.

aceprone
9/16/07 8:47:00PM
I completely agree that there's a difference between cutting weight between weight classes, expecially the higher you go. No argument from me.

Here's another example.... Someone like Joe Riggs. I have no clue what he naturally weighs, because he'll jump from 170 to 185. And I've heard, on the Beatdown and what not, that he's cut to 170 is close to a 30lb cut. And I'm sure at his natural weight he has an extremely low fat percentage. And I do know, that alot of his weight cut can be up to 20lbs of water weight, not fat. And i know this because my roommate use to be a personal trainer and told me, this is possible.

Could a women around the same size as Joe Riggs, make those types of cuts?

And I understand what you are saying about women carrying more fat then men, I won't argue that. But I just can't see it being that easy (not to say that it is easy at all), for a women to make weight cuts like Joe Riggs.

I"m going to research this more tonight, because my mind is just going in circles about it. haha.... I see what you're saying, but I want to read some medical sources. I'll post something if I find it.
Rush
9/16/07 9:44:03PM

Posted by aceprone


Could a women around the same size as Joe Riggs, make those types of cuts?




If there are any MMA females the size of Joe Riggs I suggest running.
aceprone
9/16/07 11:07:30PM
haha, well she would be a amazon women for sure.
Stickan
9/17/07 9:01:20AM
Oh and Gina had her period which she said made the cutting even harder...
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