If BJ wins....who gets next shot (Florian:155 or Alves:170)[POLL]

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POLL: IF BJ wins: which title he should defend 1st?
155 vs Florian (Alves wait in line next) 36% (31)
155 vs Florian (Alves get another fight) 23% (20)
170 vs Alves (Florian wait in line next) 23% (20)
170 vs Alves (Florian get another fight) 6% (5)
Let Don King decide this 13% (11)
Wolfenstein
11/20/08 7:09:56PM
I don't think Jackelope is trying to insult you, as he's one of the most respected and nicest guys here. He's just stressing the importance of coming in at exactly the same weight. Cutting those last few pounds is one of the most difficult things you can do, because at some point when you're cutting 20lbs and above, your body stops sweating. If you can't make the weight then you shouldn't be in that division...period! For someone else to not have to go through that arduous process is unfair.

As far as a minor ofense for using diuretics...it's a big issue, because diuretics are known to be masking agents for steroids.

Just my opinion, and maybe we'll both just agree to disagree on this one.

I think Kenny was promised a title shot after beating Huerta, so after having taken on the other fight it has to be Kenny's time.
Jackelope
11/20/08 10:15:20PM

Posted by EvenFlow


Posted by Jackelope

So then Brock Lesnar could come down to 155 and wreck all the competition but never take a title shot and everything would be fine?

Really, not requiring them to make weight is .... I don't even know how to describe it without sounding like I'm insulting. It's a huge part of the fight game. Yes, guys are overweight come fight time, but there has to be a starting point. If I were you I'd just stop arguing this right now because NOBODY is going to agree with you, LOL. If they do their stock goes down big time IMO



You completely missed the point I think they should be around the weight just dont care if they make it for a non title fight and I could care less if you or anyone agrees with my opinion, at no point did I say I was right I said it was strictly opinion, so direct your nose in someones elses business if you dont like it because I dont give a crap that you think you know more than me about MMA or this topic and insinuate I'm stupid for having an opinion different from yours or whoever, get over it.



LOL.. wow... defensive much? Really- I wasn't trying to be insulting. Notice the fact that I didn't elaborate because specifically I didn't want to sound like I was insulting your opinion. I'm not sure how much more clear I could have been on that.

As Wolfenstein said (and thank you bro, wish I could dish props but gotta spread the love) I'm merely stressing the importance of the process of cutting weight and making weight for a fight. You may think 5 lbs. isn't a big difference, but it is a huge difference when guys are already cutting 20 lbs. to make weight. It is not an issue of opinion- it's an issue of fighter safety and general fairness. That's why weight classes are imposed more by the athletic commissions and not by the companies themselves.

Using diuretics is definitely a big deal since 1- It's against the rules, and 2- You get into even more fighter safety issues.

Anyway, I'm not going to press you too hard because obviously you're extremely sensitive about the issue- but believe me, weight cutting is drastically important

bjj1605
11/21/08 12:44:30AM

Posted by Jackelope


Posted by EvenFlow


Posted by Jackelope

So then Brock Lesnar could come down to 155 and wreck all the competition but never take a title shot and everything would be fine?

Really, not requiring them to make weight is .... I don't even know how to describe it without sounding like I'm insulting. It's a huge part of the fight game. Yes, guys are overweight come fight time, but there has to be a starting point. If I were you I'd just stop arguing this right now because NOBODY is going to agree with you, LOL. If they do their stock goes down big time IMO



You completely missed the point I think they should be around the weight just dont care if they make it for a non title fight and I could care less if you or anyone agrees with my opinion, at no point did I say I was right I said it was strictly opinion, so direct your nose in someones elses business if you dont like it because I dont give a crap that you think you know more than me about MMA or this topic and insinuate I'm stupid for having an opinion different from yours or whoever, get over it.



LOL.. wow... defensive much? Really- I wasn't trying to be insulting. Notice the fact that I didn't elaborate because specifically I didn't want to sound like I was insulting your opinion. I'm not sure how much more clear I could have been on that.

As Wolfenstein said (and thank you bro, wish I could dish props but gotta spread the love) I'm merely stressing the importance of the process of cutting weight and making weight for a fight. You may think 5 lbs. isn't a big difference, but it is a huge difference when guys are already cutting 20 lbs. to make weight. It is not an issue of opinion- it's an issue of fighter safety and general fairness. That's why weight classes are imposed more by the athletic commissions and not by the companies themselves.

Using diuretics is definitely a big deal since 1- It's against the rules, and 2- You get into even more fighter safety issues.

Anyway, I'm not going to press you too hard because obviously you're extremely sensitive about the issue- but believe me, weight cutting is drastically important




i agree man but theres no point in arguing. Some one who says making weight isn't important really shouldn't be a part of the discussion here.
EvenFlow
11/21/08 2:12:14AM

Posted by Jackelope


Posted by EvenFlow


Posted by Jackelope

So then Brock Lesnar could come down to 155 and wreck all the competition but never take a title shot and everything would be fine?

Really, not requiring them to make weight is .... I don't even know how to describe it without sounding like I'm insulting. It's a huge part of the fight game. Yes, guys are overweight come fight time, but there has to be a starting point. If I were you I'd just stop arguing this right now because NOBODY is going to agree with you, LOL. If they do their stock goes down big time IMO



You completely missed the point I think they should be around the weight just dont care if they make it for a non title fight and I could care less if you or anyone agrees with my opinion, at no point did I say I was right I said it was strictly opinion, so direct your nose in someones elses business if you dont like it because I dont give a crap that you think you know more than me about MMA or this topic and insinuate I'm stupid for having an opinion different from yours or whoever, get over it.



LOL.. wow... defensive much? Really- I wasn't trying to be insulting. Notice the fact that I didn't elaborate because specifically I didn't want to sound like I was insulting your opinion. I'm not sure how much more clear I could have been on that.

As Wolfenstein said (and thank you bro, wish I could dish props but gotta spread the love) I'm merely stressing the importance of the process of cutting weight and making weight for a fight. You may think 5 lbs. isn't a big difference, but it is a huge difference when guys are already cutting 20 lbs. to make weight. It is not an issue of opinion- it's an issue of fighter safety and general fairness. That's why weight classes are imposed more by the athletic commissions and not by the companies themselves.

Using diuretics is definitely a big deal since 1- It's against the rules, and 2- You get into even more fighter safety issues.

Anyway, I'm not going to press you too hard because obviously you're extremely sensitive about the issue- but believe me, weight cutting is drastically important




Yeah diuetics arnt the smartest decision, Kimbo got beat by a 205er, thats not my best example or a base argument but weight classes just arnt of much importance to me... whats wrong with that? I shouldnt even have to explain myself this far lol.

Seriously though just because you say "dont be offended" or whatever dosnt give you a free pass to criticism, it has nothing to do with sensitivity to the issue, its only a sport lol, wheather you meant to be or not it sounded a bit blunt, so yeah your gonna hear about it ya know.

This really isnt worth the stress ya know, I'm EvenFlow for a reason, there is no hate or malice its all in good discourse, lets agree to disagree and be pals.
Bobby-B-Bonkers
11/21/08 2:16:43AM
Seems to be almost unanimous,,, Kenflo next with Alves on deck. I LOVE Bj,,,but Alves might stop him. Kenflo doesn't have a chance but he's got a lot of heart man.
Jackelope
11/22/08 6:54:34AM

Posted by EvenFlow


Posted by Jackelope


Posted by EvenFlow


Posted by Jackelope

So then Brock Lesnar could come down to 155 and wreck all the competition but never take a title shot and everything would be fine?

Really, not requiring them to make weight is .... I don't even know how to describe it without sounding like I'm insulting. It's a huge part of the fight game. Yes, guys are overweight come fight time, but there has to be a starting point. If I were you I'd just stop arguing this right now because NOBODY is going to agree with you, LOL. If they do their stock goes down big time IMO



You completely missed the point I think they should be around the weight just dont care if they make it for a non title fight and I could care less if you or anyone agrees with my opinion, at no point did I say I was right I said it was strictly opinion, so direct your nose in someones elses business if you dont like it because I dont give a crap that you think you know more than me about MMA or this topic and insinuate I'm stupid for having an opinion different from yours or whoever, get over it.



LOL.. wow... defensive much? Really- I wasn't trying to be insulting. Notice the fact that I didn't elaborate because specifically I didn't want to sound like I was insulting your opinion. I'm not sure how much more clear I could have been on that.

As Wolfenstein said (and thank you bro, wish I could dish props but gotta spread the love) I'm merely stressing the importance of the process of cutting weight and making weight for a fight. You may think 5 lbs. isn't a big difference, but it is a huge difference when guys are already cutting 20 lbs. to make weight. It is not an issue of opinion- it's an issue of fighter safety and general fairness. That's why weight classes are imposed more by the athletic commissions and not by the companies themselves.

Using diuretics is definitely a big deal since 1- It's against the rules, and 2- You get into even more fighter safety issues.

Anyway, I'm not going to press you too hard because obviously you're extremely sensitive about the issue- but believe me, weight cutting is drastically important




Yeah diuetics arnt the smartest decision, Kimbo got beat by a 205er, thats not my best example or a base argument but weight classes just arnt of much importance to me... whats wrong with that? I shouldnt even have to explain myself this far lol.

Seriously though just because you say "dont be offended" or whatever dosnt give you a free pass to criticism, it has nothing to do with sensitivity to the issue, its only a sport lol, wheather you meant to be or not it sounded a bit blunt, so yeah your gonna hear about it ya know.

This really isnt worth the stress ya know, I'm EvenFlow for a reason, there is no hate or malice its all in good discourse, lets agree to disagree and be pals.



I didn't ever think of us as anything but pals.

The only reason I get passionate about things like this is because it is important to me to see good knowledge about the sport spread.
juanez13
11/22/08 10:39:14AM
Dana said in an interview (for UFC 94) that the winner of GSp vs Penn would take on Thiago Alves. He was asked if GSP beat BJ he would go on to fight Anderson Silva, and he said the winner of the fight will have to take on Thiago first before anything else is talked about.
jawbreaker517
11/24/08 11:03:58PM
I think Alves deserves a shot. His stand-up looked really good and his takedown defense was sharp in his last three fights. I would really like to see Alves vs GSP, though. That would be a good fight.
EvenFlow
11/25/08 7:24:28AM
Another reason why I hate the weight issue is because when Thiago beat Matt everyone downplayed it as Thiago cheating or somehow disrespecting the sport because of an injury, when they were likely at the same weight at fight night. So in that sense its irrelevant just because someone was off by 3-4 pounds is just ridiculous, though I agree cutting weight is essential.

Matt knew that if Thiago won that would happen, ppl would chalk that up to being a catchweight and not a "legit ww fight" or some scapegoat like that just because he couldnt make weight from an injury, I dare any hater to cut from 190 to 170 with an injured ankle/leg, I for one comend him for saving UFC 85 and to those who take a fights injured, thats the warrior spirit.
Jackelope
11/25/08 8:21:58AM

Posted by EvenFlow

Another reason why I hate the weight issue is because when Thiago beat Matt everyone downplayed it as Thiago cheating or somehow disrespecting the sport because of an injury, when they were likely at the same weight at fight night. So in that sense its irrelevant just because someone was off by 3-4 pounds is just ridiculous, though I agree cutting weight is essential.

Matt knew that if Thiago won that would happen, ppl would chalk that up to being a catchweight and not a "legit ww fight" or some scapegoat like that just because he couldnt make weight from an injury, I dare any hater to cut from 190 to 170 with an injured ankle/leg, I for one comend him for saving UFC 85 and to those who take a fights injured, thats the warrior spirit.



LOL well you know I gotta reply to this one again, man.

The reason why its unfair for one fighter to make weight and the other not to make weight even if they weigh the same on fight night is because the one fighter had to drain himself of fluids and let his muscles cannibalize themselves while the other fighter didn't. You don't just fully recover from a weight cut in a day. It takes its toll on everyone mentally, physically, and emotionally - especially when you cut as much weight as Thiago and Hughes have to. For one fighter to have to go through that and risk not being 100% the next day and the other to just skip the whole process is completely unfair. Take a look at when Junie Browning had to make weight on TUF this season. The day the fight happened he was completely gassed because he had to fight so hard to make weight. I'm sorry man but I just don't see how you don't realize this stuff. Maybe you've never had to make weight before or even if you have maybe you didn't ever have to cut as much weight as these guys do. It is NOT fun.

I do agree that Thiago and Hughes saved UFC 85. Also, his win over Hughes was legitimate IMO, but I will still say that him not making weight is unacceptable. Shogun made weight vs. Forrest with a torn ACL! You can still ride an aerodyne in a Sauna with a screwed up ankle.

I don't hate you bro, but this issue is much bigger than you realize. You just refuse to accept facts.
cowcatcher
11/25/08 9:24:46AM
i want to chime in on the weight cutting here. i wrestled my whole life(im 32), and i coach a high school wrestling team, and the stress involved in cutting weight is more than someone can know if they havent done it. we dont let kids cut 10 lbs(except in special cases), much less the 20 that some of these fighters cut because not only is it physically too demanding on their bodies, but there is a definite descent into madness anytime someone has to cut a ton of weight. you seriously go a little nuts and start second guessing everything youve done, you think about quitting the sport completely, and you just want it to be over. once you hit the scales youre fine, but jump roping in the shower area in a sweatsuit with all the showerheads blasting hot water around you is miserable. the mental aspect of a weight cut is the worst part of the whole thing, and aside from being dehydrated and gassed, you have to somehow keep your head into whats in front of you.
basically, if someone hasnt cut weight, and im talking about 8-15 or more lbs, you dont realize what a struggle it can be, and how much of an effect it has on your body and mind so its easy to assume that its not a big deal, or guys cant do it when hurt. alves chose to fight at 170, he could have fought at MW, but he chose to try to cut the weight therefore he has a responsibility to make the weight period, hurt or not, and if he cant he needs to move up to another weight class. hughes went through all the agony, and believe me the last few pounds are BY FAR the hardest mentally and physically, and alves didnt so he didnt have the "drain" that hughes went through for the last few lbs, and that makes a world of difference. a few pounds doesnt sound like much by itself, but after cutting 10 lbs first, 4 lbs can seem like 20.
Jackelope
11/25/08 1:03:23PM

Posted by cowcatcher

i want to chime in on the weight cutting here. i wrestled my whole life(im 32), and i coach a high school wrestling team, and the stress involved in cutting weight is more than someone can know if they havent done it. we dont let kids cut 10 lbs(except in special cases), much less the 20 that some of these fighters cut because not only is it physically too demanding on their bodies, but there is a definite descent into madness anytime someone has to cut a ton of weight. you seriously go a little nuts and start second guessing everything youve done, you think about quitting the sport completely, and you just want it to be over. once you hit the scales youre fine, but jump roping in the shower area in a sweatsuit with all the showerheads blasting hot water around you is miserable. the mental aspect of a weight cut is the worst part of the whole thing, and aside from being dehydrated and gassed, you have to somehow keep your head into whats in front of you.
basically, if someone hasnt cut weight, and im talking about 8-15 or more lbs, you dont realize what a struggle it can be, and how much of an effect it has on your body and mind so its easy to assume that its not a big deal, or guys cant do it when hurt. alves chose to fight at 170, he could have fought at MW, but he chose to try to cut the weight therefore he has a responsibility to make the weight period, hurt or not, and if he cant he needs to move up to another weight class. hughes went through all the agony, and believe me the last few pounds are BY FAR the hardest mentally and physically, and alves didnt so he didnt have the "drain" that hughes went through for the last few lbs, and that makes a world of difference. a few pounds doesnt sound like much by itself, but after cutting 10 lbs first, 4 lbs can seem like 20.



Exactly. I was going to get into the mental aspect of weight cutting but I figured maybe it's a lost cause. Cutting weight is by far one of the most taxing things you can do mentally, physically, and emotionally. It is hell.
EvenFlow
11/25/08 7:07:24PM

Posted by Jackelope
LOL well you know I gotta reply to this one again, man.

The reason why its unfair for one fighter to make weight and the other not to make weight even if they weigh the same on fight night is because the one fighter had to drain himself of fluids and let his muscles cannibalize themselves while the other fighter didn't. You don't just fully recover from a weight cut in a day. It takes its toll on everyone mentally, physically, and emotionally - especially when you cut as much weight as Thiago and Hughes have to. For one fighter to have to go through that and risk not being 100% the next day and the other to just skip the whole process is completely unfair. Take a look at when Junie Browning had to make weight on TUF this season. The day the fight happened he was completely gassed because he had to fight so hard to make weight. I'm sorry man but I just don't see how you don't realize this stuff. Maybe you've never had to make weight before or even if you have maybe you didn't ever have to cut as much weight as these guys do. It is NOT fun.







I realize it your just not really listening, I think its important to cut, but in the big scheme of things its just not important to me, again I never said I was right I just dont care too much, and besides Thiago was at 174 at weigh ins he still went thru all the rigors of weight cutting and he was injured when he did it so it was even harder for him, do people expect him to drop the fight from a weight issue, again I thank both of them for taking this fight and I could care less because 85 might have been cancelled.





Posted by Jackalope
I do agree that Thiago and Hughes saved UFC 85. Also, his win over Hughes was legitimate IMO, but I will still say that him not making weight is unacceptable. Shogun made weight vs. Forrest with a torn ACL! You can still ride an aerodyne in a Sauna with a screwed up ankle.

I don't hate you bro, but this issue is much bigger than you realize. You just refuse to accept facts.





I never refused that weight cutting isnt important or that making weight wasnt important, like I said in the big scheme of things its just not important to me. I understand your point of view and respect it, its hard to speculate if Thiago could have done more cutting with an injured ankle, maybe he could have done more to cut but my opinion stands on this and so is yours I assume.
Jackelope
11/25/08 8:17:03PM

Posted by EvenFlow


Posted by Jackelope
LOL well you know I gotta reply to this one again, man.

The reason why its unfair for one fighter to make weight and the other not to make weight even if they weigh the same on fight night is because the one fighter had to drain himself of fluids and let his muscles cannibalize themselves while the other fighter didn't. You don't just fully recover from a weight cut in a day. It takes its toll on everyone mentally, physically, and emotionally - especially when you cut as much weight as Thiago and Hughes have to. For one fighter to have to go through that and risk not being 100% the next day and the other to just skip the whole process is completely unfair. Take a look at when Junie Browning had to make weight on TUF this season. The day the fight happened he was completely gassed because he had to fight so hard to make weight. I'm sorry man but I just don't see how you don't realize this stuff. Maybe you've never had to make weight before or even if you have maybe you didn't ever have to cut as much weight as these guys do. It is NOT fun.









I realize it your just not really listening, I think its important to cut, but in the big scheme of things its just not important to me, again I never said I was right I just dont care too much, and besides Thiago was at 174 at weigh ins he still went thru all the rigors of weight cutting and he was injured when he did it so it was even harder for him, do people expect him to drop the fight from a weight issue, again I thank both of them for taking this fight and I could care less because 85 might have been cancelled.





Posted by Jackalope
I do agree that Thiago and Hughes saved UFC 85. Also, his win over Hughes was legitimate IMO, but I will still say that him not making weight is unacceptable. Shogun made weight vs. Forrest with a torn ACL! You can still ride an aerodyne in a Sauna with a screwed up ankle.

I don't hate you bro, but this issue is much bigger than you realize. You just refuse to accept facts.





I never refused that weight cutting isnt important or that making weight wasnt important, like I said in the big scheme of things its just not important to me. I understand your point of view and respect it, its hard to speculate if Thiago could have done more cutting with an injured ankle, maybe he could have done more to cut but my opinion stands on this and so is yours I assume.



LOL... well, I'll give it to you- you stick to your guns
Pookie
11/25/08 8:55:35PM
I smell whitewidow on this thread...
EvenFlow
11/25/08 10:46:14PM

Posted by Jackelope


LOL... well, I'll give it to you- you stick to your guns



little confused....whats funny? im not telling you your wrong or being stubborn, i was force fed humble pie but still dont care about it, oh well...ya know? if you dont wanna understand my opinion thats cool but nobody said you had to..............ya know
slapshot
11/26/08 3:27:28AM
155 Vs Frankie Edgar BJ is the champ but none of the other fighters come close to Frankie's skillz.
gsquat
11/26/08 9:56:27AM
Alves should be first. He'll have been waiting longer.
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