UFC Weight-in system flawed and should be changed.

MMAPlayground.com » MMA General » General MMA Talk » UFC Weight-in system flawed and should be changed.
chris91301
9/6/07 6:16:19PM
We all know that top guys in 205 weight class do not come into the ring at 205, they are around 220/230. This kind of thing is in all weight classes. Guys lose weight for the weight-in and then gain it back up after prior to the fight.

I think in all fairness of the UFC idea of best fighter pound 4 pound should require a second weight-in just a few minutes before the fight. If they crack down on steroids they should also fix the weight-in.

Another issue with losing weight fast and gaining it back up is that it is incredibly taxing on a body and is unhealthy borderline steroids. A person with weight of 205 is disadvantaged against someone who is 230. So now a lighter fighter has to drop weight for the lesser weight class in order to stay competitive because in a ring he will have to go up against someone who has over 20lbs on them.

Personally I do not like Michael Bespin, but I do see why he wants to drop to 185.
cowcatcher
9/6/07 6:25:37PM
many of these guys have been cutting since at least high school when they wrestled/competed in MA tournaments, hell i cut in middle school for tourneys, so i dont see it as super taxing on the body when youve done it for 10 plus years. thats always been the way it is in combat sports and the way it always will be.
pv3Hpv3p
9/6/07 6:38:57PM

Posted by cowcatcher

many of these guys have been cutting since at least high school when they wrestled/competed in MA tournaments, hell i cut in middle school for tourneys, so i dont see it as super taxing on the body when youve done it for 10 plus years. thats always been the way it is in combat sports and the way it always will be.



Agreed... While it might not be exactly fair, it's there and can't be ignored... IMO, a lot of fighters that start fighting part time, and then switch to a full time schedule will realize how much extra weight they are carrying...
richieb19
9/6/07 6:39:06PM
There is nothing flawed or unfair about this. Albeit it seems weird, it's been around for so long in boxing, wrestling, etc. I see no point in changing this.
TOMMYAYO05
9/6/07 6:44:27PM
i disagree this is not flawed at all thats the way its always been and they need to keep it that way or else they would probably get rid of the lightweights and get a superheavyweight because the guys would be so big
Mastodon2
9/6/07 6:46:50PM
It's not an unfair system, and as Bas says ( I think its on one of the Bushido events, possibly Bushido four ot five when Carlos Newton make the decision to go up a weight class), weight cutting is pretty equal, cause you might cut a up to a stone in weight, but putting the weight back on isn't quite as simple as drinking loads of water before the fight.

It's a fair system, about as fair as weight systems can get. The only way to make it more fair would be to have them weigh in right before they step into the ring, which would mean that everyone had to actually be say, 205lbs, and if they had to cut to make weight, then they'd get trashed by the 205lbers who wernt at all dehydrated. However, this would be expensive, and time consuming at live events.

It's been done this way in loads of sports for years, this is the first time I've ever seen anyone complain about it. It doesn't need to be changed because imo its not really flawed. The fact that the bigger fighters in each weight division have to cut more than the smaller fighters takes away their size advantage to a degree. It's a pretty fair system.
chris91301
9/6/07 7:11:10PM

Posted by pv3Hpv3p


Posted by cowcatcher

many of these guys have been cutting since at least high school when they wrestled/competed in MA tournaments, hell i cut in middle school for tourneys, so i dont see it as super taxing on the body when youve done it for 10 plus years. thats always been the way it is in combat sports and the way it always will be.



Agreed... While it might not be exactly fair, it's there and can't be ignored... IMO, a lot of fighters that start fighting part time, and then switch to a full time schedule will realize how much extra weight they are carrying...



I just want you to consider this concept. You are Michael Bespin for example and you fight in LHW because you weight exactly 205 which is the max for this class.
All of a sudden mirco cro cop or fedor emln. decides they will fight at 205. We all know these guys weight 220 to 230 and you have to compete with them keeping in mind that if you lose then your career is over because top fighters tend to be favorites, not guys who cant make it.

How would you feel about this situation from that perspective?
bayonetxwork
9/6/07 8:05:27PM
it is completely fair IMO. that is unless your a small lightweight because you have no other weight class to cut to(atleast in the UFC). weight cutting is a skill, and many of these guys have perfected it over time. if your small for your weight, diet, cardio, do whatever you need to do so you can cut down to the next weight class if you feel thats what you need to win.
grappler0000
9/6/07 8:19:37PM
I don't see this as being an unfair advantage to anyone. As a fighter, you have the option of cutting weight or not. You should do whatever you feel is advantageous for your situation. You can cut weight and be stronger than your competition (although it's probably just an exqualizer, since others do the same), but can drain you if done improperly...or you can fight at your natural weight and give up some size, but feel fresher. I'll also add that it's probably a mental advantage knowing you don't have to cut weight. Like many others, I don't see it as being unfair in either direction, especially since it has worked this way for many of the combat sports.
Irish209
9/6/07 9:20:12PM
i get what hes saying but i just think natural LHW's should just drop to middleweight and switch the misfortune on those bastards LOL!!!
Pitbull09
9/6/07 10:10:07PM
I think its lame how sherk dominates the lightweigh division this way but its still fair since both fighters have the opprotunity to do it.
ocho-cinco
9/6/07 10:26:42PM
Flawed? It's not Flawed, thats just the way they do it, and have always done it. Yeah guys may be at a bit of a disadvantage if the other guy comes in heavier, but almost everyone cuts weight so it balances out. These are tough guys, and a bit of a weight difference is a minor excuse for a loss, that none of them will use. Plus if your not happy in your weight class you can always change, and that makes for some excitement and creates some buzz. For example, I can't wait to see how Swick does at WW. The weigh in system may not be perfect, but it aint bad.
The_Grim_Reaper
9/6/07 10:36:58PM

Posted by chris91301

We all know that top guys in 205 weight class do not come into the ring at 205, they are around 220/230. This kind of thing is in all weight classes. Guys lose weight for the weight-in and then gain it back up after prior to the fight.

I think in all fairness of the UFC idea of best fighter pound 4 pound should require a second weight-in just a few minutes before the fight. If they crack down on steroids they should also fix the weight-in.

Another issue with losing weight fast and gaining it back up is that it is incredibly taxing on a body and is unhealthy borderline steroids. A person with weight of 205 is disadvantaged against someone who is 230. So now a lighter fighter has to drop weight for the lesser weight class in order to stay competitive because in a ring he will have to go up against someone who has over 20lbs on them.

Personally I do not like Michael Bespin, but I do see why he wants to drop to 185.




omg this is complete garbage.........your telling me fighters cut 25 pounds to get to 305 and then gain back 25 pounds in a matter 24 hours????? yeah this is just complete garbage......i don't even know what possesed you to actually write something like this!!
Svartorm
9/6/07 11:20:47PM
He exaggerated the number a bit, but most guys can drop 15lbs if they're HW or LHW, and some of the guys better at cutting can do 20lbs. Watch the behind the scenes stuff on the UFC DVDs and you'll see how they go about it.
JimiMak
9/6/07 11:41:01PM

The only thing I have to say, is that i hate weight cutting. As far as I'm concerned, any fighter should be able to step on a scale or piss in a cup on his way to or from the ring.
SicJits
9/6/07 11:48:29PM

Posted by Svartorm

He exaggerated the number a bit, but most guys can drop 15lbs if they're HW or LHW, and some of the guys better at cutting can do 20lbs. Watch the behind the scenes stuff on the UFC DVDs and you'll see how they go about it.




MOST, is the key word. for example Sean Sherk stated that he walks around at 180-182, and thats 25 lbs! Not only is this to much of a percentage of his body weight, but it also robs the brain of fluid it needs which in turn makes it much easier for brain injuries due to strikes. I think there should be a maximum amount of % of body weight to lose so someone doesn't get hurt trying to be to competitive. Or maybe that explains the cutting steroid nandrolne........hmmm we'll see come Halloween
Svartorm
9/7/07 12:00:27AM
If I remember correctly, Ohio Athletic Commision had a rule in place where you had a second weight in, and couldn't be more than 10lbs over your first weigh in, but they waved the rule for UFC. I think that rule makes sense, as it ensures the fights go on, but keeps a fighter from dehydrating himself too much before his fight.

I like the idea of the weigh-in beforehand, because it gives a window of opportunity for a fighter to cut that extra weight if they have to and rest from the effort. If they weighed the guy on the way down to the cage and hes a lb over, what do you do? Cancel the fight? Have the crowd wait while he runs laps and sweats it off, and then fights the other guy while hes exhausted?
chris91301
9/7/07 12:17:41AM

Posted by Svartorm

If I remember correctly, Ohio Athletic Commision had a rule in place where you had a second weight in, and couldn't be more than 10lbs over your first weigh in, but they waved the rule for UFC. I think that rule makes sense, as it ensures the fights go on, but keeps a fighter from dehydrating himself too much before his fight.

I like the idea of the weigh-in beforehand, because it gives a window of opportunity for a fighter to cut that extra weight if they have to and rest from the effort. If they weighed the guy on the way down to the cage and hes a lb over, what do you do? Cancel the fight? Have the crowd wait while he runs laps and sweats it off, and then fights the other guy while hes exhausted?



well that just means if a person doesnt make the weight their victory may not count as much or they lose the winning $ bonus? I am sure Dana White can come up with some ideas. If I remember correctly there was a championship fight in the past where one of the contenders did not make the weight which meant if he wins he does not get the championship belt because of that, still had a fight though.
Jackelope
9/7/07 12:27:41AM
Cutting weight has been around forever. I only ever had to cut 2 or 3 lbs. during wrestling, but still... I didn't have a problem wrestling a guy I knew had cut 10 or 15 lbs.

If Hendo can dominate 205 barely weighing in at that himself then obviously it's not too big of a deal.
Svartorm
9/7/07 12:46:10AM

Posted by chris91301


Posted by Svartorm

If I remember correctly, Ohio Athletic Commision had a rule in place where you had a second weight in, and couldn't be more than 10lbs over your first weigh in, but they waved the rule for UFC. I think that rule makes sense, as it ensures the fights go on, but keeps a fighter from dehydrating himself too much before his fight.

I like the idea of the weigh-in beforehand, because it gives a window of opportunity for a fighter to cut that extra weight if they have to and rest from the effort. If they weighed the guy on the way down to the cage and hes a lb over, what do you do? Cancel the fight? Have the crowd wait while he runs laps and sweats it off, and then fights the other guy while hes exhausted?



well that just means if a person doesnt make the weight their victory may not count as much or they lose the winning $ bonus? I am sure Dana White can come up with some ideas. If I remember correctly there was a championship fight in the past where one of the contenders did not make the weight which meant if he wins he does not get the championship belt because of that, still had a fight though.



Well, for one thing, its not Danas choice to make, its the Athletic Commisions. If he wants to run a sanctioned sport, he has to use their rules.

The fight was Silva vs. Lutter, and having your main event suddenly become a non-title fight isn't good for business.
grappler0000
9/7/07 1:50:06AM

Posted by SicJits


Posted by Svartorm

He exaggerated the number a bit, but most guys can drop 15lbs if they're HW or LHW, and some of the guys better at cutting can do 20lbs. Watch the behind the scenes stuff on the UFC DVDs and you'll see how they go about it.




MOST, is the key word. for example Sean Sherk stated that he walks around at 180-182, and thats 25 lbs! Not only is this to much of a percentage of his body weight, but it also robs the brain of fluid it needs which in turn makes it much easier for brain injuries due to strikes. I think there should be a maximum amount of % of body weight to lose so someone doesn't get hurt trying to be to competitive. Or maybe that explains the cutting steroid nandrolne........hmmm we'll see come Halloween



I don't necessarily disagree with a maximum % gain/loss...you are taking Sherk's statement out of context though. When he is walking around at 182 pounds, it's not the week of the fight. While he is training with heavy weights, he'll keep on the extra pounds. As a fight gets closer, he will change his diet, cardio, and workout regimen to get as lean as possible, but without starving his body too much. By the time the fight's a day away, he will then have to lose 5-10 pounds of water weight. That's still a decent amount, but it's not nearly as dramatic as you are advertising.
Aether
9/7/07 2:05:18AM
this really isn't as taxing on the body as you make it out to be. Fighters don't cut the weight the night before the weigh in by sitting in a sauna wrapped in garbage bags for 24 straight hours, it's usually done in smaller doses over a more extended period of time, several days to a week or so depending on just how much weight they're cutting. It's also very rare for fighters to cut more than about 15 pounds. I've heard of maybe a half a dozen fighters cutting weight regularly in the weight range you indicated. It's not that big of an advantage as other people have said, you sacrifice a certain degree of mobility in exchange for a few extra pounds, and even if you ARE cutting 20 pounds, the other guy is probably cutting 10-15, which will ultimately only give you a 5-10 pound advantage of mostly water-weight.

It's really not a very big deal at all. skill matters a lot more than 5 pounds of water. Fighters like Fedor and Henderson regularly fight people who outweigh them by 20+ pounds. This is especially true in the heavyweight division where you can see gaps ranging from 40 pounds in the UFC to literally hundreds of pounds overseas where there is no regulation about weight classes. Honestly this is the kind of thing that only fighters should be able to complain about, since they're the ones who have to deal with it, and I've never heard of any fighter in any combat sport complain about this system.
Rush
9/7/07 9:24:51AM
IMO, cutting weight is a cause and effect issue. The reason people cut, I think, is because nobody ever ends up being the exact weight at the top of the weight class. Therefore you have to shed a few pounds.

However, because the weight classes are 15 lbs apart, you get people that say, hey, if I could cut 10-5 lbs, that would me I am heavier. It's a funny correlation that the weight classes are 15lbs apart and the typical max for cutting weight for most fighters is 15 lbs.

The nature of the weigh in demands cutting weight. If they made guys weigh in the day of or right before a fight, there would be a lot of canceled fights. Most people probably agree that one or two pounds doesn't make a difference, but you need to draw a line in the sand somewhere.

IMO, if you want to see less weight cut, then you would have to see more weight divisions with a smaller window of weight.
roadking95th
9/8/07 12:51:58AM
I don't see a problem with cutting the weight. Usually only the last 5 or so pounds is water weight. When I was in high school, I wrestled at 103lbs my junior year. I came into that season weighing 124lbs and that was after a season of cross country. Now, granted I didn't take CC as seriously as I should have, I used it for conditioning for the upcoming wrestling season. Once CC was over, I changed my diet. I would cut down to the 108lb range and lose the last 5lbs over a day and a half before matches. As far as weighing in before fights, it wouldn't be a big deal. When I wrestled in tournaments over two days you could only weigh 2lbs heavier at the start of the second day. I never had a problem with that.

Most of the weight cutting is getting into PRIME condition. Take a couple of weeks off heavy training and see what your "walk around" weight becomes.
cowcatcher
9/8/07 1:42:39AM

Posted by Rush

IMO, cutting weight is a cause and effect issue. The reason people cut, I think, is because nobody ever ends up being the exact weight at the top of the weight class. Therefore you have to shed a few pounds.

However, because the weight classes are 15 lbs apart, you get people that say, hey, if I could cut 10-5 lbs, that would me I am heavier. It's a funny correlation that the weight classes are 15lbs apart and the typical max for cutting weight for most fighters is 15 lbs.

The nature of the weigh in demands cutting weight. If they made guys weigh in the day of or right before a fight, there would be a lot of canceled fights. Most people probably agree that one or two pounds doesn't make a difference, but you need to draw a line in the sand somewhere.

IMO, if you want to see less weight cut, then you would have to see more weight divisions with a smaller window of weight.



good post, except that with more weight classes you have guys bouncing from class to class to get the fights they want and its harder to rate them in their "home" weight class, much less make the matches.
Rush
9/8/07 2:56:50PM

Posted by cowcatcher


good post, except that with more weight classes you have guys bouncing from class to class to get the fights they want and its harder to rate them in their "home" weight class, much less make the matches.




I thought about this problem. I don't think it would be a problem making matches until they get to the top 5 or so where title fights become an issue. I think an easy way to prevent bouncing around would be that you cannot fight for a title unless you have so many wins (maybe even consecutive) in a weight class.
VictimSix
9/9/07 3:08:22AM

Posted by Aether
It's not that big of an advantage as other people have said, you sacrifice a certain degree of mobility in exchange for a few extra pounds.....

It's really not a very big deal at all. skill matters a lot more than 5 pounds of water. Fighters like Fedor and Henderson regularly fight people who outweigh them by 20+ pounds.


I have to disagree to an extent. If you know how to cut weight and have time to prepare you are not sacrificing anything only gaining. In shape before a hair cut I'll come in at 154 lbs but I hate to grapple at that weight because the advantage I gain at 140lbs is more then noticable. Never had mobility or cardio issues. I also don't have a wrestling backround so when a natural 140lbs wrestler has his hands on me I almost always feel stronger and never in danger of being bullied around even though I'm the same weight as him (give or take a few pounds depending on how early or late into the day it is).

Also Henderson had a hard time controling Rampage. Even in the clinch which is Hendo's strong point. I honestly think some of his control problems where due to the fact that even though they both came in at 204lbs he was fighting a larger man.

For the most part I agree it's not that big of a deal BUT the guys that can cut 15-20lbs effectively without damaging mobility and cardio have and upperhand when it comes to certain fight situations.
scobac
9/14/07 2:06:36PM
Weight cutting is a facet of mma, seems unfair but the bottom line is that it is one of the many areas of mma you have to be good at to be a well rounded fighter, not as much emphasis as the ground aspect, the striking aspect, the "heart factor" but none the less you have to put it all together to be well rounded, like all other facets of the game some are just better than others.
ColdCutCombo
9/15/07 5:23:23AM
HW: 220-300
LH: 195-220
MW: 180-195
WW: 165-180
LW: 150-165

i dont care for the midgets at 145 or less or the fatasses at 300+
Related Topics